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Warfare & Tactics

 
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A thought about Boosters:
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Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#81 - 2015-07-15 14:22:29 UTC
pushdogg wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
takedoom wrote:
Who is going to use a combat booster then? No one. The idea of on grid boosters, weapon timers, suspect timers, ect will just kill another important aspect of the game.



People that are not risk averse muppets will use them.


No, as has already been said, they will just put up their OGB for a Falcon alt.


Funny ccp has given us plenty of options to counter that(implants and mods).....there is no counter to booster alts .....except a booster alt.....even in gang combat this holds true. That is what is flawed.


Falcon is just one of the force recon options. Any of them can ruin your day.
El Taron
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-07-15 15:29:03 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Marlin Spikes wrote:
Too much credit is given to boosting alts. Although they add an edge to the fight, either side can use them. My opinion is that good pilots generally have boosting alts and bad pilots don't. If you want to level the playing field, get another account and train up a boosting alt. Problem fixed.


No.

Links are a HUGE edge in solo and small gang; accepting them as a requirement for competition in those arenas has a chilling effect on 1v1 and small gang encounters and establishes yet another barrier of entry for newer players wanting to do something other than blob warfare. If they are going to remain part of the game they need to appear on killboards and have a risk level appropriate to their rewards, especially if someone makes a habit of dragging their T3 win button all over hostile space.


That.

Marlin's comment is completely wrong. Links are a huge bonus, and that bonus increases per pilot in the fleet because it's applied to each one.

Bad pilots appear decent with links even though they're using a pay to win strategy by boxing a risk free alt.

At a minimum we need to see them going suspect and have a weapons timer to have at least some risk attached to using them, although personally I think they should be on grid.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#83 - 2015-07-15 15:35:48 UTC
Everyone in eve is pay to win. Well, apart from the whiners in this thread who are pay to lose.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-07-15 16:51:00 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position.


Example:

I'm sitting in a medium plex.

You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played.

I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot.


That will be the new reality.

Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either.
99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts)


So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now. Cool



You really don't understand why this mentality is bad for a game do you?




When I started in low sec - I was a delusional scrub just like you.

Then I realized that it is the 'I wanna play a solo game within an MMO - Imma cry to CCP' mentality that is bad for the game and adapted.




Apparently you're still a delusional scrub. An alt arms race has nothing to do with this being an MMO. This is the only MMO I have ever heard of where the outcomes of so many contests are determined by who has bought more accounts and can multibox them effectively. That has nothing to do with skill, or tactics, or intelligence. It's nothing more than "Here is my credit card info CCP now give me the victories please."

Use a Falcon alt all you want. You'll kill me once, I will watchlist both toons and if you ever see me again I'll have real human players waiting to sort your little trump card. Hell as it stands now links don't bother me, because I know which systems you scum hang out in and avoid you if I actually want good fights. But what you don't seem to realize is how bad your mentality of "win at all costs" is for a GAME which lives or dies based on its ability to entertain the players.

If you turn the game into a continuous exercise in risk-averse deck stacking, the content level goes down. It's that simple. People will stop fighting you if they know you have links, or a falcon alt, or will drop Archons on a small gang scrap if you get in trouble. They will only engage if they can out-compete you in the escalation game, at which point the tables turn and your risk aversion keeps you docked up until they move on and you can find someone new to decloak your Falcon on.

I don't see why you think it is skillful to have a "make my ship 25% better at everything" button that sits under station or gate guns and jumps/docks at the first sign of trouble. Your logic is that I'm a scrub because I haven't spent as much cash on EVE as you have. It's laughable.
El Taron
Doomheim
#85 - 2015-07-15 17:11:34 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Your logic is that I'm a scrub because I haven't spent as much cash on EVE as you have. It's laughable.


I'm cynical, unfortunately I think that's the exact reason CCP haven't nerfed them already.

Seems a shortsighted strategy to me though, it puts me off doing the only thing I really enjoy in this game and the way they've changed the game to require you to have multiple accounts means that most people that leave take multiple accounts with them.

As you say it's a joke right now, and hillarious how some of these people using them seem to think their credit card somehow makes them good.

As for the falcon example....at least that has to be on field and is subject to a weapons timer, making it at risk and let's not forget potentially need piloting and can be countered too. For all the **** Falcon's used to get (rightly so), they're less of a cancer to the game than OGB's now.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#86 - 2015-07-15 18:24:35 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position.


Example:

I'm sitting in a medium plex.

You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played.

I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot.


That will be the new reality.

Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either.
99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts)


So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now. Cool




So the differences (as if you didn't know) are that Freddy Falcon could miss a jam and I could kill him (there is a chance - no matter how small it is) and then get back to killing you AND Freddy Falcon shows up on the km as obvious proof that Little Sally Rottencrotch isn't really a leet solo character.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-07-15 18:25:10 UTC
El Taron wrote:
[quote=Demerius Xenocratus] Your logic is that I'm a scrub son CCP haven't nerfed them already.

Seems a shortsighted strategy to me though, it puts me off doing the only thing I really enjoy in this game and the way they've changed the game to require you to have multiple accounts means that most people that leave take multiple accounts with them.

As you say it's a joke right now, and hillarious how some of these people using them seem to think their credit card somehow makes them good.

As for the falcon example....at least that has to be on field and is subject to a weapons timer, making it at risk and let's not forget potentially need piloting and can be countered too. For all the **** Falcon's used to get (rightly so), they're less of a cancer to the game than OGB's now.


It's not like I expect CCP to somehow reverse the game of alts meta; it is extremely beneficial for their business. I do wish people would be honest about the extent to which it represents pay to win gameplay though when you see 1v1/small gang conflicts decided more by who can bring more alts than by in-game player choices.

There are quite a few notable differences between OGB, and on-grid advantages like ewar, logi, or implants.

Falcons can't get into small or novice plexes, which eliminates much of their utility as an FW "solo" trump card right off the bat. And all most reasonable posters are asking anyway is that OGB be subject to the same mechanics as on-grid assistance; that it appear on killmails and acquire, if not a suspect timer then at least a weapons timer.

The fact that an OGB can sit on station or gate and not even be at risk from a squad of ganknados or something like a Vindicator or Vigilant is absurd. The truly shocking thing is that people STILL manage to lose them despite the fact that they require minimal attention.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-07-15 18:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Serendipity Lost wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
People who complain about off grid boosts don't realize that if CCP removes them they will be in a much worse off position.


Example:

I'm sitting in a medium plex.

You come to pew pew because 1v1 in an MMO is smart and how it's ment to be played.

I tackle and decloak a falcon because my boost toon is now more useful as an ECM pilot.


That will be the new reality.

Don't think you'll be safe in novice or small plexes either.
99% of frigate fights last long enough for the cloaking lock delay to be well and truly over making a cloaking Griffin very viable. (I have tested this and the tears flowed way more than when I use boosts)


So yeah - keep asking for boosts on grid people. Then you can start complaining about the next thing until all that is left are the things that suit your solo play style in an MMO. Or you could buy Elite Dangerous and get that now. Cool



So the differences (as if you didn't know) are that Freddy Falcon could miss a jam and I could kill him (there is a chance - no matter how small it is) and then get back to killing you AND Freddy Falcon shows up on the km as obvious proof that Little Sally Rottencrotch isn't really a leet solo character.


The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#89 - 2015-07-15 21:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.


Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO.

If multiple accounts counter boosts and falcon, why not just bring as many accounts as you need?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2015-07-15 22:59:59 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.


Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO.

If multiple accounts counter boosts and falcon, why not just bring as many accounts as you need?


Because the game should be a contest of player skill and intelligence rather than who is willing to throw more money at it.

And I CAN bring more players, just as it stands now links are exceptionally hard to gank if the user is not completely oblivious, because they can immediate dock or jump.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#91 - 2015-07-15 23:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.


Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO.

If multiple accounts counter boosts and falcon, why not just bring as many accounts as you need?


Because the game should be a contest of player skill and intelligence rather than who is willing to throw more money at it.

And I CAN bring more players, just as it stands now links are exceptionally hard to gank if the user is not completely oblivious, because they can immediate dock or jump.


Understood, thats why the main theme of this thread has been to give boosters weapon and suspect timers. if these changes are entertained by ccp you will have all the tools you need to intimidate or gank boosters with a probing alt

The ship has long since sailed on the 'shouldnt need alts to win at eve' argument, since the entire community has embraced the concept of alts.

if you are too lazy to have an alt then i find it hard to have sympathy for you. Sure, no other MMO has such advantages for having multiple simultaneous accounts but then if all these other MMO's are so good why not go sperg on their forums instead?
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#92 - 2015-07-16 00:09:06 UTC
well said. links really aren't a problem, just for the few butthurt FW warriors in here who are upset by linked soloers. the funniest thing is comparing links to logi. are you KIDDING ME? links don't guarantee winning, stop blaming your suckness on them.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#93 - 2015-07-16 10:17:59 UTC
Plato Forko wrote:
well said. links really aren't a problem, just for the few butthurt FW warriors in here who are upset by linked soloers. the funniest thing is comparing links to logi. are you KIDDING ME? links don't guarantee winning, stop blaming your suckness on them.



people that use the term 'linked soloers' also use terms like 'conflict driver' and 'content generation' they are known as scrubs.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#94 - 2015-07-16 11:06:21 UTC
SL, clearly the issue here is you have no idea what the word scrub means. Its specifically not a word you can apply to someone for using one of three terms correctly, as you suggest.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#95 - 2015-07-16 11:41:33 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
SL, clearly the issue here is you have no idea what the word scrub means. Its specifically not a word you can apply to someone for using one of three terms correctly, as you suggest.


I think I just proved above that I can use it however I like. (you're not the boss of me)

For the record, I could care less if a guy uses a booster, a falcon alt and a logi alt. I just want everyone involved to get a flag as involved and to be open to pew because they are involved.

In general I have a dislike for folks that intentionally place ships on undocks and on gates for the sole purpose of having a game mechanic supported escape route. I don't hate them. I just don't like the risk averse life styles. If I rubbed your genie lamp and 3 eve wishes spewed out the first thing I would wish for that is when folks choose to engage in combat then they are committed until the combad is done in lieu of some timer ending. Basically, if you choose to cause harm to another players pixels then you get a meaningful timer instead of an easily tankable timer. Choosing to participate in pvp (an act of agression) would have enough commitment attached, that someone would lose a ship.

Take falcons/rooks. I don't consider them risk averse. They have to be on grid and engageable to do their thing. If I'm fighting your cyclone with my orthrus and kicking your patoot and suddenly you drop your rook alt on me and shut me down - that's sandbox warfare. I have no problem with it. The rook is there in combat. Am I screwed - probably, but there is the opportunity to bring in my tornado alt and wonk your rook or something. That's the key, I at least have some options to engage whats putting boo boos all over my ship.

Everyhting a player can call upon to give them a leg up can be engaged - everything except the nuetral I'm sitting on a station booster alt. It's just a loophole I want closed.
El Taron
Doomheim
#96 - 2015-07-16 12:26:12 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


if you are too lazy to have an alt then i find it hard to have sympathy for you. Sure, no other MMO has such advantages for having multiple simultaneous accounts but then if all these other MMO's are so good why not go sperg on their forums instead?


I agree CCP aren't going to go back on the necessity of needing alts to be in any way competitive but it's a hell of a barrier of entry to the game.

I don't agree it's lazyness though, there is lots of reasons other than lazyness people might only one, for example some people don't want to pay for more than one account and why should they you can supposedly play with one account, what the marketing doesn't mention is you just really won't like playing with one.

But as you say that ship has sailed.

The problem is the lack of balance of OGB's, the way they are now is ridiculous for the reasons stated, and I can only imagine the people defending them are exploiting the hell out of them at the moment. I've not seen any rational argument from anybody to say they shouldn't at least be given a weapons timer and suspect status.

Oh and someone mentioned linked soloers earlier..... Using links isn't solo it's duo, just like having a logi repping you while only being the only person on the killmail. Calling it solo is just an ego thing that people want to pretend they didn't have an overwelming advantage over the guy they just killed.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#97 - 2015-07-16 13:47:09 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.


Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO.

If multiple accounts counter boosts and falcon, why not just bring as many accounts as you need?


By accounts, I assume Crosi means "friends". After all it is an MMO.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#98 - 2015-07-16 14:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
SL, clearly the issue here is you have no idea what the word scrub means. Its specifically not a word you can apply to someone for using one of three terms correctly, as you suggest.


I think I just proved above that I can use it however I like. (you're not the boss of me)


I didnt say you couldnt use it however you like, just some ways are correct and some are not.

Estella Osoka wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

The Falcon Trope is a red herring that doesn't hold up logically. Delicious tear-scented smoke from people who bought a booster and are afraid their link-dependent solo god is gonna get a much needed risk injection.


Still obsessing over the solo meta in an MMO.

If multiple accounts counter boosts and falcon, why not just bring as many accounts as you need?


By accounts, I assume Crosi means "friends". After all it is an MMO.


Its traditional to play EVE however you want. The options are what make it different to other MMO's.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#99 - 2015-07-16 14:50:18 UTC
Exactly, but if a person can't afford an ALT, then having friends is the alternative.

Heck, I'm sure there are some people who will rent out their booster alt for some isk. I see it done all the time in Incursion fleets. So it is a thing.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#100 - 2015-07-16 14:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
El Taron wrote:

The problem is the lack of balance of OGB's, the way they are now is ridiculous for the reasons stated, and I can only imagine the people defending them are exploiting the hell out of them at the moment. I've not seen any rational argument from anybody to say they shouldn't at least be given a weapons timer and suspect status.

Oh and someone mentioned linked soloers earlier..... Using links isn't solo it's duo, just like having a logi repping you while only being the only person on the killmail. Calling it solo is just an ego thing that people want to pretend they didn't have an overwelming advantage over the guy they just killed.


Thats why weapons and suspect timers are being suggested. To make a single booster countered by a single prober.

And the phrase 'linked solo' doesnt to imply 'trusolo'. And multiple people making an issue out of a term that is perfectly clear is obtuse at best. The word 'solo' isnt anything sacred in EVE, its just a choice that some people have made and props to them.

But the new breed of 'millennial soloist' that want to be just like their heros in the past (who often also used boosts), complaining about solo being too hard, are more of a blemish on the term 'solo' than using the term 'linked solo' ever will be. One is honest and clear, the other are a bunch of whining babies.

Solo is supposed to be hard, thats the whole point lol.