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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Continuation of the Discussion on the destroyed slave freighter
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Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-07-13 13:33:18 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:
We close our eyes and try to imagine what it must have been like for the thousand souls, stuck inside a hold burning in space. What were their names? Who were they, and would anyone who loved them come to know how they died?

Our journey to Amarr was made inside a compartment too small for us to lie in without folding up ourselves up in a way that caused us discomfort in walking, sitting, and sleeping for days after we had come out. It was two of us who had to find a way to share a compartment. We wonder if it could have been ourself in that burning hull in Provi, and no one would know or remember if we died, quietly and incapable of struggling.

We feel we are in no position to have an opinion about the incident.


On the contrary, my Lady, you have the strongest right to an opinion of all here.

My view of this incident is that the argument is largely about the number of angels that dance upon the head of a pin. Slavery forces all those oppressed into situations of danger, and often death, which they would not have chosen were they free. Whatever the justification, this denial of freedom carries the ultimate blame. All the minutiae being peddled by both sides is clearly about their own egos rather than the fundamental rights of the unwilling dead.

Scoring petty points against opponents using the deaths of innocents is truly sad.

I do not stray far from the Republic's official stance on these matters. The sooner the slave trade is ended throughout New Eden, the better.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#22 - 2015-07-13 13:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Haruchai Khan
Double post

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-07-13 13:44:12 UTC

Mr. Haruchai,

We appreciate your sentiment, but we must clarify that our suffering was justified and righteous. It is not to say that we did not suffer in any small measure, we did because we are human and we feel pain. In this same way we feel sympathy and pain for those who died on that ship stuck inside its hold in Provi. But in our case, through the suffering we came out of it, clean. We are stripped of irrational fear and selfishness, and all that remains is Faith and Love.

Suffering. Surrender. Salvation.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)
Walter Cohen
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-07-13 13:55:38 UTC
CVA's propaganda in these posts is just despicable.

From a viewpoint of PFR these were not slaves but freedom fighters. At some point in there live time they may have been slaves but have bee freed from oppression by PFR and have as free men and women joined the PFR military ground forces in the hope to free more "slaves"

It seems clear that the fault here lays at CVA as it is clearly for "Slavery" hence rounded up any available men and called these fighters for a just cause as primary to send a clear message to there own slaves holdings. "Stay put or die"

PFR can not let this stand unanswered and will always fight with the oppressed so it will launch further attempts to free slaves from oppression of the CVA forces.


CVA space tyrants and spin doctors ...


FREE ALL SLAVES ... FREEPORTS AND FREEDOME ANYWHERE
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#25 - 2015-07-13 14:01:53 UTC
Silent Cyborg wrote:

Note CVA called primary the freighter not the 3 hostile carriers the blood is on CVA hands, it was the carriers that tried to save the slaves


You do not "save" a group of civilians by carting them through lawless space unnecessarily and then opening fire on sovereignty structures in that territory.

What you did was cart a freighter full of civilians unnecessarily through hostile territory while trying to instigate a fight hoping that the various groups of capsuleers that make home in those parts would think the freighter contained highly valuable cargo, particularly given the fleet you were "safeguarding" it with. When you couldn't get the fight you wanted, you picked a fight by engaging in hostile military action.

Regardless of how CVA responded to the action, the first and simple truth is that those lives were lost because you brought them there, because you set them up as bait and because you instigated a fight.

At least have the backbone to own up to your disgraceful behavior.

Despicable.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-07-13 14:33:01 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:

Mr. Haruchai,

We appreciate your sentiment, but we must clarify that our suffering was justified and righteous. It is not to say that we did not suffer in any small measure, we did because we are human and we feel pain. In this same way we feel sympathy and pain for those who died on that ship stuck inside its hold in Provi. But in our case, through the suffering we came out of it, clean. We are stripped of irrational fear and selfishness, and all that remains is Faith and Love.

Suffering. Surrender. Salvation.



Lady,

I understand your view on suffering. I find the concept of salvation through suffering problematic. One suspects that you would not voluntarily return to the condition of slavery, no matter the spiritual benefit. It is remarkable how few religious slavers would embrace the salvation on offer. In my diplomatic missions to the Mandate, I have met a number of former Holders who, through judicial or other means, have been reduced to the status of slave by the Empire. I have yet to meet one who considers his condition or spirit improved.

You survived your imprisonment, and in your own terms, feel ennobled by the experience. These unfortunates and many others, do not survive. They have no choice but to live or die at another's whim. The issue at hand is 'whose whim'?

It is clear that if this incident came before the Fleet Courts Martial, the death of the slaves would be considered the responsibility of the aggressors who brought them to an unprovoked action. The freighter containing civilians was put in harm's way for no conceivable military purpose and is therefore a war crime.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#27 - 2015-07-13 14:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
So now it's gone from slaves to freedom fighters from the mouths of the PFR pilots themselves, what next they were actually Intaki special forces?

As for going into a diplomatic channel and stating you're bringing slaves to a system, that in no way constitutes what I previously stated as diplomatic behaviour. You knew you were marked as hostile by CVA, therefore if you intended to hand those individuals over you should have contacted CVA well before time to ensure the safety of that freighter. Instead, you turned up in full force, asked where their home system was with obvious hostile intent and were treated as the hostiles you were behaving to be by being banned from the fluid router.

The fact remains if you wanted a fight, you got one, you didn't need to mess up diplomatic channels to get one just turning up is normally sufficient. The issue at hand here is your obvious baiting with a freighter filled with slaves in some sick joke that in no obvious manner was being done for any other purpose then to entrap CVA by putting those lives in harms way. You saying you tried to save them is even more sickening when you put them in place yourself. You have no justification for bringing those poor individuals along, and still have provided none outside "CVA shot them". No admission of what the intent was, no clarification, just more goading.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#28 - 2015-07-13 15:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Haruchai Khan wrote:
Lady,

I understand your view on suffering. I find the concept of salvation through suffering problematic. One suspects that you would not voluntarily return to the condition of slavery, no matter the spiritual benefit. It is remarkable how few religious slavers would embrace the salvation on offer. In my diplomatic missions to the Mandate, I have met a number of former Holders who, through judicial or other means, have been reduced to the status of slave by the Empire. I have yet to meet one who considers his condition or spirit improved.

You survived your imprisonment, and in your own terms, feel ennobled by the experience. These unfortunates and many others, do not survive. They have no choice but to live or die at another's whim. The issue at hand is 'whose whim'?


Of the trillions of slaves in Amarr, very few are killed at the hands of their masters or work place. Most of us had good working environments and health care. Slaves are valuable property, and are taken care of. It is the sensationalism to claim that Amarr Holders would arbitrarily kill their own work force, even while Caldari entrepreneurs already condemn slavery as unprofitable for the owners.

Slaves have been losing their lives instead at the hands of those who had no legal right to them. Heretics like Nauplius and IWHIP (Sani Sabik who sacrificed milions of slaves in blasphemous blood rites), or faithless foreigners and terrorists like Havohej (a minmatar "freedom fighter" who murdered hundreds of thousands of slaves because they wouldn't give up their faith).

Ending the widespread murder of slaves is as simple as ensuring that slaves remain the property only of those legally and spiritually responsible for their care: Amarr Holders and authorized slavers. If you want to help slaves, then get them off the interstellar capsuleer market place, where Amarrian laws cannot protect them. Scriptural law and interstellar law both define the practice of slavery to be legal only in Amarr and the Kingdom and only by Holders. Instead of turning your anger on Amarr, look instead on the Secure Commerce Commission, whose unregulated open market has allowed anyone with enough money to purchase slaves in defiance of interstellar and Amarrian laws.
Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-07-13 15:26:38 UTC
Walter Cohen wrote:
CVA's propaganda in these posts is just despicable.


I must point out that so far I am the only CVA member present in this thread and I have
not participated in the discussion of the actual events but merely pointed out an obvious
lack in control of the slave market and resulting illegal human trafficking.

At this point I cannot resist to state that no matter the question of CVA due diligence this entire
despicable affair seems very much to have been orchestrated by PFR.
To what end however remains unclear.
Richard Masseri
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#30 - 2015-07-13 15:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Masseri
Namas and greetings tayam.

Utari Onzo wrote:
So now it's gone from slaves to freedom fighters from the mouths of the PFR pilots themselves, what next they were actually Intaki special forces?


They can claim anything they like but the major fact in this is that lives were needlessly lost it is not a jovial matter or one for chest thumping let us bow our heads and mourn.

Irrespective of any views to the contrary I would echo Mr Aokiba Karazu.

Kontrahage wrote:
.

However I wish to raise the question how PFR aquired those slaves.
The true scandal is not this regrettable incident but the fact than unqualified entities,
yes, everybody with some isk can go and buy people for their own, selfish purposes it seems.




This is truly a terrible thing lets hope it is never repeated.

Just Another Capsuleer 
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-07-13 15:37:09 UTC
Lady Kernher

You will find that I expressed no anger.

The negotiations between the Republic and the Empire on the future of slavery are complex and ongoing. Both sides are best served by a recognition of realities rather than one's biased fantasies. I am encouraged that your Empress has a better grasp of the future than many of her subjects.

This incident is beyond those parameters and I have expressed both a personal view - to a correspondent for whom I have respect - and a more formal opinion on the incident.



The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Anslo
Scope Works
#32 - 2015-07-13 15:51:20 UTC
What the hell am I reading.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Richard Masseri
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#33 - 2015-07-13 16:00:52 UTC
Anslo wrote:
What the hell am I reading.


That 1000 people died on a battlefield not an uncommon event if it hadn't been for the fact they had no reason to be there and were not there of their own choice.

But I understand your confusion it seems an event which should just be set aside for grieving has become some sort of squabble over who should take the blame.

Just Another Capsuleer 
Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
#34 - 2015-07-13 16:22:39 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't classifying them as Freedom Fighters make them military personnel? Thus absolving CVA of any guilt in this matter what-so-ever?

I mean if they were slaves, and thus non-combatants then engaging and destroying them would be a matter of debate (the debate we are having here.) But if they were freedom-fighters, I.e. combatants of some form, wouldn't their destruction be wholly justified as additional casualties in the engagement?

To me that just doesn't seem like the argument you want to make, right now. If you're trying to split guilt across both parties.

-K. Amsel
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#35 - 2015-07-13 16:32:56 UTC
Gee. One thousand slaves. How can you go on with so much guilt.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#36 - 2015-07-13 16:58:39 UTC
What I'm seeing here is that the PFR are opportunistic and politically manipulative. Knowing that the CVA will be too busy to retaliate for the PFR's intransigence, PFR instigates a fight and brings a non-military vessel onto a battlefield, and then uses it to decry the evils of the CVA.

And lo, the PFR demonstrate that they are as amoral and feckless as virtually every sovereign power in null-security space. That's marginally disappointing.

Guess it's back to business as usual.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-07-13 17:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Civ Kado
I will chime in a say that PFR was operating a covert operation with the sole purpose of rescuing a slave encampment which was located in CVA space. PFR was able to triangulate a ping from one of the slaves who was a citizen of sovereign PFR space. As such, a covert rescue mission was launched to bring back that person along with any other illegally apprehended persons who were ultimately bound to be sold as slaves.

It's no surprise that CVA is pro-slavery. Their long-standing empire has been built and supported on slave labor. In their scramble to prevent any intel from leaking from one of the many rescued slaves they chose to permanently silence the 1000 slaves bound for freedom, than resolve this issue in any diplomatic way.

Shame on CVA. I was there, it was real. Those lives were real and it saddens me to see people in here using those deaths to push their own agenda.

at the end of the day all this shows is CVA's whimper of a dying Empire faced with new technologies and ideals that are threatening their long-standing, slave-built, and oppressing state. Right now it's all just a matter of time before we see their weak pillars start to crumble.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#38 - 2015-07-13 17:27:55 UTC
It's a covert slave extraction now? PFR is having a really hard time keeping its story straight.
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2015-07-13 17:29:26 UTC
Stop sucking CVA's teet.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-07-13 17:37:52 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
It's a covert slave extraction now? PFR is having a really hard time keeping its story straight.



Never mind keeping their story straight...

Covert?

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."