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Amarrian loyalist outside the Providence Block are called to arms

Author
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2015-07-13 09:43:50 UTC
While I can not comment on PFR confusing attempt at bringing a freighter full of slaves into CVA sphere of influence, I am also disappointed that CVA chose to shoot down said vessel without any more inquiry.

Surely, someone must have wondered what this weird display was all about, right... ? No questions asked in local ?
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#22 - 2015-07-13 09:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
Lyn Farel wrote:
While I can not comment on PFR confusing attempt at bringing a freighter full of slaves into CVA sphere of influence, I am also disappointed that CVA chose to shoot down said vessel without any more inquiry.

Surely, someone must have wondered what this weird display was all about, right... ? No questions asked in local ?


That would have been the case had PFR not come into a Diplomacy channel demanding a fight. That might have happened had PFR not fired upon Providence owned infrastructure. That might have happened had PFR not been on the Kill On Sight list for hostile actions. The fact remains PFR chose to bring that freighter with full intent, with a hostile aggressor fleet. For all CVA could tell, maybe it was transporting Sovereignty Blockade Units for lack of blockade runners?

Either way the pilots of the PFR purchased slaves, and held them in a freighter knowingly into territory that has declared their organisation hostile. They have no legal right under Amarr law to own or purchase said slaves, and basic human decency says you don't then ship those innocents out into harms way knowingly.

It's not CVA's responsibility to check they're not harming innocents when their damned region is being attacked left right and center and PFR went about this act with malicious intent to both the Providence armed forces and the innocent souls within that freighter. Any attempt to paint this otherwise is spin. I will pray for the souls of those lost lives.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#23 - 2015-07-13 09:51:10 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Sammie MacWinters wrote:
I think you should focus on not destroying freighters full of slaves first.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47805224/


I think your fleet commanders shouldn't bring freighters alongside a fleet with hostile intentions. I'm pretty sure CVA had no idea slaves were inside. Besides, what in God's name are you doing transporting slaves around anyways?


I thought those were used for outpost construction (again, I am not discussing what such a freighter was doing specifically there).
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#24 - 2015-07-13 09:53:40 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Utari Onzo wrote:
Sammie MacWinters wrote:
I think you should focus on not destroying freighters full of slaves first.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47805224/


I think your fleet commanders shouldn't bring freighters alongside a fleet with hostile intentions. I'm pretty sure CVA had no idea slaves were inside. Besides, what in God's name are you doing transporting slaves around anyways?


I thought those were used for outpost construction (again, I am not discussing what such a freighter was doing specifically there).



Yes, freighters are deloyed for outpost construction, however this freighter was deployed into CVA territory, not PFR territory. It was there as my superior Lt Kernher stated as a way of attempting to discredit CVA. No one cargo scans freighters when they're in a hostile organisation, accompanied by a hostile aggressor fleet.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2015-07-13 09:54:01 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
While I can not comment on PFR confusing attempt at bringing a freighter full of slaves into CVA sphere of influence, I am also disappointed that CVA chose to shoot down said vessel without any more inquiry.

Surely, someone must have wondered what this weird display was all about, right... ? No questions asked in local ?


That would have been the case had PFR not come into a Diplomacy channel demanding a fight. That might have happened had PFR not fired upon Providence owned infrastructure. That might have happened had PFR not been on the Kill On Sight list for hostile actions. The fact remains PFR chose to bring that freighter with full intent, with a hostile aggressor fleet. For all CVA could tell, maybe it was transporting Sovereignty Blockade Units for lack of blockade runners?

Either way the pilots of the PFR purchased slaves, and held them in a freighter knowingly into territory that has declared their organisation hostile. They have no legal right under Amarr law to own or purchase said slaves, and basic human decency says you don't then ship those innocents out into harms way knowingly.

It's not CVA's responsibility to check they're not harming innocents when their damned region is being attacked left right and center and PFR went about this act with malicious intent to both the Providence armed forces and the innocent souls within that freighter. Any attempt to paint this otherwise is spin. I will pray for the souls of those lost lives.


That is a lot of excuses that actually do not address my point sir, with all due respect... You are just trying to report the blame on PFR while to my eyes, it is widely shared...

Am I wrong ?.. If I am wrong, then I apologize...
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#26 - 2015-07-13 09:59:39 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Utari Onzo wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
While I can not comment on PFR confusing attempt at bringing a freighter full of slaves into CVA sphere of influence, I am also disappointed that CVA chose to shoot down said vessel without any more inquiry.

Surely, someone must have wondered what this weird display was all about, right... ? No questions asked in local ?


That would have been the case had PFR not come into a Diplomacy channel demanding a fight. That might have happened had PFR not fired upon Providence owned infrastructure. That might have happened had PFR not been on the Kill On Sight list for hostile actions. The fact remains PFR chose to bring that freighter with full intent, with a hostile aggressor fleet. For all CVA could tell, maybe it was transporting Sovereignty Blockade Units for lack of blockade runners?

Either way the pilots of the PFR purchased slaves, and held them in a freighter knowingly into territory that has declared their organisation hostile. They have no legal right under Amarr law to own or purchase said slaves, and basic human decency says you don't then ship those innocents out into harms way knowingly.

It's not CVA's responsibility to check they're not harming innocents when their damned region is being attacked left right and center and PFR went about this act with malicious intent to both the Providence armed forces and the innocent souls within that freighter. Any attempt to paint this otherwise is spin. I will pray for the souls of those lost lives.


That is a lot of excuses that actually do not address my point sir, with all due respect... You are just trying to report the blame on PFR while to my eyes, it is widely shared...

Am I wrong ?.. If I am wrong, then I apologize...



You are wrong Ms Farel. Should CVA kindly ask every fleet thats shooting its structures what their intent is and what their ships are carrying? I'm not sure if you have some bias involved here but as I have stated numerous times PFR deliberately took that freighter out to die and CVA did the right thing by attacking the hostile fleet. If PFR declared their intentions and the contents of that freighter first, before shooting structures and forcing a rapid defence, investigations could have been carried out. I'd like to see anyone conduct a thorough cargo scan and investigation of intent when they're being shot at.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2015-07-13 10:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
I do not understand why you are trying to drag the discussion over the strategy that brought up PFR doing what they did.

And you still do not answer my point.... Why ? I just asked why something so obviously weird as this fleet was not noticed ?

Is that so hard to shoot down the fleet like it was done, but letting the freighter alive the time to ask for clarifications and inquiries ?

No matter the excuses, that sounds like a military blunder to me... Some could even say, an eagerness to kill that is so common to capsuleers.
Jev North
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-07-13 10:16:07 UTC
Maybe. From what I've understood so far, assuming the freighter was present as part of some kind of sane, strategic plan on the part of PFR was in fact a courtesy.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#29 - 2015-07-13 10:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Ms. Farel,

As a NRDS entity, CVA already makes many allowances for free travel through their space. Non-KOS neutral entities are not fired on. If this freighter had not been KOS, it would have been able to pass unharmed. This is far more lenient than any other area of null security space, where anyone and everyone who is not a member of the alliance or coalition is destroyed immediately.

PFR were not one of those neutral entities allowed to pass safely. They were previously declared KOS to CVA. They knew they were KOS to CVA. Therefore, one of their transports moving into Providence is not given a second look, because the owning alliance of that transport has already been identified as an enemy of Providence.

Neutral entities are given the opportunity for clarifications and inquiries. Hostile entities are not. That is, after all, what "Kill on Sight" means, in no uncertain terms.

The fault on this incident lies with PFR willingly sending a passenger freighter into hostile territory, despite knowing what would happen to it.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2015-07-13 10:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Ms Kerhner,

You are telling me nothing new, really... I have been Providence Holder in the past, and had we made such a blunder, we would have made apologies and promises to do better next time, would have striven harder to better results, and not hidden behind our NRDS policy, which was a source of pride, but also humilty.

I have always admired CVA for what it stood for and what it taught me. I also can recognize that CVA sometimes lacks a bit in the field of diplomacy (for probably perfectly legitimate reasons, but they still remain excuses), and have always suffered from diplomatic cases that badly ended due to a certain inability to admit faults.


Jev North wrote:
Maybe. From what I've understood so far, assuming the freighter was present as part of some kind of sane, strategic plan on the part of PFR was in fact a courtesy.


Ah, sorry to inquire, but... Who said it was sane or strategic...?
Jev North
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-07-13 10:27:18 UTC
Nobody. It is in fact completely insane to shove a freighter with people aboard into hostile space for no discernible reason, then pin the blame for their destruction on the attacking entity.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#32 - 2015-07-13 10:35:09 UTC
Killing on sight a ship flown by a Kill-On-Sight alliance. Apparently it is a blunder to enforce border controls.

I don't understand the sort of backwards moralizing involved in blaming law enforcement for carrying out the law instead of the criminal for breaking it.
Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-07-13 11:25:01 UTC
Please remember this is Lord Vaari's call for support.

The discussion of this tragedy should be continued in a seperate place.

Ginia Itonula
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-07-13 12:24:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginia Itonula
Kontrahage wrote:
Please remember this is Lord Vaari's call for support.

The discussion of this tragedy should be continued in a seperate place.



Indeed. It is important that his call is heard. It is of utmost strategic importance that all supporters of the usurper Sarum be present and accounted for, so that they may be wiped out without a chance for their perfidious cause to ever return.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#35 - 2015-07-13 20:12:04 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Combat ships do not carry cargo scanners as part of their standard loadout, Mr. Iyammarok. Your own kill record shows you yourself are quite aware of this fact, as I spotted no cargo scanners on any of your ships.

Deliberately sending a freighter loaded with innocent people into harm's way in order to discredit an adversary is a tactic used by such monsters as Nauplius. It is despicable that some members of Phoebe Freeport Republic are not above such attempts at creating public controversy.


a few small points.

1) I don't make a habit of attacking freighters, unless it's a known ally of a group I have been at war with.
2) I don't often lose ships to freighters, So my losses wouldn't show whether I use a cargo scanner, would they?
3) I'm also sure that you are well aware that the Kill record does not show anywhere near the full specturm of a pilot's knowledge. but to be clear, if I am intending to attack any form of hauler, i'd make damn sure i know what's in the thing first.

Simply put, regardless of it's location, a freighter is a non combatant. The choice to fire upon it was made by CVA.
You cannot absolve yourself of guilt by claiming that the freighter was KOS, in fact, that simply reinforces your guilt.
Their blood, is on your hands. You chose to fire upon an unarmed cargo hauling vessel without checking it's contents

No one forced you to do so.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#36 - 2015-07-13 20:20:11 UTC
Me? I wasn't there, Mr. Iyammarrok.

As for your points, the freighter was in a fleet of carriers that were attacking CVA structures. So it was not simply a lone freighter. It was a KOS freighter, in a KOS fleet, that was actively attacking CVA outposts.

But of course, continue to blame CVA, just because they're Amarr. The usual blaming law enforcement instead of the criminal.
Siddhar Gangari
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#37 - 2015-07-13 20:31:08 UTC
Earl of Sosan III, you say? Funny, I didn't see you on the battlefield when we liberated it from the Slavers' claws.
Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#38 - 2015-07-14 01:53:33 UTC
I believe the many topics within this comms thread is ample ammunition to rise up together against heathens that would dare despoil the wealth and majesty that Amarrians have built and developed in Providence all for God's Glory, and all for the Empires mandate of reclaiming lost souls to God.

Lord Vaari has for many years stood devoted to the cause of Amarr and his fervency is unquestioned.

It is an exemplar to us all, that we might focus on that which threatens the cause of Amarr (Criminal factions invading Providence, and the unknown yet ever impending threat of the Drifters).

Good and faithful Amarrians, do not ask for fears to be removed; ask for courage equal to the fears. Tell your ship's crews, and those that serve you planetside, as well as any holy slaves under your care. Let us not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless when facing them.

God honors the faithful, as He so graciously demonstrated at the invasion of the Drifter Armada.

We did not cower. We did not back away. We obeyed, and defended God's domain, and emerged victorious.

May God guide our holy lasers thusly, and give us wisdom and resolve in the coming days, Amen.

His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams. Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2015-07-14 02:01:34 UTC
I'm glad to see that CVA still claims to support the truth.

The truth is a wonderful, blessed thing.


"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Quin Mansa
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-07-14 06:13:46 UTC
Kahar Dex wrote:
Good and faithful Amarrians, do not ask for fears to be removed; ask for courage equal to the fears. Tell your ship's crews, and those that serve you planetside, as well as any holy slaves under your care. Let us not pray to be sheltered from dangers but to be fearless when facing them.

Amen, your Eminence.

The hurusiyyad will commit its meagre resources to bulwark the eastern border regions of the Empire, either through the donation of support vessels or transportation of supplies to supplant what is moved to the south. Our pickets will be spurred withal to press the defense of the home worlds.

"Today, our future is in our hands, and His light shines down upon us." - Her Holiness Catiz I

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