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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Discussion: Local in 0.0

First post
Author
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#81 - 2015-06-06 19:35:56 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Who gives a **** about null sec ratters? Why aren't we talking about the impacts of perfect local intel on all the other aspects of pvp in Kspace? Make all local chats in Kspace like Wspace, and make locator agents work only once every two hours or so. People talk about wanting to make EVE big again, well this would be a giant leap forward in that direction.


Current system:

Scout enters system.
"X in local, Y are WTs, Z are suspect. This is here, that is there, looks like there's something happening over there."

Your system:

Scout enters system.
"There's A on scan at X, and B on scan at Y. Give me Z minutes to work out wtf is going on." Several minutes later... "Okay, they were all friendly, apart from B, who killed me."

You wouldn't make EVE big, you'd remove a brilliant tool for creating content at the drop of a hat, and drag the game to a snail's pace. There's a reason nobody made a Subsim Online, and it's because it would be boring as ****.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-06-06 22:41:06 UTC
Colonel Tosh wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I've enjoyed watching people complain about the fact that they can't catch someone who Is watching local and reacts within 5 seconds in one sentence, and in the next make some snide remark about AFK farmers.


So let me ask you a simple question.

Do you believe it is balanced in the most general sense of the word to be able to see a player entering your system without visual / dscan confirmation, before that player him/herself has even loaded grid?


Yes. It works the same way for everyone, and the time it takes to load is both negligible and dependent on your hardware setup.

If someone is 100% at their keyboard and reacts as soon as you hit local they should be able to evade the initial tackle attempt. You're dodging all of my points, foremost being that if you make it almost a foregone conclusion for a ceptor to tackle someone ratting in an anom no matter how alert that player is, you will have less people making ISK in null, and thus less content for you and everyone else.

Ratting ships die constantly, a simple glance at zkill confirms this.

The notion that a ratting Ishtar that's probably passive shield or cap rigged can inside 15 seconds refit to something viable for PvP is questionable...to expect him to go up against a blob or even a small gang of unknown size and composition in a HAC that is not even good for solo'ing; that defies the limits of absurdity.

And to say that wormholers PvE in PvP fits is bullshit. I spent enough time browsing fits on the wormhole subforum to know that there are very specific setups for running sleeper sites...you can always refit with some PvP modules but it will hardly be an optimal setup.

Crosi already pretty much trashed your argument. You want a guaranteed ability to gank null PvE ships and that would be terrible for the game. You should want MORE people in null and WH space, not less. That means that people who don't have highsec incursion alts should be able to make ISK where they live rather than facing a mechanical risk v reward balance that makes a steady income impossible.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#83 - 2015-06-07 00:03:01 UTC
Nobody has even mentioned the fact that ratters may already be tackled by rats, and may already be taking agro from 5 to 30 rats. Many of them may be at half shields when you catch them.
Colonel Tosh
The MorningStar. Syndicate
#84 - 2015-06-07 11:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Colonel Tosh
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
A long but effort filled response.


I think you are misunderstanding the idea that increased risk is not being the same as guaranteed tackle. Yes, my motivation to post started with some after effects of botting Russians, but essentially I've always felt that 0.0 security space offers too much security for "supposedly" the most cutthroat area of EVE.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#85 - 2015-06-07 14:43:48 UTC
Colonel Tosh wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
A long but effort filled response.


I think you are misunderstanding the idea that increased risk is not being the same as guaranteed tackle. Yes, my motivation to post started with some after effects of botting Russians, but essentially I've always felt that 0.0 security space offers too much security for "supposedly" the most cutthroat area of EVE.


Report bots, try to kill bears, but in the end its not your job to worry about other people making isk (unless you are good at it and make it so, which would not seem to be the case).

It would be much easier to increase the bears risk in null if you L2P rather than begging for an arbitrary mechanic change in your favor that you cannot properly justify except through some misplaced sense of entitlement and disgust that other players in the game have to make isk outside of wormholes and while doing so can protect themselves by being vigilant...

Keep 'hunting' though, im sure you will soon rack up enough glorious killmails against semi afk people to satisfy whatever drives you.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-06-07 21:32:36 UTC
Colonel Tosh wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
A long but effort filled response.


I think you are misunderstanding the idea that increased risk is not being the same as guaranteed tackle. Yes, my motivation to post started with some after effects of botting Russians, but essentially I've always felt that 0.0 security space offers too much security for "supposedly" the most cutthroat area of EVE.


And my response is that killboards and the prevalence of highsec/FW farming alts amongst nullbears tell a different story. The risk/reward on null ratting is fine; introduce too much risk and you'll just reduce content in null altogether.

I would argue that wormhole space is more cutthroat than null due to precisely the lack of local, and the rewards match that risk. I've never met a poor wormholer.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#87 - 2015-06-08 01:53:30 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#88 - 2015-06-09 10:30:52 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Nobody has even mentioned the fact that ratters may already be tackled by rats, and may already be taking agro from 5 to 30 rats. Many of them may be at half shields when you catch them.



https://zkillboard.com/kill/47139099/

ratters do die to rat even before dps arrives sometimes^^
Eridon Hermetz
Jump 2 Beacon
Death Legion of Capybaras
#89 - 2015-06-09 12:00:57 UTC
ive never got any problem to get target when hunting in null , the only one problem iz the delay betwenn you jump in/appear in local before you load the grid : its really too long
i can jump and wait 5 sec before loading the grid and do nothing because 'm appear in local as soon as i've jump
Nicola Romanoff
Tannhauser C-Beam
#90 - 2015-06-09 16:31:53 UTC
I am quite happy with the local as it is, although perhaps the delay should be based on a module you fit on your ship, if you want local to be delayed to your presence then you need to sacrifice a slot in order to obtain that delay.

I live in null and whilst I am new ish to the pvp aspects I think that showing up in local is advantageous for both people, you as the pvper gets to see who is in system, the pve person gets to see who is in system. It isn’t that no one gets kills in null sec, sure some people are ultra paranoid and stay aligned etc but some don’t. So it is down to your skills against theirs.

Even a low number like 5 seconds gives an unfair advantage to the pvp person as if in a captor you will be on them before that time is up, I would say that in most cases of aggression the aggresse would see it coming. I think your system gives all the advantage to the aggressor.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2015-06-09 21:25:44 UTC
It's disingenuous to try to make this about bots. Bots will always be faster than even the most actively aware players. If you change the mechanics to make bots catchable, real players will be punished even more. Besides, you don't punish botters by shooting their ships; you punish them by reporting the cheaters to CCP.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#92 - 2015-06-15 21:52:16 UTC
Nicola Romanoff wrote:
I am quite happy with the local as it is, although perhaps the delay should be based on a module you fit on your ship, if you want local to be delayed to your presence then you need to sacrifice a slot in order to obtain that delay.

I live in null and whilst I am new ish to the pvp aspects I think that showing up in local is advantageous for both people, you as the pvper gets to see who is in system, the pve person gets to see who is in system. It isn’t that no one gets kills in null sec, sure some people are ultra paranoid and stay aligned etc but some don’t. So it is down to your skills against theirs.

Even a low number like 5 seconds gives an unfair advantage to the pvp person as if in a captor you will be on them before that time is up, I would say that in most cases of aggression the aggresse would see it coming. I think your system gives all the advantage to the aggressor.


This.

Either keep local as it, or do away with it entirely. Both options keep both players on an even playing field.

OP's suggestion favors only one side of the equation.
Waylan Yutani
SkyLark Insurgency
#93 - 2015-07-15 11:33:15 UTC
This debate is as old as eve itself.

I have always been in favour of removing local channel in low and and nullsec. I think there should be better ways of finding players and killing them as there should be better ways of protecting yourself from those that want to kill you.

local channels work as an instant intell channel for the ratters/miners/pvpers. If CCP removes local channels, both parties are at a disadvantage.

Instead I'd like to see a revamp of the scanning system, where modules (both ship based and structure) comes into play and maybe add new skills that gives bonuses to the scanning abilities of the ship your in ("AWACS" operators comes to mind) The eve community by large has always found new and exciting ways to adapt to changes in new eden (after the initial sh*tstorm has been unleashed ofc).


I think it's about adding gaming content for both sides that could add new interesting roles to a fleet/gang composition (be it a mining fleet or roaming gang)
Sheltar Haarmen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2015-07-15 20:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheltar Haarmen
The OP"s attitude is wrong on the very basic level. It"s the "null is too safe" argument.

You see, you are assuming that nullsec is supposed to be some kind of Somali waters while in reality it never intended to be such. If you and your gang find it difficult too pass unnoticed and gank people that are actually holding Sov in a constellation because you are reported a few systems back on intel channels. then it works as intended. If someone pays attention to local and manages to get his battleship into a warp in that 10 sec window then he deserves to get away.

What you are doing is actually forcing a game mechanic that would further allow small gangs or even solo pilots to harass and disrupt activities of larger entities, which is ridiculous because you know, nobody gave them the space for free

They worked hard to earn something they can call their own home, so obviously it comes with some perks in terms of security.

And if you want to introduce null-dwellers to the concept of risk then Eve gives you plenty of tools. Bring the big guns. Camp the system. Trap their assets. Eventually take their Sov.

But for ffs dont expect to make people living in a heart of their empires miserable with a few mill ship and a bunch of punks waiting on the other side of the cyno.

To wrap this up:

If you are choosing sov space as a destination for your roam expect to have a hard time ambushing people in a fight they find unfair. They are at home and you are an intruder, YOU being in disadvantage works as intended, I dont know where did you get an idea game mechanics should favor gettimg easy kills anywhere near player - controlled areas while being solo/ small gamg
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2015-07-17 05:35:41 UTC
More in favour of a bubble system. Say x au across that adds pilots to local as they come in range. add deployable scanner that can be anchored at celestials like gates planets stations that'll feed more Intel. Even fittable local link scanners would do. Intel should not be free, tons of was to provide local functionality with a little trade off.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2015-07-17 05:44:16 UTC
Sheltar Haarmen wrote:
The OP"s attitude is wrong on the very basic level. It"s the "null is too safe" argument.

You see, you are assuming that nullsec is supposed to be some kind of Somali waters while in reality it never intended to be such. If you and your gang find it difficult too pass unnoticed and gank people that are actually holding Sov in a constellation because you are reported a few systems back on intel channels. then it works as intended. If someone pays attention to local and manages to get his battleship into a warp in that 10 sec window then he deserves to get away.

What you are doing is actually forcing a game mechanic that would further allow small gangs or even solo pilots to harass and disrupt activities of larger entities, which is ridiculous because you know, nobody gave them the space for free

They worked hard to earn something they can call their own home, so obviously it comes with some perks in terms of security.

And if you want to introduce null-dwellers to the concept of risk then Eve gives you plenty of tools. Bring the big guns. Camp the system. Trap their assets. Eventually take their Sov.

But for ffs dont expect to make people living in a heart of their empires miserable with a few mill ship and a bunch of punks waiting on the other side of the cyno.

To wrap this up:

If you are choosing sov space as a destination for your roam expect to have a hard time ambushing people in a fight they find unfair. They are at home and you are an intruder, YOU being in disadvantage works as intended, I dont know where did you get an idea game mechanics should favor gettimg easy kills anywhere near player - controlled areas while being solo/ small gamg

Null is supposed to be what you make it. If you want your home to be safe then you should make it safe. If you want intel then you should provide the Intel yourself. In null with local you have the safest space in game. Safer than a newbie system, safer than high, low and WH space. Given local was never designed to be a perfect EWS I doubt null was supposed to be as safe as it is.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)