These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Lots of products cost more to produce than to buy..

Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-07-13 17:00:24 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Nortion Adoulin wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I mine my ore hence it's free Lol

Or maybe I'm just dumping the market on purpose... Twisted


No its not FREE!

If your making products and selling them for little more than the cost of the materials used to make them then you may as well just sell the ore and stop wasting your time and isk building things for next to no profit. You could be doing other more profitable things insetad.

I can assure you, that the ore I mine is free regardless of me selling the end item for 5 million or 25 million, and regardless of its "actual" market value. You're just suggesting I could do other things that are more profitable, that still doesn't change the fact that the ore is free to me (as time is not a cost for me).

So whilst I mine things and sell them for less the value of the unrefined ore, then content of what I sold is just as free as if I would make profit from it - it might be silly and stupid way to do things, and maybe a waste of time - but it's still free so...

And while a waste of time and perhaps inefficient it's a nice way to dump markets for whatever the reasons may be Pirate

/c



I disagree with you chribba because we all MUST pay for our ability to spend time ingame because this is a subbased game, be it with plex or rl cash , as such time in eve is never free Blink.

Unless someone actually pays for your sub , then your reasoning would make sense.


Since I do what I want in this game, nothing has an opportunity cost for me now even in time. If I was not mining for example, I would be playing another game or doing something else. Your time stop ahving a "value" once you decide EVE or any other game is to be enjoyed for what it is and not what the tryhards want it to be.

I could personally not consider I am playing a game if I had to make "accounting" to be sure I can afford the next month of game time hence why I never even tried to PLEX my account. At that point, your time is free IMO.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2015-07-13 17:04:35 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
flakeys wrote:
Lizzetta Maken wrote:
Has this always been so? How does this really work?

Let`s take Mantis as an example. Sold in jita for about 27 000 000 and costs about 45 000 000 to build.

I am sure this has a perfectly good explanation, I just need to understand how this happens and why to better understand the market.

Help me? Smile



''What i mine is free'' ... RollRollRoll
Are the tears I mine from other miners free? Twisted


You can't sell those on the market so does it matter ? Big smile

But they are content for a blog, which brings in money through ads and sold PLEX! Twisted

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#43 - 2015-07-13 17:10:34 UTC
Looking at Eve Central, the buy and sell orders seem fairly balanced and if you buy in Jita at 21 million isk and sell at 27 million - you've made a reasonable profit. The person selling at 21 million probably looted a carrier wreck rather than making the product so they did OK too. These things contain a fair bit of Megacyte and Zydrene so the mineral cost to build has increased quite a bit in the last month or so.

People in Null may build for personal use rather than JF in from Jita but it's unlikely anyone is building these as a business at current prices - even if they consider their minerals free there are much better ways to use them.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-07-13 17:14:05 UTC
Chribba wrote:
flakeys wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Nortion Adoulin wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I mine my ore hence it's free Lol

Or maybe I'm just dumping the market on purpose... Twisted


No its not FREE!

If your making products and selling them for little more than the cost of the materials used to make them then you may as well just sell the ore and stop wasting your time and isk building things for next to no profit. You could be doing other more profitable things insetad.

I can assure you, that the ore I mine is free regardless of me selling the end item for 5 million or 25 million, and regardless of its "actual" market value. You're just suggesting I could do other things that are more profitable, that still doesn't change the fact that the ore is free to me (as time is not a cost for me).

So whilst I mine things and sell them for less the value of the unrefined ore, then content of what I sold is just as free as if I would make profit from it - it might be silly and stupid way to do things, and maybe a waste of time - but it's still free so...

And while a waste of time and perhaps inefficient it's a nice way to dump markets for whatever the reasons may be Pirate

/c



I disagree with you chribba because we all MUST pay for our ability to spend time ingame because this is a subbased game, be it with plex or rl cash , as such time in eve is never free Blink.

Unless someone actually pays for your sub , then your reasoning would make sense.

Phew, this time I can actually get away with it, because CCP's FanSite program pay for my account Bear

But yeah, even paying by PLEX comes with a cost, be it grinding, scamming, mining, producing... insert anytihng here that generates ISK. And in the end yes that time is "cost" (valued at my *variable)

/c

What's that program?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
flakeys
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-07-13 17:15:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
flakeys wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Nortion Adoulin wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I mine my ore hence it's free Lol

Or maybe I'm just dumping the market on purpose... Twisted


No its not FREE!

If your making products and selling them for little more than the cost of the materials used to make them then you may as well just sell the ore and stop wasting your time and isk building things for next to no profit. You could be doing other more profitable things insetad.

I can assure you, that the ore I mine is free regardless of me selling the end item for 5 million or 25 million, and regardless of its "actual" market value. You're just suggesting I could do other things that are more profitable, that still doesn't change the fact that the ore is free to me (as time is not a cost for me).

So whilst I mine things and sell them for less the value of the unrefined ore, then content of what I sold is just as free as if I would make profit from it - it might be silly and stupid way to do things, and maybe a waste of time - but it's still free so...

And while a waste of time and perhaps inefficient it's a nice way to dump markets for whatever the reasons may be Pirate

/c



I disagree with you chribba because we all MUST pay for our ability to spend time ingame because this is a subbased game, be it with plex or rl cash , as such time in eve is never free Blink.

Unless someone actually pays for your sub , then your reasoning would make sense.


Since I do what I want in this game, nothing has an opportunity cost for me now even in time. If I was not mining for example, I would be playing another game or doing something else. Your time stop ahving a "value" once you decide EVE or any other game is to be enjoyed for what it is and not what the tryhards want it to be.

I could personally not consider I am playing a game if I had to make "accounting" to be sure I can afford the next month of game time hence why I never even tried to PLEX my account. At that point, your time is free IMO.


I'm subbed till somewhere 2021 because isk comes easy to me , but even though i don't see my gametime as ''time is money'' i can not say my time spend in this game is free because the game has a subprice as i said.It has a price to participate as such it is never free UNLESS as said someone pays for your sub ,wich in chribba's case is actually done, regardless of how easy or uneasy it is to get the isk/rl cash required to pay for that sub.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-07-13 17:17:35 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
flakeys wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
flakeys wrote:
Lizzetta Maken wrote:
Has this always been so? How does this really work?

Let`s take Mantis as an example. Sold in jita for about 27 000 000 and costs about 45 000 000 to build.

I am sure this has a perfectly good explanation, I just need to understand how this happens and why to better understand the market.

Help me? Smile



''What i mine is free'' ... RollRollRoll
Are the tears I mine from other miners free? Twisted


You can't sell those on the market so does it matter ? Big smile

But they are content for a blog, which brings in money through ads and sold PLEX! Twisted



Lol , good point Lol.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys
Doomheim
#47 - 2015-07-13 17:18:29 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:

What's that program?



evesearch or eveboard would be my guess ...

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#48 - 2015-07-13 17:55:06 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
the only way it's free is if you personally interpret "free" to mean, "not very much".

The proper term would be "basically free", or "almost free".

Like if someone meant to send 100000000 isk to Divine Intervention and accidentally sent it to Divine Entervention, then yea, I just got that isk for free. Some things are free. But if he manually sits down and takes any amount of time to force himself to perform an action that results a yield of something, then that yield is not free. Depending on his efficiency, it could be almost free.

Or if he's a GM and types /gm_command_generateisk_10000000000 then yea, that's free.

But other than that, it's not "free". Close, Almost, Basically, super cheap, but not free.

If there's a cost, time being a cost (especially considering it's a finite resource for each individual), then it's not USA land of the Free.
That's rather unfitting, considering how the USA and freedom do not go together in any way or form.


Just another kid mad that USA is back to back world war champs.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2015-07-13 17:58:49 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
the only way it's free is if you personally interpret "free" to mean, "not very much".

The proper term would be "basically free", or "almost free".

Like if someone meant to send 100000000 isk to Divine Intervention and accidentally sent it to Divine Entervention, then yea, I just got that isk for free. Some things are free. But if he manually sits down and takes any amount of time to force himself to perform an action that results a yield of something, then that yield is not free. Depending on his efficiency, it could be almost free.

Or if he's a GM and types /gm_command_generateisk_10000000000 then yea, that's free.

But other than that, it's not "free". Close, Almost, Basically, super cheap, but not free.

If there's a cost, time being a cost (especially considering it's a finite resource for each individual), then it's not USA land of the Free.
That's rather unfitting, considering how the USA and freedom do not go together in any way or form.


Just another kid mad that USA is back to back world war champs.

The immature superiority complex - btw shared with many pure PvE players - shows again.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-07-13 18:24:24 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
the only way it's free is if you personally interpret "free" to mean, "not very much".

The proper term would be "basically free", or "almost free".

Like if someone meant to send 100000000 isk to Divine Intervention and accidentally sent it to Divine Entervention, then yea, I just got that isk for free. Some things are free. But if he manually sits down and takes any amount of time to force himself to perform an action that results a yield of something, then that yield is not free. Depending on his efficiency, it could be almost free.

Or if he's a GM and types /gm_command_generateisk_10000000000 then yea, that's free.

But other than that, it's not "free". Close, Almost, Basically, super cheap, but not free.

If there's a cost, time being a cost (especially considering it's a finite resource for each individual), then it's not USA land of the Free.
That's rather unfitting, considering how the USA and freedom do not go together in any way or form.


Just another kid mad that USA is back to back world war champs.


Canada is back to back world war champ and also got a token prize for burning the white house.
Sykaotic
Doomheim
#51 - 2015-07-14 05:32:11 UTC
Chribba wrote:

Phew, this time I can actually get away with it, because CCP's FanSite program pay for my account Bear

But yeah, even paying by PLEX comes with a cost, be it grinding, scamming, mining, producing... insert anytihng here that generates ISK. And in the end yes that time is "cost" (valued at my *variable)

/c


Does the site have costs?

(had to get in on this awesome thread.... I do not really care lol)

GL all

o7 Big smile
Arancar Australis
Dead Sun Rising Enterprises
#52 - 2015-07-14 07:12:25 UTC
flakeys wrote:


I'm subbed till somewhere 2021 because isk comes easy to me , but even though i don't see my gametime as ''time is money'' i can not say my time spend in this game is free because the game has a subprice as i said.It has a price to participate as such it is never free UNLESS as said someone pays for your sub ,wich in chribba's case is actually done, regardless of how easy or uneasy it is to get the isk/rl cash required to pay for that sub.



Even in Chribba's case it is not free because essentially to be able to play, there is a subscription price to be paid by someone, whether it be by a debit to your account or someone else paying for the plex you purchase from them. Simply at the foundation, there is a cost to play the game, whether you pay for it directly or indirectly.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#53 - 2015-07-14 07:22:05 UTC
The only free ore is that which drops from a dead miner

Evil RatKid
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2015-07-14 08:43:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
flakeys wrote:
I disagree with you chribba because we all MUST pay for our ability to spend time ingame because this is a subbased game, be it with plex or rl cash , as such time in eve is never free Blink.

Unless someone actually pays for your sub , then your reasoning would make sense.

But I pay for skill training, does that mean that anything I do ingame is a free bonus? P

Oh well. This thread turned out good.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
flakeys
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-07-14 09:58:32 UTC
Arancar Australis wrote:
flakeys wrote:


I'm subbed till somewhere 2021 because isk comes easy to me , but even though i don't see my gametime as ''time is money'' i can not say my time spend in this game is free because the game has a subprice as i said.It has a price to participate as such it is never free UNLESS as said someone pays for your sub ,wich in chribba's case is actually done, regardless of how easy or uneasy it is to get the isk/rl cash required to pay for that sub.



Even in Chribba's case it is not free because essentially to be able to play, there is a subscription price to be paid by someone, whether it be by a debit to your account or someone else paying for the plex you purchase from them. Simply at the foundation, there is a cost to play the game, whether you pay for it directly or indirectly.



If someone hands over a plex specifically for subbing and you do just that or someone pays for your sub with rl cash and you deposit that exact amount for your sub then you actually can say it is free.Now if i kill a ship with a plex in it and i use that for my sub then no the game is still not free because i am using something with the intend of subbing but did not receive it specifically for the purpose of subbing.

I gave some ingame friends of mine enough plex to each sub their account for the next years and specifically stated that they had to activate them at once , wich they said they did , so yes they then play for free.That is assuming they where telling the truth that they activated themBig smile.

It actually is quite simple ... at least from my point of view Blink.It's something we can debate about for a decade and not see common ground.But then isn't this forum just that , debates about crap wich we will never agree upon.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
flakeys
Doomheim
#56 - 2015-07-14 10:02:04 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
flakeys wrote:
I disagree with you chribba because we all MUST pay for our ability to spend time ingame because this is a subbased game, be it with plex or rl cash , as such time in eve is never free Blink.

Unless someone actually pays for your sub , then your reasoning would make sense.

But I pay for skill training, does that mean that anything I do ingame is a free bonus? P

Oh well. This thread turned out good.



I didn't know there was a speciall pricetag for your sub if you only did X or Y .... damn must have missed out on a great opportunity as all i do is skilltraining too ... Lol

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2015-07-14 21:30:43 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
But if he manually sits down and takes any amount of time to force himself to perform an action that results a yield of something, then that yield is not free.


Many people in this thread are confusing cost with market value. If you mine the minerals yourself and you enjoyed the process, then it did not cost you anything in wany practical sense. That doesn't mean the minerals have no market value, and indeed, if you mine minerals worth X isk, and manufacture them into something worth less than X isk, then your net worth took a loss during the manufacturing, even though you got the minerals for free.

Marech.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#58 - 2015-07-14 21:51:06 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
The only free ore is that which drops from a dead miner

You can reprocess their salvaged hull too. Waste not want not.

This topic is more a matter of location. You want to sell at jita for your convenience? Then you often times take the smaller profit if any. You want to sell at a more remote station for their convenience, then you get a convenience fee. Of course some junk is just not worth moving.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2015-07-14 23:20:09 UTC
Why do overlap char PLEX ing or either subs extention as a "cost" factor for the ore you've mined.
It is free cause you are not spending isk directly on the astero belt to exctract this ore from it. You do buy required tools to do that, but it is not direct connection. Buying raw ore or either minerals from market is not equal to mine ore from the rock.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-07-14 23:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Frostys Virpio wrote:


What you think does not change how his reality is. If he mines and build for his personal enjoyment and decide to sell under market cost, there is fuckall you can say to change it because at the end of the day, his activity is still ISK positive for him. People talk about opportunity cost but always fail to realise there is a **** ton of people more than happy to sell at a reduced profit just to not have to deal with the ball-ache of playing the market.



FINALLY someone who understands. I can't be bothered to 0.01 isk against perfect refine pos alts at a game I am going to lose. Since I do not even have a pos or an alt to begin with.



Frostys Virpio wrote:

People talk about opportunity cost but always fail to realise there is a **** ton of people more than happy to sell at a reduced profit just to not have to deal with the ball-ache of playing the market.


Frostys Virpio wrote:

people more than happy to sell at a reduced profit just to not have to deal with the ball-ache of playing the market.


Frostys Virpio wrote:

ball-ache of playing the market.


Shall I repeat it one more time?? Or am I going to be told "BUT IT ISN'T FREE!!!" some more by some MIN-MAXER who is probably only telling me so because he is irritated my bottom line is lower than his, and that "i'm okay with what I am doing".

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?