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Barrier to entry is time and expense of T2 stuff, not skill points
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Jacques d'Orleans
#81 - 2015-07-10 17:18:50 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
Aerasia wrote:
Jacques d'Orleans wrote:
I'm a quite new player (just 5Million SP) and i highly disagree with your oppinion!
I have a question then.

You've got 5M SP on a 10 month old character. If it wasn't the grind to T2, what made you give up on EVE for nearly 8 months?


A Back surgery (had a spine dislocation) and a lengthy rehab, came back just a few days ago.


Shocked

Welcome back, and here's to a full recovery!


Thanks mate, but it didn't went as expected, i'm on full disability payment now. Can't even lift two six packs anymore.

Breakfast is the most important drink of the day.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-07-10 20:23:55 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figured it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


You have it backwards. Skillpoints are far more important than ISK. A 50M SP player will generally have more options for efficiently generating ISK than a 5-10M SP player. The conversion rate of SP to ISK favors the former heavily; witness the billions of ISK paid out regularly to purchase high skilled characters.

There is always going to be an element of progression in any MMO. EVE actually works better than many because it allows you to train skills in real time while offline. Long train times and the necessity of ISK grinding is the trade-off.

The "SP doesn't matter" people are rampant here I see. That is nonsense. SP has a huge bearing on everything you do ingame; otherwise there would be no point in its existence. This isn't a bad thing per se, but having veteran players consistently deny the fact gives new players an inaccurate view of the game.

Yes, you can find and kill a 100M SP moron in a faction battleship with a month old character in a frigate if you look hard enough.
Stupid people will always find a way to lose no matter how great their advantage. They're outliers though.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-07-10 21:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Cypherous wrote:


Giving them more SP will make them more effective and allow them to be more competitive early on, you dont "have" to have T2 to PvP, in a small gang even a T1 frig with tackle can be useful, depending on where the extra SP is it can also make it much easier to fit a ship with modules, compare the fits of someone with no core fitting skills to someone with maxed base core fitting skills, i'm all for giving the new cannon fodder an easier time, we need more meatshields :P



Yes bring a T1 frigate, you won't even make it to the fight, hell you probably won't even be scrammed, that arty svipul on gate will have you in your pod moment you click warp. Then he might just lock and scram your pod while your still processing that fact you just died and are trying to warp away.

Welcome to EVE, and don't think bringing more expensive ships is a good idea either, because we all know how that ends.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2015-07-11 04:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Count of MonteCylon wrote:


My radical solution would be to eliminate T2 ships and mods which have advantages instead of just differences and deflate the value of ISK in the economy.


Deflation is not usually a good economic policy.

This too.

For those too lazy to click links,

Quote:
Thus inflation encourages short term consumption and can similarly over-stimulate investment in projects that may not be worthwhile in real terms (for example the housing or dot.com bubbles), while deflation retards investment even when there is a real-world demand not being met. In modern economies, deflation is usually caused by a drop in aggregate demand, and is associated with economic depression, as occurred in the Great Depression and the Long Depression.


For those interested in how it would be implemented in this game, here is how I see it being accomplished:

All rat bounties--gone.
NPC Buy Orders--gone.
Incursion rewards--gone.
Insurance payouts--gone.
Agent payouts--gone.

No more ISK entering the economy, coupled with ISK sinks means the money supply will shrink and you'll have deflation. The first place you'll likely see the effects are in the PLEX market. My guess is that the current price would collapse over night.

Once the PLEX market was done falling apart, my guess is the rest of the economy would see falling prices as well. With prices falling between the time of purchasing the raw materials and time of sale of the finished item we might see a decrease in overall economic output in the game.

Basically a contracting economy for the game.

So the OP's idea of deflation is just flat out boneheadedly stupid. Making the case for disinflation...that is another topic.

Edit:

Oh, and if the OP is thinking that older/more established Eve players are getting richer due to inflation...well perhaps we should get him a special ship named "the short bus". People have large amounts of ISK in their wallets when there is positive inflation are actually seeing their purchasing power decline.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-07-11 07:03:18 UTC
I think this is all wrong. When Eve gets tighter, it will feel better and we'll have more fun!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Demolishar
United Aggression
#86 - 2015-07-11 22:09:50 UTC
You people don't seem to understand. Skillpoints ARE isk. While the character bazaar exists, the only two things that matter are your wealth and your skill.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-07-12 00:15:36 UTC
Demolishar wrote:
You people don't seem to understand. Skillpoints ARE isk. While the character bazaar exists, the only two things that matter are your wealth and your skill.


You could probably actually work out a conversion rate based on character bazaar sale prices.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#88 - 2015-07-12 00:49:30 UTC
Yes, deflation is no solution. Nor is hyper-deflation. Nor to a problem that doesn't really exist. ISK in EVE is mostly fiat monies. Although, in many ways it's gold standard is PLEX. But then PLEX doesn't directly create money in EVE, only amasses it. But it does have an influence, in that it drives some players to create more fiat money from isk faucets where as they would not so much otherwise. Removing NPC payouts would only make things worse, at least for everyone but those dedicated farmers. And deflation would only make things better for those that have amassed considerable wealth already, not for avg players looking to waste isk breaking things.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2015-07-12 02:20:20 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Yes, deflation is no solution. Nor is hyper-deflation. Nor to a problem that doesn't really exist. ISK in EVE is mostly fiat monies. Although, in many ways it's gold standard is PLEX. But then PLEX doesn't directly create money in EVE, only amasses it. But it does have an influence, in that it drives some players to create more fiat money from isk faucets where as they would not so much otherwise. Removing NPC payouts would only make things worse, at least for everyone but those dedicated farmers. And deflation would only make things better for those that have amassed considerable wealth already, not for avg players looking to waste isk breaking things.


EVE does not have hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is what happens when people in an economy no longer believe in their fiat currency. That has not happened in Eve.

As for PLEX, it serves a dual purpose of forcing down the price of illegal ISK. While this might not seem like a good thing the point is that it reduces the revenues for ISK sellers. Secondly, PLEX also help redistribute wealth in game. PLEX is not really a gold standard in that outside of the game they have no innate value.

And no, deflation is almost surely a bad thing for the game. Reducing the rate of inflation might be good, but deflation should be considered very, very carefully. I see no reason for it at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2015-07-12 02:21:58 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
You people don't seem to understand. Skillpoints ARE isk. While the character bazaar exists, the only two things that matter are your wealth and your skill.


You could probably actually work out a conversion rate based on character bazaar sale prices.


It is a conversion rate that shows decreasing returns to scale IMO and depends on the skills. For example, a good JF pilot will earn very high ISK to SP, whereas a character with more SP, but not in the "right" skills will have a lower ISK to SP ratio.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#91 - 2015-07-12 02:25:36 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
The "SP doesn't matter" people are rampant here I see. That is nonsense. SP has a huge bearing on everything you do ingame; otherwise there would be no point in its existence. This isn't a bad thing per se, but having veteran players consistently deny the fact gives new players an inaccurate view of the game.
It's not that SP doesn't matter, it's that it's fairly useless if you don't know how to leverage it; that comes with experience and practice.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2015-07-12 02:41:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It's not that SP doesn't matter, it's that it's fairly useless if you don't know how to leverage it; that comes with experience and practice.
Which is true. And if all you want to do is level your Raven, then you probably won't have a problem. But if you want to compete with other people, and especially if you're looking at small scale PvP - then SP becomes really important. All those +10/15/20%'s start to add up. And that's not even touching ISK advantages. But as Demerius pointed out, generating ISK also correlates very well with SP.

I guarantee you that if I took two players:
- One with the existing NPE.
- One with a 100M SP character.

Our second player is going to be able to get all that "experience and practice" far faster. The only barrier to their progress is going to be learning the game and bringing in ISK; and that happens far faster than SP is earned.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#93 - 2015-07-12 02:59:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


EVE does not have hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is what happens when people in an economy no longer believe in their fiat currency. That has not happened in Eve.

As for PLEX, it serves a dual purpose of forcing down the price of illegal ISK. While this might not seem like a good thing the point is that it reduces the revenues for ISK sellers. Secondly, PLEX also help redistribute wealth in game. PLEX is not really a gold standard in that outside of the game they have no innate value.

And no, deflation is almost surely a bad thing for the game. Reducing the rate of inflation might be good, but deflation should be considered very, very carefully. I see no reason for it at all.

I had nothing to say about "hyperinflation", nor said my view of deflation as positive. In many ways PLEX is a gold standard, but I didn't say directly is, just has some similarities, or I would have not called ISK fiat money. Read-read.

Consequences in everything. PLEX may curve player RMT, but it has it's limits as well as it's costs. Like I mentioned, it drives players to commit more time to farming, thus injects more isk into the system that wouldn't have otherwise been there. As players want more for their PLEX, buyers need to farm more, injecting even more ISK into the system. It's not even really running on supply and demand any longer, just as much as they can get which they will with enough patience. Last years economy report at fanfest kinda showed that.

But not all prices go up, I see prices on some items go down. But in that, it's more of supply and demand as there is imbalance in the sandbox and favoritism often shifts with a few lines of code.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#94 - 2015-07-12 03:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aerasia wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It's not that SP doesn't matter, it's that it's fairly useless if you don't know how to leverage it; that comes with experience and practice.
Which is true. And if all you want to do is level your Raven, then you probably won't have a problem. But if you want to compete with other people, and especially if you're looking at small scale PvP - then SP becomes really important. All those +10/15/20%'s start to add up.
I agree with you to a certain extent, SP is important for PvP inasmuch as it boosts both choice and potential success. To make the right choices, and to make the most of that potential success is where the experience and practice come in, they're just as important as the SP, and are often earned by losing and learning from it.

SP isn't the be all and end all of PvP, player skill plays just as much a part as character skills.

Quote:
And that's not even touching ISK advantages. But as Demerius pointed out, generating ISK also correlates very well with SP.
Indeed it does, it also correlates with learning the ins and outs of ISK making activities that aren't covered by the skillbooks.

Quote:
I guarantee you that if I took two players:
- One with the existing NPE.
- One with a 100M SP character.

Our second player is going to be able to get all that "experience and practice" far faster. The only barrier to their progress is going to be learning the game and bringing in ISK; and that happens far faster than SP is earned.
Unless we're talking two complete newbies then it's an unfair comparison, a player with 100M SP is going to have considerably more experience of game mechanics and basic gameplay concepts even if they've only PvE'd, which places them at a significant advantage.

I'll assume for the purposes of this post that we are talking about 2 newbies. One has completed the NPE, the other thinks they can pay to win and has purchased a 100M SP character from the bazaar and cashed in some PLEX for funds; both wish to PvP. Both are tutored by an experienced PvPer.

The person with low SP who is flying frigates is definitely going to have more fun, their ship losses are going to affordable and they'll probably learn faster than the player who thinks they can pay to win; for one simple reason, they're more likely to stick around, with or without a tutor. Even with a tutor the latter is likely to quit if they don't listen and learn, and realise that they can't chuck money at Eve and win, their loss mails are likely to be both hilarious and expensive.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#95 - 2015-07-12 03:25:04 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


EVE does not have hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is what happens when people in an economy no longer believe in their fiat currency. That has not happened in Eve.

As for PLEX, it serves a dual purpose of forcing down the price of illegal ISK. While this might not seem like a good thing the point is that it reduces the revenues for ISK sellers. Secondly, PLEX also help redistribute wealth in game. PLEX is not really a gold standard in that outside of the game they have no innate value.

And no, deflation is almost surely a bad thing for the game. Reducing the rate of inflation might be good, but deflation should be considered very, very carefully. I see no reason for it at all.

I had nothing to say about "hyperinflation", nor said my view of deflation as positive. In many ways PLEX is a gold standard, but I didn't say directly is, just has some similarities, or I would have not called ISK fiat money. Read-read.

Consequences in everything. PLEX may curve player RMT, but it has it's limits as well as it's costs. Like I mentioned, it drives players to commit more time to farming, thus injects more isk into the system that wouldn't have otherwise been there. As players want more for their PLEX, buyers need to farm more, injecting even more ISK into the system. It's not even really running on supply and demand any longer, just as much as they can get which they will with enough patience. Last years economy report at fanfest kinda showed that.

But not all prices go up, I see prices on some items go down. But in that, it's more of supply and demand as there is imbalance in the sandbox and favoritism often shifts with a few lines of code.


Regarding hyperinflation, you did mention it and I was just pointing out what it really is. Inflation is not a continuum. There is a discontinuity in there so that everything can seem fine, when "BAM!" you suddenly have hyperinflation.

As for PLEX, you are not quite correct. Yes people might farm longer as prices go up, but in regards to that I'll invoke the concept of diminishing marginal rates of substitution. A player who is PLEXing his account is willing to substitute his free time for a PLEX. As the price of a PLEX in game goes up that means the player has to devote more and more of his free time towards earning a PLEX. But free time has value and after a point the player will stop. He'll try to PLEX less accounts or just go back to paying with RL money. Or to put it differently, as PLEX prices rise, our farmer is going to be willing to trade smaller and smaller amounts of free time towards earning a PLEX.

Here is a concrete example, suppose PLEX cost 800 million ISK. The player is quite willing trade off 8 hours of his free time to earn a PLEX. But then the price of PLEX go up to 900 million necessitating another hour of time to buy that PLEX. But due to diminishing marginal rate of substitution the player isn't willing to devote another hour of free time to earn that PLEX. Suppose he'll be happy do give up 45 minutes, but not an hour. Now he'll have to pay RL money for the next month and in the following month PLEX, or find another source of ISK in game that can make up the short fall (i.e., if he has the skills he might start a PI farm which will take only 45 minutes a month, but give him that extra 100 million he needs).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2015-07-12 03:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Aerasia wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


[quote]I guarantee you that if I took two players:
- One with the existing NPE.
- One with a 100M SP character.

Our second player is going to be able to get all that "experience and practice" far faster. The only barrier to their progress is going to be learning the game and bringing in ISK; and that happens far faster than SP is earned.


Unless we're talking two complete newbies then it's an unfair comparison, a player with 100M SP is going to have considerably more experience of game mechanics and basic gameplay concepts even if they've only PvE'd, which places them at a significant advantage.

I'll assume for the purposes of this post that we are talking about 2 newbies. One has completed the NPE, the other thinks they can pay to win and have purchased a 100M SP character from the bazaar and cashed in some PLEX for funds; both wish to PvP. Both are tutored by an experienced PvPer.

The person with low SP who is flying frigates is definitely going to have more fun, their ship losses are going to affordable and they'll probably learn faster than the player who thinks they can pay to win; for one simple reason, they're more likely to stick around, with or without a tutor. Even with a tutor the latter is likely to quit if they don't listen and learn, or realise that they can't chuck money at Eve and win, their loss mails are likely to be both hilarious and expensive.


I think there is alot of truth in this.

Consider also that the guy who has completed the NPE, found a group to help him along (i.e. his tutor). Sure he'll likely lose lots of ships...but cheap ships and his group will likely help him along with ISK, skill books, and learning to make ISK.

The other dude will likely be thrust into fits he is in now way ready for, and will likely think his initial expenditure will help him win fights....but chances are he wont because he'll make the same noob mistakes our other NPE only guy will make. And he may not learn form them as much since he'll be thinking, "I should have won, I have a 100 million SP character I spent 8 billion on!!!"

In the end, I could see the NPE only guy sticking around far longer than Mr. Shortcut.

Which brings us back to the OP. The idea that you can go the "lone wolf" route right out of the gate in this game means you have chosen a rather rough road. Going out and finding a good group of guys you can play the game with, learn from, and have fun with...you'll likely stay around in game far, far longer. That is the route all new players would be advised to take irrespective of if you plan on doing PvP, PvE, industry or whatever. That is how you overcome the barrier to entry.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2015-07-12 03:43:36 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
SP isn't the be all and end all of PvP, player skill plays just as much a part as character skills.
Not really. You can check out the eveiseasy YouTube channel. While impressed with himself about how he's able to "nullsec PVP" at 17 days, it's also worth noting his engagement profile isn't that far off from CODE's, even though he's got years of PvP experience.
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'll assume for the purposes of this post that we are talking about 2 newbies. One has completed the NPE, the other thinks he can pay to win and has purchased a 100M SP character from the bazaar and cashed in some PLEX for funds; both wish to PvP.

The guy with low SP who is flying frigates is definitely going to have more fun, his ship losses are going to affordable, he'll probably learn faster than the guy who thinks he can pay to win; for one simple reason, he's more likely to stick around, the latter is likely to quit once he realises he can't chuck money at Eve and win, his loss mails are likely to be hilarious and expensive.
Yes, I do mean two newbies - sorry if that wasn't clear.

What I don't mean however is making the second player pay for their SP. I mean just start them off with 100M SP (I'm imagining here a faction focused sub-cap build; core skills taken care of, most of the T2 ships unlocked, almost all T2 modules, etc). They'll both start off in the starter system, get directed to the same opportunities and career agents.

I agree that the 100M SP character is going to overreach and end up with some very blingy killmails. But then, that's not much different than the regular mission runner that sells their L3 ship to afford a shiny BS - only to lose it because they underestimated L4s. Or having their first Mining Barge blown up because they didn't follow the CODE.

The advantage the 100M SP character will have is the fact their growth is dependent on their growth. As they figure out ways to do the things they want, they'll just be able to go out and do them. No skill queue reorganization required.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#98 - 2015-07-12 03:58:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aerasia wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
SP isn't the be all and end all of PvP, player skill plays just as much a part as character skills.
Not really. You can check out the eveiseasy YouTube channel. While impressed with himself about how he's able to "nullsec PVP" at 17 days, it's also worth noting his engagement profile isn't that far off from CODE's, even though he's got years of PvP experience.
CODE.'s engagement profile is one that works extremely well, surprise is a force multiplier and a powerful tactic. His use of a fresh character is a deception, intended or not, which is also a force multiplier if his opponents bother to check the character details and underestimate him.

The major difference is that a sizable percentage of CODE.'s target audience are often doing something unrelated when CODE. roll in. His targets are usually at the keyboard.

His player skills show in his manual ship handling, his management of various factors such as range, overheat damage, and speed etc. He knows exactly what his ship and in general terms his opponent's ships are capable of, he knows what tactics they're likely to use against him and their counters, he also knows how to take advantage of any mistakes they make.

He's not successful because of the SP his character has, he's successful despite it; because he knows how to utilise the little SP his character has to maximum effect.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#99 - 2015-07-12 04:32:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Regarding hyperinflation, you did mention it and I was just pointing out what it really is.


Webvan wrote:
Yes, deflation is no solution. Nor is hyper-deflation. Nor to a problem that doesn't really exist. ISK in EVE is mostly fiat monies. Although, in many ways it's gold standard is PLEX. But then PLEX doesn't directly create money in EVE, only amasses it. But it does have an influence, in that it drives some players to create more fiat money from isk faucets where as they would not so much otherwise. Removing NPC payouts would only make things worse, at least for everyone but those dedicated farmers. And deflation would only make things better for those that have amassed considerable wealth already, not for avg players looking to waste isk breaking things.

Nope ^^ Blink

I was addressing a previous post/s on deflation, nothing here or there about hyperinflation. But you are free to reply back with underlines to where it is in this quote. No worries.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperdeflation.asp

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2015-07-12 05:27:07 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Regarding hyperinflation, you did mention it and I was just pointing out what it really is.


Webvan wrote:
Yes, deflation is no solution. Nor is hyper-deflation. Nor to a problem that doesn't really exist. ISK in EVE is mostly fiat monies. Although, in many ways it's gold standard is PLEX. But then PLEX doesn't directly create money in EVE, only amasses it. But it does have an influence, in that it drives some players to create more fiat money from isk faucets where as they would not so much otherwise. Removing NPC payouts would only make things worse, at least for everyone but those dedicated farmers. And deflation would only make things better for those that have amassed considerable wealth already, not for avg players looking to waste isk breaking things.

Nope ^^ Blink

I was addressing a previous post/s on deflation, nothing here or there about hyperinflation. But you are free to reply back with underlines to where it is in this quote. No worries.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperdeflation.asp


You're right I read your hyperdeflation as hyperinflation, my bad. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online