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Dev blog: Missile guidance modules, the Hecate and balance updates

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Author
Sorrow Mist
Star Angel's Mini-Mart Inc
#41 - 2015-07-09 06:11:41 UTC
So with the great missile love of Aegis promised in the devblogs, has anybody came up with fits that actually IMPROVED missile damage application without sacrificing mid/low slots, ehp ... etc compared to fits prior to the patch?

I only do boring PVE, and I don't feel much love atm, a lot more than often, I can't even pop non-elite cruisers or BCs in a single cruise volley in my 3 pwnage tp Golem, spending way more time in missions and can't say it's making the boring missions anymore enjoyable (in fact, it's much more boring now).

Is this a troll or the devs simply don't use missiles? I don't really need a PVE cruise missile to hit rats at 250km away....but I'd hope it'd do some damage to them at 25km away than just scratch them every 10s ish....

stoicfaux
#42 - 2015-07-09 14:13:18 UTC
Sorrow Mist wrote:
So with the great missile love of Aegis promised in the devblogs, has anybody came up with fits that actually IMPROVED missile damage application without sacrificing mid/low slots, ehp ... etc compared to fits prior to the patch?

I only do boring PVE, and I don't feel much love atm, a lot more than often, I can't even pop non-elite cruisers or BCs in a single cruise volley in my 3 pwnage tp Golem, spending way more time in missions and can't say it's making the boring missions anymore enjoyable (in fact, it's much more boring now).

Is this a troll or the devs simply don't use missiles? I don't really need a PVE cruise missile to hit rats at 250km away....but I'd hope it'd do some damage to them at 25km away than just scratch them every 10s ish....


Use 3 TPs and a MGC II w/Precision script (or Compact should work as well.) It's a small improvement over a 4 TP pre-Aegis Golem.

Although, even though I haven't re-run the numbers, a 4 TP setup + 5% damage implant pre-Aegis Golem should be fine.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Sky Marshal
Core Industry.
Fraternity.
#43 - 2015-07-10 10:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sky Marshal
Seriously...

You just add a Missile Guidance Computer who is less efficient than a Target Painter II by a few percents, and using it is a tedious exercice as Caldari ships can't afford to lose one more medium slot, but as the same time you nerf the rigs who do the same thing, making his usage nearly an obligation. I won't even speak about the Enhancer variant who is just so ridiculous that saying his name is just shameful.

In short, you still consider that missiles are OP and just nerf most of the few remaining Caldari players, excepted the ones who do PVE of course as they can afford to counter it.

Good job. And it is not as there weren't any constructive feedback in the related topic. Oh well, it is now official that you just don't care of it anyway.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#44 - 2015-07-10 10:56:54 UTC
Sky Marshal wrote:
In short, you still consider that missiles are OP and just nerf most of the few remaining Caldari players, excepted the ones who do PVE of course as they can afford to counter it.

Don't forget the missiles specific ECM incoming. I will bet npc will using them more often than players.
CCP still wondering why players use drones all the time...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#45 - 2015-07-10 23:41:37 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Many of us are still waiting for rise to HTFU and post some numbers. I'm extremely curious as to what fit scared the balance team into gutting the missile balance package before it was even available to test by players... and since you did gut the mods before you even fully gave us a preview of them only the balance team knows how well or poorly they would have done pre nerf.


Though that said this is the first time in CCP history that a new item has been both released AND nerfed before players ever fit them.


Maybe it looked something like this?

[Cerberus, Sniper]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Ionic Field Projector II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

240km/180km/120km Faction/Fury/Precision missile range.
Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#46 - 2015-07-10 23:47:37 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Also, im not sure what math you are using. But Missile Velocity and Missile Flight Time have no impact on the missile damage application formula. For a module intended to mirror TCs and TEs why is there also an increase to total range included on these modules. You do know that Optimal Range on TCs and TEs functions differently than increased missile range mods right....right?

So when you say this Rise:
CCP Rise wrote:
There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).


Im not quite sure what the **** you are talking about. You have values being compared that have nothing to do with application. It makes ZERO sense.

Missile mods OP guys you get 50% the value of application than you would from a TC, but you get like 100% more range!.

Dear Seagull.
Buff your balance team.
Thanks.
Me.


Missile Velocity and Flight Time have EVERYTHING to do with damage application.

All the gun-type weapons in the game have effectively instantaneous round-time-to-target (that is to say, the relative acceleration of your bullet is infinite, as is your velocity, because the distance between your ship and the target is covered more-or-less right away). Missiles do not do this! Missiles have to FLY to the target, which takes time. A sufficiently fast target CANNOT be hit by certain missiles/fits, whether because the missile simply can't fly fast enough, or because the target moves so far during the missile's flight time that it runs out of fuel before impact.

So your ability to apply damage to a target with missiles hinges 100% on your ability to even HIT them in the first place.

For instance, a Cerb firing RLMs gives its ordnance, without Guidance mods (IE Pre-Aegis), 11.25 seconds of flight time and 8437 m/s velocity, with high skills. This results in a theoretical range of 94.9km (nominally a bit less than that due to missile acceleration factor). If the Cerb pilot fires on a kiting interceptor which is initially at, say, 30km and is traveling 7,000m/s (very doable without OH), the Cerb WILL NOT HIT the interceptor (unless, for some reason, it stops or doubles back on its previous vector before the missile burns too much of its fuel). The inty could be flying with 0 transveral - the Cerb will still miss where a gun would not.

So, yes, velocity and flight time are very, very important to damage application for missiles, perhaps more so than explosion velocity and explosion radius.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2015-07-11 11:28:21 UTC
Will there be a faction variant to the Missile guidance modules or will the current modules be nerfed so that faction variants can exist?
(Just curious because i'm trying to get my bomber to fire torpedoes up to 250km)
Lady Nadra
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2015-07-11 16:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Nadra
Tried out the new guidance computer modules on my tengu. Very disappointed.

With 3 rigors the explo radius of my ham rage missiles is 103m now which is.. worse then it used to be at iirc 87m! Thanks for the stacking penalty.

And.. the new guidance computer modules stack against the rigors for a double nerf right off the bat! With 3 rigors + 3 tech two application scripted guidance computers the explo radius is now at.. wait for it.. 97m !

I can't even get back to the old explosion radius I used to have, with the new modules!

The only nice part about it is you can get more range, but what I was really looking forward to was being able to actually apply the damage. Ugh

As is there is no use for these over a target painter, for application purposes.

Suggestion: Why not remove the stacking penalty between the rigs and the new mods so they can actually fulfill their intended purpose? If that is too much just increase the stacking penalty for each additional guidance computer/enhancer up a few % or something. Anything. Missiles have waited too long for this to be the last balance pass on them for the next 5 years. What?
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#49 - 2015-07-11 20:17:55 UTC
Just sayin thanks for the 5%. I do a lot of solo PVE with heavies. The way heavy missiles were, I couldn't kill a second BS rat, without doing a reload to finish him. Then he would regen and what should have taken 1 more volley suddenly turns into reload time + 5 more volleys.
For my game, this makes it a lot more reasonable.

As for the old "can I bring my Drake?" fleets. Those were EVEs glory days, and I think bringing back battlecruisers is a + for the game overall.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#50 - 2015-07-12 12:38:54 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
As for the old "can I bring my Drake?" fleets. Those were EVEs glory shittiest days, and I think bringing back battlecruisers is a + - for the game overall.

Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-07-13 00:49:29 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Sorrow Mist wrote:
So with the great missile love of Aegis promised in the devblogs, has anybody came up with fits that actually IMPROVED missile damage application without sacrificing mid/low slots, ehp ... etc compared to fits prior to the patch?

I only do boring PVE, and I don't feel much love atm, a lot more than often, I can't even pop non-elite cruisers or BCs in a single cruise volley in my 3 pwnage tp Golem, spending way more time in missions and can't say it's making the boring missions anymore enjoyable (in fact, it's much more boring now).

Is this a troll or the devs simply don't use missiles? I don't really need a PVE cruise missile to hit rats at 250km away....but I'd hope it'd do some damage to them at 25km away than just scratch them every 10s ish....


Use 3 TPs and a MGC II w/Precision script (or Compact should work as well.) It's a small improvement over a 4 TP pre-Aegis Golem.

Although, even though I haven't re-run the numbers, a 4 TP setup + 5% damage implant pre-Aegis Golem should be fine.


Thats just rediculous.
Vailen Sere
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2015-07-13 00:58:02 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Also, im not sure what math you are using. But Missile Velocity and Missile Flight Time have no impact on the missile damage application formula. For a module intended to mirror TCs and TEs why is there also an increase to total range included on these modules. You do know that Optimal Range on TCs and TEs functions differently than increased missile range mods right....right?

So when you say this Rise:
CCP Rise wrote:
There's a few problems with the numbers proposed originally but at the end of the day it would have meant Missile Guidance Modules were substantially stronger than their tracking counterparts (around 50% stronger for the enhancer and around 33% stronger for the computer).


Im not quite sure what the **** you are talking about. You have values being compared that have nothing to do with application. It makes ZERO sense.

Missile mods OP guys you get 50% the value of application than you would from a TC, but you get like 100% more range!.

Dear Seagull.
Buff your balance team.
Thanks.
Me.


That is because we need to be that far away and have them burning directly at us forever to stand a chance.
Tiberius Heth
Doomheim
#53 - 2015-07-13 13:05:44 UTC
Well, the old "be careful what you wish for" applies. For long people have asked for missile TC and TE to be "on par because it's not fair we don't have them", not realising that introducing them would of course cause trouble.

What we now have is the following:

- people who never used rigor/flare rigs might decide to use a mid/low slot for the guidance stuff and see an increase in performance, at the cost of a slot. Sounds fair to me.

- people who already used rigor/flare now run into the stacking problem meaning that with those same rigs and helped by one Guidance Comp with precision script they're WORSE off than before the changes while wasting a slot. That makes no sense whatsoever.


I understand that in order to not get silly values you had to start applying a stacking penalty to those stats, I understand that you can't just give an all round buff. But this is just dumb as hell, this is a missile nerf. So much so that even with the 5% damage buff HML got they actually perform LESS good while wasting an extra mid slot.
Jarvae Simalia
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2015-07-14 12:19:23 UTC
well looks like all my missile ships can be stuck to one side for if i decide i want to do missions again. Was already bad enough that most of the time you got ignored for incursions it also appears that someone in ccp wants to make PvP less viable.

So on that point i think i better start upping my gunnery skills now and maybe in 6 months or so i might just get a chance at incursions and decent PvP (unless they change everything again before then).
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-07-14 12:30:17 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Many of us are still waiting for rise to HTFU and post some numbers. I'm extremely curious as to what fit scared the balance team into gutting the missile balance package before it was even available to test by players... and since you did gut the mods before you even fully gave us a preview of them only the balance team knows how well or poorly they would have done pre nerf.


Though that said this is the first time in CCP history that a new item has been both released AND nerfed before players ever fit them.


Maybe it looked something like this?

[Cerberus, Sniper]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Ionic Field Projector II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

240km/180km/120km Faction/Fury/Precision missile range.


You do realize that any sniper rail fit or sniper drone fit will eat this fit for breakfast right? You do realize you posted a fit with exactly Zero tank right? You also realize that the flight time for those missiles makes it fundamentally impossible to actually do any damage whatsoever right?

This is why I keep stressing why it is so unusual and frankly disturbing that we never were allowed to test these mods in the test server in a functional fashion. Your paper warrioring dies in 5 seconds under actual gameplay conditions.

CCP has shown its total lack of trust in its players and its decision to trust literally a handful of people rather than facts is probably the most disturbing thing I've seen in the last several years. It's not like we, the players, have a vested interest in the survival and playability of the game after all..
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2015-07-18 19:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Poranius Fisc
Nafensoriel wrote:
Syri Taneka wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Many of us are still waiting for rise to HTFU and post some numbers. I'm extremely curious as to what fit scared the balance team into gutting the missile balance package before it was even available to test by players... and since you did gut the mods before you even fully gave us a preview of them only the balance team knows how well or poorly they would have done pre nerf.


Though that said this is the first time in CCP history that a new item has been both released AND nerfed before players ever fit them.


Maybe it looked something like this?

[Cerberus, Sniper]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Ionic Field Projector II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

240km/180km/120km Faction/Fury/Precision missile range.


You do realize that any sniper rail fit or sniper drone fit will eat this fit for breakfast right? You do realize you posted a fit with exactly Zero tank right? You also realize that the flight time for those missiles makes it fundamentally impossible to actually do any damage whatsoever right?

This is why I keep stressing why it is so unusual and frankly disturbing that we never were allowed to test these mods in the test server in a functional fashion. Your paper warrioring dies in 5 seconds under actual gameplay conditions.

CCP has shown its total lack of trust in its players and its decision to trust literally a handful of people rather than facts is probably the most disturbing thing I've seen in the last several years. It's not like we, the players, have a vested interest in the survival and playability of the game after all..


Notice the last Dev post too? I think since its broken, they are required to try something every so often. It would be nice at least to say "we are compiling data on the live server and will go from there", but we can't even get that.
Falos Kumamato
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-07-27 20:13:03 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Was actually going through my ship fits last night to see what ships I might actually use these missile modules on and noticed a funny thing. Pretty much every ship I could actually use one on without totally gimping the DPS or EHP of the fit turned out to be non-caldari. Who of course just happen to be the primary missile users. Maybe that has something to do with slot layout balancing.... Roll Aegis is full of win.


Actually I've dumped any calari ship training from my main's plan and am swapping to amarr / minmatar. Better options across the board that don't leave me kinetic damage locked.
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