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Barrier to entry is time and expense of T2 stuff, not skill points
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Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2015-07-12 06:02:51 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
He's not successful because of the SP his character has, he's successful despite it; because he knows how to utilise the little SP his character has to maximum effect.
Which is my point really. As much as people like to say that skill >>> SP, the best proof available for the argument is that all you'll be able to reliably kill are sleepy Interceptors.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#102 - 2015-07-12 06:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Well it is a conundrum. It's as if I could reach into another reality and pull out wealth to better my living standards here. But since PLEX was introduced, all other prices imo have remained generally stable enough, I mean I don't see extravagant prices for equipment so to really change the course of gameplay. But CCP has in the past had to step in an manipulate the PLEX market, and how that will be maintained for a decade is unknown, or how it will effect equipment costs which is more my concern since I just don't deal with PLEX directly. But the unknown doesn't mean that there is an issue, it's just unknown. I see no issue.

And yeah, still touching on the original post rather than just his replies, SP is really only an issue for a very short amount of time in the game. By the time you hit say the end of an extended trial, you should be already sitting in a good position if you were focused on your training. This is more about player skill and the understanding that comes with that, rather than raw SP. Low SP characters can do quite a lot in this game, more than any one person can do really for the amount of time before even more SP to do other things. I'm sure there will always be new players that will be just downright upset that they can't do incursion by day 3, likely to farm for PLEX so they don't need to pay for their account time.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Lucy Lopez
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2015-07-12 08:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lopez
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BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2015-07-12 11:26:02 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Niriel Greez wrote:
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.

Why do they need it easier than tens of thousands of people who had no issues? And why do people keep using "more accessible" wrongly, when it's actually "faster to get gratification" ? Lowering skillpoint investments does not make anything more acceswible. It's still as easily acceswible as it was before. Adding skills to a queue is not complicated.

Wh this is about is faster gratification, not accessibility. Accessibility is about removing barriers and TIME is not a barrier.

This politically correct hogwash needs to end. People need to call them what they are.

So why do they need it easier than the tens of thousands before them? Big smile

Angelica, you are beating a dead horse. The guy feels entitled...
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2015-07-12 11:40:01 UTC
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Sykaotic wrote:
If you do not have the skill, then skill points is irrelavant.


This is the most oft-spoken lie in EVE. It's not a total lie, because it's mostly true for 1v1/small gang PvP, and to a certain extent market PvP... but for pretty much everything else it's a big ol' lie.

It's actually very valid and true outside of combat PvP as well. Most things you will do better with more skill, even at lower skillpoints.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Lucy Lopez
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-07-12 12:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lopez
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Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#107 - 2015-07-12 12:38:52 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?


Why is noone asking how a guy with a monocle is unable to afford t2 ships?
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2015-07-12 13:39:14 UTC
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Sykaotic wrote:
If you do not have the skill, then skill points is irrelavant.


This is the most oft-spoken lie in EVE. It's not a total lie, because it's mostly true for 1v1/small gang PvP, and to a certain extent market PvP... but for pretty much everything else it's a big ol' lie.

It's actually very valid and true outside of combat PvP as well. Most things you will do better with more skill, even at lower skillpoints.


Point is there are things you simply can't do, or do very effectively, if you don't have enough SP invested in the relevant skill, and no amount of player skill will change that.

It's just a fact of EVE, and it's why the character bazaar is a thing.

It's irrelevant, though, because you can do so many things and efficiency is NOT a necessity! You people have no real arguments. It all collapses to "i feel inadequate and can't deal with that even though it's my fault and purely imaginary". No one provided a list of things you can't do as a noob. Something reasonable. No one. And it's no riddle why either, right?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Lucy Lopez
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2015-07-12 14:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Lopez
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Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2015-07-12 14:09:31 UTC
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
It's irrelevant, though, because you can do so many things and efficiency is NOT a necessity! You people have no real arguments. It all collapses to "i feel inadequate and can't deal with that even though it's my fault and purely imaginary". No one provided a list of things you can't do as a noob. Something reasonable. No one. And it's no riddle why either, right?


Sigh. You were actually being fairly normal and reasonable until your inner Sol had to go and spoil it all.
Keep the nonsense for yourself. Give us a list of things new players can't do within the first few days. Reasonable things, not something a new player should not be able to do, like jumping into a battleship. And remember that efficiency is of no matter whatsoever.

Give your words some ground, because you have none. Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
#111 - 2015-07-12 16:23:45 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


Training doesn't make you good at PVP. Nor does isk. People lose expensive ships often in fights they should not. Does T2/Faction fitting ships make them better in terms of stats on the ship? Yes it does. However, it does not effect the pilots skill. Learning how to work and manage your ship and modules is what will help with the survival of the ship as well as experience by doing it all, messing up and learning from it.

Earning isk is its own thing. Different ways to make isk passively, if you are a casual player you need to find out what works best for you. Also when to take the time to farm isk and when to PVP.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#112 - 2015-07-12 23:53:58 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?
Why is noone asking how a guy with a monocle is unable to afford t2 ships?
Don't know about the others but it is yet another sour looking face. Didn't really look at it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2015-07-13 00:49:32 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
It's irrelevant, though, because you can do so many things and efficiency is NOT a necessity! You people have no real arguments. It all collapses to "i feel inadequate and can't deal with that even though it's my fault and purely imaginary". No one provided a list of things you can't do as a noob. Something reasonable. No one. And it's no riddle why either, right?


Sigh. You were actually being fairly normal and reasonable until your inner Sol had to go and spoil it all.
Keep the nonsense for yourself. Give us a list of things new players can't do within the first few days. Reasonable things, not something a new player should not be able to do, like jumping into a battleship. And remember that efficiency is of no matter whatsoever.

Give your words some ground, because you have none. Lol


Can't run higher level missions, combat sites, hacking sites, wormhole sites, or defeat 1v1 a pilot of equal ability in the same fit with higher SP in relevant skills.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#114 - 2015-07-13 01:30:06 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Can't run higher level missions, combat sites, hacking sites, wormhole sites, or defeat 1v1 a pilot of equal ability in the same fit with higher SP in relevant skills.

But that's not "reasonable" nor accurate. I mean, talking the few first days, so what?? Generally by the time a newbie starts with the basic tutorial, does all the career agents, then completes the newbie epic mission arc (bloodstained stars) about a month has passed and they have SP and ships to do more, including things on that list. Looks more an entitlement list, for a solo player, as all that could be done the first few days with another player along. After playing EVE for years, why can't I run incursions solo and even earn a PLEX a day from it to f2p?!? it's so not fairrrr Cry

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2015-07-13 01:30:09 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
SP isn't the be all and end all of PvP, player skill plays just as much a part as character skills.
Not really. You can check out the eveiseasy YouTube channel. While impressed with himself about how he's able to "nullsec PVP" at 17 days, it's also worth noting his engagement profile isn't that far off from CODE's, even though he's got years of PvP experience.
CODE.'s engagement profile is one that works extremely well, surprise is a force multiplier and a powerful tactic. His use of a fresh character is a deception, intended or not, which is also a force multiplier if his opponents bother to check the character details and underestimate him.

The major difference is that a sizable percentage of CODE.'s target audience are often doing something unrelated when CODE. roll in. His targets are usually at the keyboard.

His player skills show in his manual ship handling, his management of various factors such as range, overheat damage, and speed etc. He knows exactly what his ship and in general terms his opponent's ships are capable of, he knows what tactics they're likely to use against him and their counters, he also knows how to take advantage of any mistakes they make.

He's not successful because of the SP his character has, he's successful despite it; because he knows how to utilise the little SP his character has to maximum effect.


His opponents were almost uniformly terrible. I would love to see someone try that in FW space against people who are actually good at Frigates Online.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2015-07-13 01:43:35 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Can't run higher level missions, combat sites, hacking sites, wormhole sites, or defeat 1v1 a pilot of equal ability in the same fit with higher SP in relevant skills.

But that's not "reasonable" nor accurate. I mean, talking the few first days, so what?? Generally by the time a newbie starts with the basic tutorial, does all the career agents, then completes the newbie epic mission arc (bloodstained stars) about a month has passed and they have SP and ships to do more, including things on that list. Looks more an entitlement list, for a solo player, as all that could be done the first few days with another player along. After playing EVE for years, why can't I run incursions solo and even earn a PLEX a day from it to f2p?!? it's so not fairrrr Cry



Of course that could all be done having a high SP player do it while you watch. That's not my point. I can get on killmails on day one by finding a friendly blob. Also not the point. Telling new players that SP doesn't limit them at all is setting them up to lose all their ISK trying to do things they don't have the SP much less the knowledge for. People need to be realistic. I've only been playing for a year and a half and I well remember the challenges of the first few months. Increased knowledge definitely plays a huge role in individual effectiveness but so does SP gains bringing your commonly flown ships' performance up relatively close to bittervet level, at least to where you only need to be a bit better than the opposition to eke out a win. And for the most part ISK generation at low SP levels is sufficiently difficult that even a steady stream of T1 frigate losses requires hours of grinding to compensate.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Progression is part of any MMO. But telling Joe Newbro he can do anything if he is just smart enough is not accurate.
Ramshack Z
Maeda-Koru Group
#117 - 2015-07-13 02:00:04 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

His opponents were almost uniformly terrible. I would love to see someone try that in FW space against people who are actually good at Frigates Online.


That's really just a problem with pvp in empire space: link alts and the near non-factor risk of losing pirate implants with the absence of bubbles presents an extremely uneven playing field, more so even than mr. newbie trying to juke a sabre parked on a nullsec gate.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#118 - 2015-07-13 02:15:35 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


I don't see anything wrong with this. Progression is part of any MMO. But telling Joe Newbro he can do anything if he is just smart enough is not accurate.
Well fair enough, but then I'd never say a newbie can do anything in this game, not solo anyway. And even then, still some things even in a group they cannot do, at least a small number of things. But generally they can participate in any activity, just not do everything in that activity, nor do it solo. This is in contrast to most any other mmo where progression levels do in fact limit participation. And even here with high SP, you are still limited in some things to co-op play in some form. This is just the nature of EVE, everything can't be done by anyone, vet and newbie alike.

1v1 is not even really a thing for EVE, but a newbie can get into a gang/fleet and run tackle, and while they learn how EVE works. Exploration, still a career mission line for that? That was one of the first things I got into when I was new, did it for years, anyway back before the mini-game and you had to have weapons to run radar sites. Seems since then, that has become even more newbie friendly, too much however. Across the board this game use to be harder for newbies, but in recent years CCP has opened up most everything for someone new, regardless of SP.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2015-07-13 02:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerasia
Webvan wrote:
But that's not "reasonable" nor accurate. I mean, talking the few first days, so what?? Generally by the time a newbie starts with the basic tutorial, does all the career agents, then completes the newbie epic mission arc (bloodstained stars) about a month has passed and they have SP and ships to do more, including things on that list. Looks more an entitlement list, for a solo player, as all that could be done the first few days with another player along. After playing EVE for years, why can't I run incursions solo and even earn a PLEX a day from it to f2p?!? it's so not fairrrr Cry

I appreciate the exaggeration of "solo", but other than making bittervet tears runneth over would making Incursions doable from day one (assuming you've got an ISK faucet handy to pay for the initial bling) hurt anything?

Ratting in EVE is just mining with more letters. I remember having some hope for Sleepers back when they were introduced, but I've yet to see anything which doesn't boil down to "DPS >= X and Tank >= Y? You win." It's the ISK faucet to mirror the material faucet of mining, nothing more. EVE doesn't even use it as a teaching tool for piloting - it's just there as a way to earn ISK to get more ships blown up.

Which almost sounds like there's no difference between L1s and Incursions. Sadly, there's still the issue of ISK/hour. Getting into fights with players loses you ships constantly. If I want to pay for replacements, I need ISK. How many L1s does it take to replace a PVP fit combat frigate? 5? 10? 20? God help you if you want to fly T2.

I'm not sure if I care about the ability to do a particular task on day 1, but I do think that the newbros should have the capability of earning ISK on the level with their more bitter peers early on, so they can actually pay for the losses involved in fighting for their spot in EVE.

Webvan wrote:
Across the board this game use to be harder for newbies, but in recent years CCP has opened up most everything for someone new, regardless of SP.
You almost make it sound like a bad thing.


PS:
Somewhat off topic, but does that epic arc actually take a month to complete? I haven't done it, as it asks me to wander into some relatively hostile space, but I know you can do the career agents in an afternoon.
Ramshack Z
Maeda-Koru Group
#120 - 2015-07-13 02:27:35 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Seems since then, that has become even more newbie friendly, too much however. Across the board this game use to be harder for newbies, but in recent years CCP has opened up most everything for someone new, regardless of SP.


I disagree. What they did with exploration was great. I adapted to the new style and though the rewards have diminished due to competition the fact I'm seeing young players make their way up without even touching goddamned missions or mining lasers is a thing of beauty. The fact they're also encouraged to go make targets of themselves in w-space and null is just icing on the cake. Combat sites are still available for those of us with the sp and alts to run them efficiently. I don't think anything of value was lost.