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Newbros and Eve going forward

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Sento Ormand
North Korean Nuclear Research
Brave Collective
#21 - 2015-07-13 13:07:35 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sento Ormand wrote:
Angelica you are definitely wrong. You are talking as a player, not a dev. New players are almost objectively a good thing in the eyes of a dev, and should be as players. You all lose nothing for new players coming into the game. More content and more mistakes to exploit. Sure some players won't make it, but Eve doesn't give players a chance in a lot of ways.


And yet here we are. That means there are at least some people who like it. Hell many of us started playing when the game was WAY harder (oddly enough, the game GREW then, now with kinder-gentler EVE....not so much),

People like you mean well, but you got it backwards. Dumbing down the game (make no mistake, this is what you are advocating) doesn't help new players who wouldn't make it anyways, while at the same time it turns off experienced players who like a complex game.


That is not true at all. You all clearly know nothing about game design. You have to teach people how to play the game, Eve doesn't do that. There should always be a learning period in the game. Core things about Eve are not taught and it is a huge week point.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-07-13 13:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Sento Ormand wrote:
Angelica you are definitely wrong. You are talking as a player, not a dev. New players are almost objectively a good thing in the eyes of a dev, and should be as players. You all lose nothing for new players coming into the game. More content and more mistakes to exploit. Sure some players won't make it, but Eve doesn't give players a chance in a lot of ways.

Well, no, I actually don't make superficial comments about people like you do. I don't want dumb people come here ruin the game. I understand that quality is important. Unlike you I can think deep enough to actually understand what I am talking about.

This thread is redundant. The same useless waste of time like the others, maybe even made by one of the usual suspects. You people have no opinion worth caring about, because you efen fail at the most basic thing: thinking things through properly.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-07-13 13:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
I'll close this with the following: There is nothing ever too hard to learn, there's only people who are too dumb to learn.

Why do you guys need it easier than the tens of thousands before you?

Answer that and you'll understand who is to blame,

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-07-13 13:16:34 UTC
Sento Ormand wrote:
That is not true at all. You all clearly know nothing about game design. You have to teach people how to play the game, Eve doesn't do that. There should always be a learning period in the game. Core things about Eve are not taught and it is a huge week point.


How come CCP managed to make the best game in the world then? I'm being entirely subjective here, but I do not even play any other games anymore. They don't appeal to me.

The game has got a lot easier already. If they slide too far down that path, they will destroy it completely and lose a lot of the existing playerbase who carried on beyond the first few hard moments.

Perhaps you think that enabling some kind of extra protection for new players who happen to get themselves into a war would improve things, but I think you do not realise what kind of game this is. Veteran trolls would surely exploit it for a start.

Also, this is completely disregarding that the necessary protections against war already exist in the game.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#25 - 2015-07-13 13:17:54 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
I'll close this with the following>: tthere is nothing ever too hard to learn, there's only people too dumb to learn.


I dunno man, hieroglyphics are pretty fierce. And dudes thousands of years knew what all those letters meant while we today think every other word is related to an obsession with cats.

Which now that I think about it, if their public postings are anything like what we do today, they probably all are about cats.
Sento Ormand
North Korean Nuclear Research
Brave Collective
#26 - 2015-07-13 13:18:11 UTC
I am thinking them through. I am also hear to discuss and you were the one who started the bigotry. I want to make the game better. You are sitting at a privileged position in the game where the results of this make no difference to you and maybe hurt you. Everyone that has commented saying the newbros don't need help only say that because you are in the business of taking advantage of them. This is an exact analogue to U.S. politics in which the people that are in power want to keep the ignorant at a disadvantage to keep life good for themselves.

Saying new players don't deserve a period to explore the game in an at least somewhat safe environment is bred by either stupidity or malice.

I am fine with the complexity, I am fine with the downright dirty nature of the game. I am not fine with the way new players are constantly treated in a game that is as great as this one is.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#27 - 2015-07-13 13:24:14 UTC
Sento Ormand wrote:
We want to create content, and we want to die and learn, but not being able to move resources is destroying anything we want to do.
So you want to be in a privileged class in the sandbox, free of the nuisance all the other players have had to go through and sometimes still do. So you want consequences for your actions or lack thereof to be stripped away until some later time when you feel you might be willing to adjust to the environment should that day ever come.
Not a problem, stay in 1.0 high security space. I'm pretty sure they have some asteroids to mine around the newbie starting stations.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Sento Ormand
North Korean Nuclear Research
Brave Collective
#28 - 2015-07-13 13:25:09 UTC
Fine, if you all want the game to stay how it is, the game will end. The player base is declining for a reason. You all didn't have it harder. Every year that passes puts another year between the new players and the old. That is a huge disadvantage. If you don't want the game to change, it won't, and the game will die because of it.
Sento Ormand
North Korean Nuclear Research
Brave Collective
#29 - 2015-07-13 13:28:13 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Sento Ormand wrote:
We want to create content, and we want to die and learn, but not being able to move resources is destroying anything we want to do.
So you want to be in a privileged class in the sandbox, free of the nuisance all the other players have had to go through and sometimes still do. So you want consequences for your actions or lack thereof to be stripped away until some later time when you feel you might be willing to adjust to the environment should that day ever come.
Not a problem, stay in 1.0 high security space. I'm pretty sure they have some asteroids to mine around the newbie starting stations.


You all claim I am the one not thinking when you "veterans" clearly don't understand. Experience is the biggest strength a player has in this game, and you all did not have it the same. The gap between the veterans and noobs grows and you all clearly do not see that.

I will play the game till it dies, but hopefully CPP understands better than you all. Which they likely do as they are the devs and not power hungry players like you all.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-07-13 13:28:36 UTC
Why do you guys need it easier than the tens of thousands before you?

Answer it! Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#31 - 2015-07-13 13:29:17 UTC
Eve is a sandbox. Very little of what happens in the game is scripted by the developers. The core objective of the new player experience is to get them into a player corporation where they can find mentors to teach them how to survive and thrive in a sandbox where anyone who wants to can kick over their castle.

If you are throwing large numbers of new players at war targets - do they have experienced FC's? How many of them are flying Griffins?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-07-13 13:30:46 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why do you guys need it easier than the tens of thousands before you?

Answer it! Lol


:reasons:

There is also the whole not enjoying the journey before reaching the destination...
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#33 - 2015-07-13 13:30:52 UTC
Sento Ormand wrote:
Fine, if you all want the game to stay how it is, the game will end. The player base is declining for a reason. You all didn't have it harder. Every year that passes puts another year between the new players and the old. That is a huge disadvantage. If you don't want the game to change, it won't, and the game will die because of it.

but but some people like mining... Or are they not welcome in the new privileged class?

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-07-13 13:32:45 UTC
The problem with being a new player is this:

It's embarrassing.

We're eve-dumb, so we want to hide our dumbness by not exposing to everyone in our brand new "we accept newbros" corporation just how unknowing we are. There's not a single solo activity we can "win". The only chance we have to "win" is to join a corporation and expose our naivety.

So the choice is - Go solo and be bored as excrement because there's nothing we can do effectively/efficiently(compared to all the chest thumping and epeenery as demonstrated in every chat and forum).

Or join a corp and have a bunch of dudes who's sole purpose of allowing us to join being our exploitation to further their own personal agendas at the expense of our time and training queues, all the while opening ourselves up to potential condescending remarks and constant reminders of how little we can actually contribute on a consistent basis.

There needs to be one thing, all new players need is 1 thing we feel we can do/accomplish on equal footing with "veterans" that isn't boring ass station-station hauling.

Like, we can't "join a pvp fleet and tackle" 24/7. As a new player, there's way more down time than active time. Like I personally am reaching the point where I feel I can at least do some things. But in all honesty, those first couple of months was more an exercise of willpower than having an enjoyable experience.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-07-13 13:36:30 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
The problem with being a new player is this:

It's embarrassing.

We're eve-dumb, so we want to hide our dumbness by not exposing to everyone in our brand new "we accept newbros" corporation just how unknowing we are. There's not a single solo activity we can "win". The only chance we have to "win" is to join a corporation and expose our naivety.

So the choice is - Go solo and be bored as excrement because there's nothing we can do effectively/efficiently(compared to all the chest thumping and epeenery as demonstrated in every chat and forum).

Or join a corp and have a bunch of dudes who's sole purpose of allowing us to join being our exploitation to further their own personal agendas at the expense of our time and training queues, all the while opening ourselves up to potential condescending remarks and constant reminders of how little we can actually contribute on a consistent basis.

There needs to be one thing, all new players need is 1 thing we feel we can do/accomplish on equal footing with "veterans" that isn't boring ass station-station hauling.

Like, we can't "join a pvp fleet and tackle" 24/7. As a new player, there's way more down time than active time. Like I personally am reaching the point where I feel I can at least do some things. But in all honesty, those first couple of months was more an exercise of willpower than having an enjoyable experience.


Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran. The rest come from experience which you will not get solo anyway. It's hard to understand how to position a support damping wing around your main fleet if you are always solo...
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-07-13 13:38:46 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
The problem with being a new player is this:

It's embarrassing.

We're eve-dumb, so we want to hide our dumbness by not exposing to everyone in our brand new "we accept newbros" corporation just how unknowing we are. There's not a single solo activity we can "win". The only chance we have to "win" is to join a corporation and expose our naivety.

So the choice is - Go solo and be bored as excrement because there's nothing we can do effectively/efficiently(compared to all the chest thumping and epeenery as demonstrated in every chat and forum).

Or join a corp and have a bunch of dudes who's sole purpose of allowing us to join being our exploitation to further their own personal agendas at the expense of our time and training queues, all the while opening ourselves up to potential condescending remarks and constant reminders of how little we can actually contribute on a consistent basis.

There needs to be one thing, all new players need is 1 thing we feel we can do/accomplish on equal footing with "veterans" that isn't boring ass station-station hauling.

Like, we can't "join a pvp fleet and tackle" 24/7. As a new player, there's way more down time than active time. Like I personally am reaching the point where I feel I can at least do some things. But in all honesty, those first couple of months was more an exercise of willpower than having an enjoyable experience.


Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran. The rest come from experience which you will not get solo anyway. It's hard to understand how to position a support damping wing around your main fleet if you are always solo...


Logi 5 or go home, noob
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-07-13 13:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
CCP is constantly working on a tutorial system that works, but I don't even think that for a game this complex, this is even possible to achieve. As a new player, look for helpful older players (There are plenty of those, believe me. We all love newbies) and stick to them.

Just as some players pointed out, you can haul stuff from a tradehub with an alt, that will take just a few days to train. You can also go to the tradehub of your choice, buy the stuff you want and issue a public courier contract for a few millions - as long as it stays in high sec, transport is dirt cheap. After that's done, you GTFO in a shuttle or even by pod express.

However, putting information like that into a tutorial wouldn't make a lot of sense, because 1 - the tutorial would get longer than some single player games' storylines, and 2 - strategies like that are all player-made and player-dependant, and thus potentially subject to change as the players invent new strategies. CCP won't change the tutorial each time the high sec gankers or griefers think of a new evil way to **** with you. But that doesn't mean CCP should take away from the possibilities to **** with you, because ******* with people and avoiding to be ****** with is a big part of what this game is about.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-07-13 13:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Frostys Virpio
Divine Entervention wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
The problem with being a new player is this:

It's embarrassing.

We're eve-dumb, so we want to hide our dumbness by not exposing to everyone in our brand new "we accept newbros" corporation just how unknowing we are. There's not a single solo activity we can "win". The only chance we have to "win" is to join a corporation and expose our naivety.

So the choice is - Go solo and be bored as excrement because there's nothing we can do effectively/efficiently(compared to all the chest thumping and epeenery as demonstrated in every chat and forum).

Or join a corp and have a bunch of dudes who's sole purpose of allowing us to join being our exploitation to further their own personal agendas at the expense of our time and training queues, all the while opening ourselves up to potential condescending remarks and constant reminders of how little we can actually contribute on a consistent basis.

There needs to be one thing, all new players need is 1 thing we feel we can do/accomplish on equal footing with "veterans" that isn't boring ass station-station hauling.

Like, we can't "join a pvp fleet and tackle" 24/7. As a new player, there's way more down time than active time. Like I personally am reaching the point where I feel I can at least do some things. But in all honesty, those first couple of months was more an exercise of willpower than having an enjoyable experience.


Most support roles in a fleet can be attained within 1 month of training and be about 80% as effective as a veteran. The rest come from experience which you will not get solo anyway. It's hard to understand how to position a support damping wing around your main fleet if you are always solo...


Logi 5 or go home, noob


I see scythe and oneiros in fleet all the time. They require racial cruiser IV to be stable IIRC.

Celestis are baller too.

Blackbird is the ultimate wildcard. You never know if it will really work but when it does, you know the guy on the recieving end is probably swearing like a sailor.

Also, some fleet can be run with logi trained for Minmatar frigate IV and we all know this is quite the long train right...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#39 - 2015-07-13 13:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sento Ormand wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Sento Ormand wrote:
Angelica you are definitely wrong. You are talking as a player, not a dev. New players are almost objectively a good thing in the eyes of a dev, and should be as players. You all lose nothing for new players coming into the game. More content and more mistakes to exploit. Sure some players won't make it, but Eve doesn't give players a chance in a lot of ways.


And yet here we are. That means there are at least some people who like it. Hell many of us started playing when the game was WAY harder (oddly enough, the game GREW then, now with kinder-gentler EVE....not so much),

People like you mean well, but you got it backwards. Dumbing down the game (make no mistake, this is what you are advocating) doesn't help new players who wouldn't make it anyways, while at the same time it turns off experienced players who like a complex game.


That is not true at all. You all clearly know nothing about game design. You have to teach people how to play the game, Eve doesn't do that. There should always be a learning period in the game. Core things about Eve are not taught and it is a huge week point.


So i supposed you are a game designer. Please do post your resume for us to see.

The real truth is that "teaching people how to play the game" is counterproductive in a game like this.
Quote:
Sometimes this is great, as with simple games designed around mastery of a few skills. But for games dependent on the interaction of multiple systems, options, strategies, or approaches, detailed tutorials may hurt the player and their long-term experience with the game.
Man up and figure it out for yourself.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-07-13 13:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Renegade Heart
Neuntausend wrote:
However, putting information like that into a tutorial wouldn't make a lot of sense, because 1 - the tutorial would get longer than some single player games' storylines


I was thinking about how they've improved things with the tutorial over the years, and this is an awesome point! They can only go so far with it before it would be ridiculous and counterproductive. Imagine a tutorial that took multiple months to complete LMAO.

[edit]

Learn 2 play Eve - Part 420

How to light a cyno on alt to get your JF safely docked into low sec, without getting bumped off the station!