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I'm tired of that Mmorpg Communism !
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2011-12-31 03:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
iudex wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
Well I don't think much of the way the idea was presented but at it's core I think it has some value. Why ? well..

1. Whoever designed this skill system wanted it to take a long time to develop a charecter, but at the time they would be unaware of how long the game was likely to last, therefore there 'balancing' may have not developed the way they intended.

2. There are people out there who can fly every ship available apperently, if they aren't interested in any skillsets other than ship combat what is there now for them to train.

I don't think this problem neccesarily requires the development of a whole new 'infinite proggresion' skill system.

My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.


That are some good thoughts, they added the skill-intensive capital ships to give long-term player a perspective in skill progression, but that's almost half a decade ago, since then there were only minor skill additions (t3 ships, rigs, black ops etc., things that can be trained in a few months), the system didn't keep step with the skilltraing of vets since then.

And there doesn't have to be much coding work or even an invention of a new skill system.
For example we have the heavy missile skill and the heavy missile specialisation skill. The second skill gives a smaller DPS increase and requires more time to train. This could be continued with a 3rd specialisation skill, that gives an even smaller DPS increase and takes even longer to train, a 4th spec skill etc. ad infinitum. That means the only change are couple of new skillbooks sold by NPCs. I'd prefer to train 6 months for a 0.25% DPS increase in a weapon system that i use instead of training skills that i don't use at all.


And this will achieve exactly what ?
Same thread in about one and half year ?

Exclusive skills for people of certain birth date is actually better suited as an solution. But not gonna happen.

Increasing cap is not really an solution .
iudex
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#42 - 2011-12-31 03:41:06 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
iudex wrote:
[For example we have the heavy missile skill and the heavy missile specialisation skill. The second skill gives a smaller DPS increase and requires more time to train. This could be continued with a 3rd specialisation skill, that gives an even smaller DPS increase and takes even longer to train, a 4th spec skill etc. ad infinitum.


And this will achieve exactly what ?
Same thread in about one and half year ?


-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_infinitum
Jorn Isu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-12-31 03:44:10 UTC
OP is an idiot. That is all.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#44 - 2011-12-31 05:16:33 UTC
You will never max all of the available skills in EVE as it is.

Being able to specialize as a newer player and be competitive (at least in character skills) is a major strength of the game. The newer player can be dangerous in his chosen specialty, the older character has more tools at his disposal... along with experience in using them.

Character skills in EVE are very secondary to thinking skills... and your assessment of how any type of serious combat works in EVE shows you really don't get that yet.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
iudex
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-12-31 06:13:19 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
You will never max all of the available skills in EVE as it is.

Being able to specialize as a newer player and be competitive (at least in character skills) is a major strength of the game. The newer player can be dangerous in his chosen specialty, the older character has more tools at his disposal... along with experience in using them.

Character skills in EVE are very secondary to thinking skills... and your assessment of how any type of serious combat works in EVE shows you really don't get that yet.



1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.

2. You should first decide if skill-points are important or not, otherwise your post is self-contradictory: If, as you say in the second passage, character skills are secondary and therefore less important, why is it a major strength of the game, that new players can become equal in character skills, as you state in the first passage ? If skill-points are not that important, what's wrong to give a vet, who will specialize for years in a certain field, 10-20% better character skills ?

3. If you really believe that combat in Eve requires lots of thinking skills, then your thinking skills are not much developed. The choices of action are quite limited in the combat situation, if they are using your brain computing power to capacity, you probably should upgrade your brain (try to play chess or something).
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#46 - 2011-12-31 06:29:18 UTC
iudex wrote:
Metal Icarus wrote:
in EVE its not the limit of skills, its the combination of skills that make a character strong.

Ofc. Eve is better in this regard than other MMOs (that's why we play it and don't play that wow-clones for longer than few months). But here you get the cap as well, after you trained all the skills that are affecting the ship you fly. If you prefer to fly sub-capital ships, this can happen quite fast, and then you are "maxed" and are forced to be equal. There should be soft caps, not hard caps, skill communism is a bad feature imho.


Don't let them derail you. A Wolf or a Golem even have very specific skill charts that allow it to live or die and while you can add as many ships as you want to your check list you can only fly one at a time. You will find in EVE everything is designed to die, not to live. It's a race to see who goes first.

On the flip side, when does PvE stop leveling? There are loads of PvE rats in EVE now I can ignore for an indefinite period of time based on my fit. If you were able to do that with all PvE it becomes pretty useless to even have it. Player side, if you can train MWD skills indefinite, how fast do you get to go? We had it to a point where nobody could catch us once. How much fun would that be after the first few times? MWD fit a titan to go 20K/ms?

Only reason I even looked was I thought you meant the pyramid system of the Corps alliances that allow a very selct group of people to abuse the **** out of capital pooling. What you seem discontent about is just not practical in MMO's.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#47 - 2011-12-31 08:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
iudex wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
You will never max all of the available skills in EVE as it is.

Being able to specialize as a newer player and be competitive (at least in character skills) is a major strength of the game. The newer player can be dangerous in his chosen specialty, the older character has more tools at his disposal... along with experience in using them.

Character skills in EVE are very secondary to thinking skills... and your assessment of how any type of serious combat works in EVE shows you really don't get that yet.



1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.

2. You should first decide if skill-points are important or not, otherwise your post is self-contradictory: If, as you say in the second passage, character skills are secondary and therefore less important, why is it a major strength of the game, that new players can become equal in character skills, as you state in the first passage ? If skill-points are not that important, what's wrong to give a vet, who will specialize for years in a certain field, 10-20% better character skills ?

3. If you really believe that combat in Eve requires lots of thinking skills, then your thinking skills are not much developed. The choices of action are quite limited in the combat situation, if they are using your brain computing power to capacity, you probably should upgrade your brain (try to play chess or something).


Since I actually said what I meant, clearly and concisely, and you were apparently too busy trolling to actually read the post you look pretty stupid right now.

Your points have been covered, there is no contradiction other than in your own mind, and in all but the last point I was discussing your characters skills, not personal skills.

Try to keep up.

You made the classic troll blunder of ignoring what was written in your effort to keep the ball rolling. Rookie move.

Oh, and the old chestnut is still appropriate... the one that points out that there are plenty of people that believe as you profess to about how simple combat is in EVE... they are all conveniently located together in the "victim" column of any kill board.

Interesting that you bring up chess. That would actually be fairly comparable to participating in a serious fleet battle.... IF you could have a few hundred pieces on each side. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ascendic
Polaris Syndicate
#48 - 2011-12-31 08:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ascendic
iudex wrote:

Lol Don't try to elude, this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast (which seems to be new to you). The other "skills" (= personal abilities of a player) are not subject of this thread. Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3, so even if this were part of this thread, you'd be wrong. Even in Wow pvp can require more "skill" than that. But again, that's not what i'm talking about, the equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied - and i'm posting against this type of communism-like forced and artificial equality, that kills any taste of progression after a while.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Op has just lost all credibility with this laughable post.
Valei Khurelem
#49 - 2011-12-31 09:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
You know, in real life there are these people in turbans and Perahan Tunbans ( Just looked it up lolz ) who run around mountains with just AK-47's and RPG's and they fight an army with the best technology available on the market, including, tanks, planes, jets, stealth technology and drones.

The most interesting thing is, the high tech army with all the gadgets and best equipment is losing, I wonder why that could be?


Quote:

1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.


I don't think a lot of these players even understand the difference, so much for EVE player IQ being higher than other gamers.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Zenith Ginnungagap
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-12-31 09:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zenith Ginnungagap
Well it's true. PVP in EVE requires very little of real "skill". Just select target from OV and that's it.

Who will make the first MMORPG privateer clone?

Hollywood stylish physics and mega explosions, fast moving ships and lots and lots of lasers and proton torps Big smile
Valei Khurelem
#51 - 2011-12-31 10:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
The only MMO I can think of that's planning to do this type of thing is Miner Wars, but that's very far away :( unfortunately most game developers and gamers seem to think that you need to have progression in order to have an MMORPG, which is stupid.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Avensys
The Waterworks
#52 - 2011-12-31 10:39:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Avensys
drew up a minimal "Perfect fleet Drake" skillplan for lulz - 580 days with +3 implants.

In practice you might want to use more than one race of drones, have the option to use HAMs instead of Heavy Missiles, use not just shield rigs, use some sort of ewar (sensor damps or tackle would be nice), ... but I was looking for a realistic baseline and not the "all you can eat" version.

don't see OP's problem.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2011-12-31 10:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
iudex wrote:
1. I already explained above, that this is about equality in game mechanics skills, not the abilities of players, but i guess your attention span is too short to read the whole thread before pushing the "post" button.
As already explained, this is pointless because the equality doesn't exist in real terms. The mechanics are just one part of the puzzle, and even they do not provide the equality you're claiming. Just because you ignore the big picture doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and as long as you ignore it, you have no point. Of course, as soon as you don't ignore it, you have no point either.

End result: you have no point. Your argument is based on ignorance.
Quote:
2. You should first decide if skill-points are important or not, otherwise your post is self-contradictory: If, as you say in the second passage, character skills are secondary and therefore less important, why is it a major strength of the game, that new players can become equal in character skills, as you state in the first passage ?
Since that's not what he said, there is no contradiction beyond what your ignorance creates. SP are important in determining what equipment you can use — the EVE skill system lets newer players have access to a narrow slice of high-level equipment very early, and this is a strength of the game since it lets them play in the big league soon. However, being able to play there and knowing how to play there are two different things — it's the latter, not the former, that will let you do any good.

That's how characters from 2006 can still be complete n00bs and 2011 characters can be wtflethal.
Quote:
If skill-points are not that important, what's wrong to give a vet, who will specialize for years in a certain field, 10-20% better character skills ?
Because that already happens and because there's no need for any more of it. If you want to be better, just get better — if you can't why should the game help you? Actually, strike that: why are you so desperate for the game making you worse (because that's what you're suggesting)?

It won't be the progression you're looking for (largely because, again, progression has very little to do with SP).
Quote:
The choices of action are quite limited in the combat situation
In other words, you've never shot anything other than NPCs (which explains your ignorant “just orbit and F1” comment earlier).
Khorian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2011-12-31 11:05:25 UTC
Being Uber in eve requires more than just skillpoints. There are 5 components.

Skillpoints, Isk, available equipment, knowledge and expirience, social engineering.

You chose to ignore 4 of them. Your fault.
Amon Tyr
#55 - 2011-12-31 11:07:47 UTC
I agree with the OP. I hate caps on progression with a passion, as well. If someone wants to train Shield Upgrades VIII for a year, why not let them? I do not see any imbalance in that. It would give focused characters more weight and value - and choosing roles and planning skills would actually be more meaningful as training skills all over the place would actually make you less effective in your chosen role.

An upside to this would be that the hardcore (mostly PVPer) playerbase would be forced to get alts for every role they want to play, just because they are - ahem - hardcore, which would mean lots of $$$ for CCP.

/troll

Just kidding. This would turn almost every aspect of the game where players compete (fleet PVE, PVP, manufacturing, whatever) into a ruthless and impregnable arena. The impacts it would have on the market would be unspeakable, and it would eventually be extremely hard for the non-hardcore gamer to compete in these areas of the game. So no.
Sirion Fujiwara
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-12-31 11:11:06 UTC

I completely agree with this. I have often thought about this myself.
What's wrong with increasing the cap to 10, of course ( as the OP says) with diminishing returns.

They could even introduce as new implant slot requiring an (expensive) implant that allowed you to train skill levels above 5, with increases in ability along th lines of +5%, +4%, +3% +2%, +1% for those five levels up to level 10. And I personally wuldn't mind if it took another 3 months per skill to get there. That's quite a few more years of constructive training - as opposed to the current system where a lot of people are training skills they simply don't need, just to train something.

Here's an additional idea: Ships are balanced with powergrid and CPU, so those should be left alone, but things like weapons damage, speed, agility etc could easily be increased to level 10 without any adverse impact on ship fitting.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#57 - 2011-12-31 11:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
There's no decent MMO where "everyone are equal".

In some MMOs you get top gear and then in theory it's over... but not really, because getting all the special trinkets and whatsnot often does not happen before a new expansion comes out (RNG gods are evil).

And once you are maxed? Welcome to the huge differences in personal ability. I tend to end up in top guilds in the MMOs I play and guess what? We roflstomp everyone else with same maxed gear. So, what is this equality going to do for them?


In EvE it's even better. Not only you do NOT get the same gear (I don't know many people fully fitting their Raven with Estamel stuff and similar) nor everyone got a State Raven or similar "uber" ship (much less they use them).

In EvE brain > personal skill > pilot skills > ship properties (staying on similar class of ships).

Brain to control an alliance of minions or twist the markets

Personal skill because who says to press "F1 F2 F3" should be perma-chased with Locator Agents and shown how that proves to be good for him.

Pilot skills because a pilot with certain implants can greatly affect performance (i.e. top shield implants on shield tanked ship) and even how fast the pilot learns new skills.

Ship properties and being able to pick the right ship for the job are fundamental.


I played most MMOs, even the less known, EvE is still the best one in so many respects.

Hell, EvE is so good that even CCP has a very hard life killing it.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2011-12-31 11:23:50 UTC
Sirion Fujiwara wrote:
They could even introduce as new implant slot requiring an (expensive) implant that allowed you to train skill levels above 5, with increases in ability along th lines of +5%, +4%, +3% +2%, +1% for those five levels up to level 10. And I personally wuldn't mind if it took another 3 months per skill to get there.
Just so you know, a rank 1 skill would take about 63 years to train to lvl 10…
Quote:
That's quite a few more years of constructive training - as opposed to the current system where a lot of people are training skills they simply don't need, just to train something.
The problem is that it wouldn't be constructive; that it would only further incentivise the use of alts; and that it doesn't really solve anything.
Quote:
Here's an additional idea: Ships are balanced with powergrid and CPU, so those should be left alone, but things like weapons damage, speed, agility etc could easily be increased to level 10 without any adverse impact on ship fitting.
…except that those things are balanced as well, so by that logic, you'd have to leave them alone too and increasing them isn't nearly as easy as you claim it is.


What the OP is asking for is a way to completely ruin a character and breaking the game, and creating a massive headache for the devs in getting the maths to still work, just because he thinks EVE works like every other game out there, where progression means “moar XP!” (never mind that SP doesn't work that way) and just because he thinks that the skill mechanics are a determining factor for “equality”.
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#59 - 2011-12-31 12:18:53 UTC
There is no real limit in Eve, its a combination of skills, isk and experience. Even if you max out the forst 2, you can stil gain more experience.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#60 - 2011-12-31 12:20:36 UTC
training skills while offline does not equal time investment.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!