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Making mining fleets more interactive

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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#61 - 2015-07-11 05:55:58 UTC
Ok OP, i was going to give a blithering reply but decided against that.
Instead of asking you what qualifies your opinion on mining let me ask this instead.....

What is the difference in man hours production of a single skiff mining Arkonor, and a single Skiff mining Dense Veldspar and Rich Plagioclase? For extra credit dont forget to answer: Isk value in proportion to being able to cover the fact of those 3 rocks only Arkonor has megacyte.

How big of a Fleet does it take to strip a 700,000 m3 belt using just skiffs in 1 hour, and what point in that equation should you use a Freighter/Orca combination?

How many man hours does it take to in just highsec mineral production to produce a Freighter, or even a Carrier.

In what relation does mining have with actual industry?

What is the difference between man hours and actual hours mining? and why is that important?

Answer these correctly or at least better than average semi-correctly and I might think you are qualified or semi-qualified for this type of discussion.

Now, a general answer for things I have read here.
Mining is not boring per se, it depends on the perspective but mining should never be considered a true ISK income career. Unless of course your working for my Corp on the side. We can generally pay better than places like Jita for a miner's efforts because of the ore prices falling. That again is because my corp is an industry corp not a mining corp.
Yet at times we do fleet up and mine occasionally.

For those that maintain mining alt groups....splitting rocks will make mining unbearable as it will be a very undesirable click fest since a person that mines even with 3 ships(forget about hulks here) is constantly having to maintain their lasers as well dumping into an orca(jetcanning is stupid).

As for the mining crystals....they already react that way. 3456m3 per cycle with pyroxer crystal might be just a tad over 1300 m3 using it on scordite.
Mining currently is fine right now as is, yes it could use some love....but these ideas are horrible, go mining, get into industry then make an informed posting.
Survey Scanners work, they report the amount of ore and type in a belt.
Mining boosts and even implants for the job work....mining can be done in highly efficient manners already.
Trick for someone that really wants to make a career in mining which leads to doing True Industry is the following:
They must be willing to mission.
They must be willing to gank someone.
They must be willing to collect intel, and spy on others.
They must be willing to follow market trends.
They must be willing to be aware of and study ingame meta-politics.
They must be willing to train up a wardec alt.
They must be willing to Research Prints.
They must be willing to do effective and efficient PI.
AND above all....they must be willing to do all the above every day they log in....and that requires attention at the Keyboard. Not AFK or semi-afk. And all this can be done even at 2-3 hrs casual play daily, if part of a corp.

Industry is more intensive than most realize, and a mining career should be short lived if your not going to get into being Indy.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#62 - 2015-07-11 11:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Max Deveron wrote:

Trick for someone that really wants to make a career in mining which leads to doing True Industry is the following:
They must be willing to mission.
They must be willing to gank someone.
They must be willing to collect intel, and spy on others.
They must be willing to follow market trends.
They must be willing to be aware of and study ingame meta-politics.
They must be willing to train up a wardec alt.
They must be willing to Research Prints.
They must be willing to do effective and efficient PI.
AND above all....they must be willing to do all the above every day they log in....and that requires attention at the Keyboard. Not AFK or semi-afk. And all this can be done even at 2-3 hrs casual play daily, if part of a corp.

Industry is more intensive than most realize, and a mining career should be short lived if your not going to get into being Indy.


For the most part I understand but missions and gank ? You mean missionning for high standing to refine and avoid taxes at station ? and ganking annoying multi boxer that could suck like vaccum all the ore ?

The real thing that make mining not "perfect" to me is that there is no end-game to it, no big mining ship or skill (player and sp) intensive way to do it, it seems stuck to cruiser/battlecruiser size (except orca, rorqual is dead for now), like if missioning would go up to L3. I know moon mining is going to be redone in some ways,I really hope this will add something to the mining career.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#63 - 2015-07-11 12:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
Kiddoomer wrote:


For the most part I understand but missions and gank ? You mean missionning for high standing to refine and avoid taxes at station ? and ganking annoying multi boxer that could suck like vaccum all the ore ?

The real thing that make mining not "perfect" to me is that there is no end-game to it, no big mining ship or skill (player and sp) intensive way to do it, it seems stuck to cruiser/battlecruiser size (except orca, rorqual is dead for now), like if missioning would go up to L3. I know moon mining is going to be redone in some ways,I really hope this will add something to the mining career.


Nope, that annoying miner that keeps lasing the rocks already tapped by you or your corp mates needs to be gotten rid of, the occasional bot or true afk'r needs to be gotten rid of, and the once in a blue moon corp that may seem to be trying to compete with you......well needs to be gotten rid of.

Missioning? again wrong, Indy dont mission for ISK. its just an added incentive. Same for explorations, Indy has way more important motivation for doing them.

As to end game....well my friend the end game is in the meta-politics and Indy....not mining in itself. Its deeper than that. maybe because in EvE there is no End game stuff per se.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#64 - 2015-07-11 16:54:07 UTC
whilst I greatly support the ideal of making mining both more interesting, and more engageing for the top cover/assisters, I feel that CCP isn't so much insterested as revamping old content, as throwing old content out the window and starting again - see fozzie-sov

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2015-07-11 21:10:59 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:

How big of a Fleet does it take to strip a 700,000 m3 belt using just skiffs in 1 hour, and what point in that equation should you use a Freighter/Orca combination?


If I did my homework correctly, a Skiff with fleet boosts mines about 2000 m3 per minute. That would make 350 man-minutes of mining. Some division puts the number at six people.

Quote:

How many man hours does it take to in just highsec mineral production to produce a Freighter, or even a Carrier.


More than most people know.

Quote:

In what relation does mining have with actual industry?


Mining supplies most of the materials that industry consumes.

Quote:

What is the difference between man hours and actual hours mining? and why is that important?


A man hour is the amount of work one man can get done in one hour. If you have ten man hours of work, one man can get it done in ten hours, ten men can get it done in an hour. This is why teamwork is so important.
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-07-11 21:46:04 UTC

Quote:

For those that maintain mining alt groups....splitting rocks will make mining unbearable as it will be a very undesirable click fest since a person that mines even with 3 ships(forget about hulks here) is constantly having to maintain their lasers as well dumping into an orca(jetcanning is stupid).


So, the problem is that multi-boxed mining would get nerfed? I don't consider that a real problem.

Quote:

As for the mining crystals....they already react that way. 3456m3 per cycle with pyroxer crystal might be just a tad over 1300 m3 using it on scordite.
Mining currently is fine right now as is, yes it could use some love....but these ideas are horrible, go mining, get into industry then make an informed posting.
Survey Scanners work, they report the amount of ore and type in a belt.
Mining boosts and even implants for the job work....mining can be done in highly efficient manners already.


I think what you don't like is that this would add inefficiencies to mining that are then overcome by thinking. It would complicate the mining system, but that is because the mining system is currently too simple. There's no way to add real depth without making things more complicated, more inefficient.

Quote:

Industry is more intensive than most realize, and a mining career should be short lived if your not going to get into being Indy.


Oh yeah. I'm not worried about Industry. Moving resources around, managing production runs, and watching the market already make that spreadsheet-fest engaging for those who want to get into it.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#67 - 2015-07-13 04:46:30 UTC
Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:


If I did my homework correctly, a Skiff with fleet boosts mines about 2000 m3 per minute. That would make 350 man-minutes of mining. Some division puts the number at six people.

correct, 5 skiffs and 1 Orca

Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:


More than most people know.

incorrect, Freighter = 105 Carrier = 45 -25pts

Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

Mining supplies most of the materials that industry consumes.

Incorrect, Minerals are but 20% that Industry transforms into Corp/Alliance/Coalition power. Mining does not directly and there fore can not add to that power. -25pts

Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

A man hour is the amount of work one man can get done in one hour. If you have ten man hours of work, one man can get it done in ten hours, ten men can get it done in an hour. This is why teamwork is so important.

partial credit for the basic equation.
However, because of the nature of the game....1 person = 14 man hours in as little as 2 weeks of training. Teamwork has nothing to do with it. Security does however, and Efficiency even more so.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#68 - 2015-07-13 05:14:24 UTC
Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

[quote]

So, the problem is that multi-boxed mining would get nerfed? I don't consider that a real problem.

No the problem is that you would add to the way Multi-boxing is used, real industry and mining fleets do not use much in the way of combat ships. They can replace what they lose. Its a matter of security, people in the mindset of indy just dont want combat ships hanging around. And fleet leaders or the avg multiboxer will just do the added work your proposing. Awoxxing isnt a problem, ganking isnt a problem, but real spies and infiltration is, especially in highsec. So your adding something that will not really promote more fleets members or job roles.....just jobs and more needless work. Multi-boxers will still out compete those that do not and your back to square 1. Only now every miner will complain about your new system.

Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

I think what you don't like is that this would add inefficiencies to mining that are then overcome by thinking. It would complicate the mining system, but that is because the mining system is currently too simple. There's no way to add real depth without making things more complicated, more inefficient.

Its not the mining system I am worried about at the end of it all. And besides mining should be simplistic in nature, its the Grade School level to industry...you want to add problems to how mining is done...question is why? it will not help anything at all, it will simply compound things when you get to market levels and how large alliances are able to operate.

Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

Oh yeah. I'm not worried about Industry. Moving resources around, managing production runs, and watching the market already make that spreadsheet-fest engaging for those who want to get into it.

And that is because your a combat pilot, just a combat pilot....you have no idea what it takes to run a corp or an Alliance, and probably not much appreciation either...in nullsec where do you think your SRP comes from? whether a fitted ship or in the form of ISK because of the efforts of others, that for all intents and purposes are higher than you on the command chain one way or another. Also, sigh I do not use a single spreadsheet, I can open market, activate in game calulator if need be, look at a number of things and beat anybody live in my TS that does use a spreadsheet, whom a lot of times but not all are even wrong in their calcs. thats because that though some use them, those that absolutely rely on them dont keep tabs on the meta-politics.

btw you scored a 37.5 out of a hundred on the test i gave you. I think you should get into mining and move into basic industry as you are not even semi-qualified for this discussion. that or go back to ratting your anoms and let the ones knowing what is what for mining/industry/orginzational logistics handle the particulars. If you keep this frame of mind in that last quote....i give you a month before you quit doing it because it is too difficult for its simplistic nature.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#69 - 2015-07-13 05:55:23 UTC
Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

How to run a mining fleet:
Get an Orca or Rorqual to run fleet boosts.
Get a couple haulers.
Get a bunch of mining ships.
Label your jet cans for the haulers.
Lazer space rocks.

I have yet to hear anything that does not convince me that the above is the limit to the activity's complexity.



How to run a PvP fleet:
Get a booster / Super to run fleet boosts
Get a couple of tacklers or put down bubbles
Get a couple of Deeps
Get a bunch of pew pew ships to drop sentries
Tag your targets as they come through gates while holding onto the batphone
Lazer space boats or light the cyno to lazer space boats.

Seems allot like mining to me....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-07-13 19:43:38 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:

So your adding something that will not really promote more fleets members or job roles.....just jobs and more needless work. Multi-boxers will still out compete those that do not and your back to square 1. Only now every miner will complain about your new system.


You should go back through the thread. We actually did discuss what sort of fleet roles this could add and it seems like at least two new roles open up, along with the possibility of an entirely new style of solo mining.

Quote:

Its not the mining system I am worried about at the end of it all. And besides mining should be simplistic in nature, its the Grade School level to industry...you want to add problems to how mining is done...question is why? it will not help anything at all, it will simply compound things when you get to market levels and how large alliances are able to operate.


You know what, I think your philosophy about mining is a terrible way to view this. Grade-school level of industry? Really? I think the idea that miners need to progress 'onward' to industry is flawed. Spreadsheet-fu is not for everyone.

Quote:

And that is because your a combat pilot, just a combat pilot....you have no idea what it takes to run a corp or an Alliance, and probably not much appreciation either...in nullsec where do you think your SRP comes from? whether a fitted ship or in the form of ISK because of the efforts of others, that for all intents and purposes are higher than you on the command chain one way or another. Also, sigh I do not use a single spreadsheet, I can open market, activate in game calulator if need be, look at a number of things and beat anybody live in my TS that does use a spreadsheet, whom a lot of times but not all are even wrong in their calcs. thats because that though some use them, those that absolutely rely on them dont keep tabs on the meta-politics.


Might want to check your assumptions - I'm not really a combat pilot. I don't even have all the skills on the alliance's basic skill plan. I have a huge chunk of my skill points in PI and Exploration.

Of course I have no idea what it takes to run a corp or alliance. Just the things I know about are staggering. Sorting personality conflicts between dozens of people, finding ways to pay for everything, getting all the POSes fueled on time, getting people to put up ship contracts for the doctrine fits, stocking markets, operating buyback programs, vetting new members, recruiting new members, kicking problem members, organizing defense of what you have, dealing with wardecs, awoxers, and griefers, expanding infrastructure, and somehow trying to still have time to play Eve and have fun. Still, as they say, what does all that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Mining is not Industry Lite. Mining is mining. It is the extraction of raw materials from digital space rocks. In it's current form, it is easily botted, multi-boxed, afk'd, or otherwise. There are few possible fleet roles, no secondary groups to appeal to (logi pilots and F1 jockeys have some overlap, but different focus), and no anchor points for new development.

Asuka Solo wrote:

How to run a PvP fleet:
Get a booster / Super to run fleet boosts
Get a couple of tacklers or put down bubbles
Get a couple of Deeps
Get a bunch of pew pew ships to drop sentries
Tag your targets as they come through gates while holding onto the batphone
Lazer space boats or light the cyno to lazer space boats.

Seems allot like mining to me....


You forgot bringing logi, ewar, and scouts. You also forgot the problem of managing where the logi are in relation to your pvp ships, managing optimal range, calling primaries, making decisions about when to stay on grid and when to bail, route planning, and all the other things that FCs need to do.

Space rocks don't shoot back. If you want to convince me that there is more to a current mining fleet than "haulers haul, everyone else lasers asteroids", please fill me in on what I am missing that requires coordination. Mocking PvP, while it could be funny, doesn't change the nature of a mining fleet.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#71 - 2015-07-13 20:21:33 UTC
So it is believed that if a fleet is running a bunch of miners, a bunch of haulers, frigs, notics/dessy and links would earn the same as today or more?

If its more wouldn't it be more isk wise to not bother with most that aren't running lasers to just not be there and mine all the rocks?


This sounds like a lot of extra work and attention required when I really only mine cause I'm at my pc, on comms, and have enough screen real estate to run a couple eve clients with ease. Which is how most of eve can be played, even pvp ( 30 -60 seconds of action where attention is 100% required. rest of time is just a click-click every now and then to follow the FC)
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#72 - 2015-07-13 20:23:49 UTC
Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:


Asuka Solo wrote:

How to run a PvP fleet:
Get a booster / Super to run fleet boosts
Get a couple of tacklers or put down bubbles
Get a couple of Deeps
Get a bunch of pew pew ships to drop sentries
Tag your targets as they come through gates while holding onto the batphone
Lazer space boats or light the cyno to lazer space boats.

Seems allot like mining to me....


You forgot bringing logi, ewar, and scouts. You also forgot the problem of managing where the logi are in relation to your pvp ships, managing optimal range, calling primaries, making decisions about when to stay on grid and when to bail, route planning, and all the other things that FCs need to do.

Space rocks don't shoot back. If you want to convince me that there is more to a current mining fleet than "haulers haul, everyone else lasers asteroids", please fill me in on what I am missing that requires coordination. Mocking PvP, while it could be funny, doesn't change the nature of a mining fleet.



you don't need logi. and most of those things are the FC's concern not the F1 monkeys. you can basically give 5% attention when not in a serious fight and still do everything right.
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-07-14 00:10:40 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
So it is believed that if a fleet is running a bunch of miners, a bunch of haulers, frigs, noctis/dessy and links would earn the same as today or more?


I'd have to say more. I'd prefer not to kick the solo miners in the teeth too hard.

Quote:

If its more wouldn't it be more isk wise to not bother with most that aren't running lasers to just not be there and mine all the rocks?


Without someone scouting asteroids (mining frigate, frigate, or even interceptor), your miners waste time either mining rocks that don't actually contain much ore or wasting time moving around looking for the better rocks. Module balance on the survey scanner would be necessary to get this one right. There are pressures that could be used to get the role right: The fitting requirements could be made hard to fit on a mining barge next to the other "necessary" equipment but the Venture could have a role bonus for fitting survey scanners. Alternatively, the minimum distance to the rock needed to get a "perfect" estimate of the ore could be set at such a range that it would require lots of slow boating around by a mining barge.

The salvage boat would only be needed if you are mining relatively unstable asteroids. On fairly stable fields, they won't see enough fractures to cause much trouble, though they might bring a salvage boat to bring the rocks to the miners instead of having the miners go to the rocks. However, if you have asteroids constantly breaking and drifting away, miners will lose time chasing down the chunks that break off or lose profit ignoring smaller chunks.

If "prospecting" minerals are a thing, lacking a ship equipped for it would lose those additional materials. This idea is meant to be combined with the first role - scouting asteroids - but isn't fully necessary.

Quote:

This sounds like a lot of extra work and attention required when I really only mine cause I'm at my pc, on comms, and have enough screen real estate to run a couple eve clients with ease. Which is how most of eve can be played, even pvp ( 30 -60 seconds of action where attention is 100% required. rest of time is just a click-click every now and then to follow the FC)


It is extra work and attention required and would certainly hurt your ability to multi-box miners. Is that, however, actually a bad thing?

Lady Rift wrote:

you don't need logi. and most of those things are the FC's concern not the F1 monkeys. you can basically give 5% attention when not in a serious fight and still do everything right.


Once the number of players in a given fleet is above a certain number, any protracted fight between two fleets is going to be won by the fleet with the better logi.

Also, we are talking about running a mining fleet as opposed to running a pvp fleet. We aren't comparing the F1 monkeys to the space cows, we're talking about the brains behind the whole operation. The things the FC is doing are relevant.
Sorra Hibra
Doomheim
#74 - 2015-07-14 04:51:05 UTC
It takes a special kind of insanity to enjoy mining, and no matter how many fancy bells and whistles you attach to it you will not attract more people to it once the "new" wears off. Instead of changing the mechanics to chase off those special few, why not actually do something they ask for?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-07-14 09:41:09 UTC
Sorra Hibra wrote:
It takes a special kind of insanity to enjoy mining, and no matter how many fancy bells and whistles you attach to it you will not attract more people to it once the "new" wears off. Instead of changing the mechanics to chase off those special few, why not actually do something they ask for?


You'll probably find that the miners have much the same view of PvP, sitting in a blob pushing F1 on command in 10% TiDi for instance. Each to their own I say.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#76 - 2015-07-14 09:51:11 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Sorra Hibra wrote:
It takes a special kind of insanity to enjoy mining, and no matter how many fancy bells and whistles you attach to it you will not attract more people to it once the "new" wears off. Instead of changing the mechanics to chase off those special few, why not actually do something they ask for?


You'll probably find that the miners have much the same view of PvP, sitting in a blob pushing F1 on command in 10% TiDi for instance. Each to their own I say.


I would say you are both right.

Eve is a big game. What appeals to one, may not appeal to another. We should always be careful to ensure that Eve remains big and has room for plenty of different personalities and lifestyles.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#77 - 2015-07-14 12:09:51 UTC
Wanted to point out that reimaging mining to be more active is good for CCPs plan as they want people to be more active (as far as I know).

So all ideas and ways to hurt (harsh word) multiboxing in favour of single instance are basically good. You see all the changes coming to make f1 monkeys more active on pvp side.


As stated elsewhere I don't get your style of blaming people that they "are not allowed to speak about mining" as they are not miners. I get that idea, but if you feel that way, just ignore this thread. Add constructive feedback to get this forward instead of just trolling or hating. If some proposed idea doesn't feel right, think how it could be and say that. Maybe some day we actually have proposal that could make things better for everyone (except those who multibox for the isk).


Be positive!
Sorra Hibra
Doomheim
#78 - 2015-07-14 13:17:11 UTC
Raphendyr Nardieu wrote:

As stated elsewhere I don't get your style of blaming people that they "are not allowed to speak about mining" as they are not miners. I get that idea, but if you feel that way, just ignore this thread. Add constructive feedback to get this forward instead of just trolling or hating. If some proposed idea doesn't feel right, think how it could be and say that. Maybe some day we actually have proposal that could make things better for everyone (except those who multibox for the isk).


Be positive!


This would be like me, a pilot whom has shot at maybe a dozen player ships in my career, saying that PVP is not for me but here is how CCP should change it to be more appealing to me. You would see page after page of responses telling me to quit EVE and go back to WoW.
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#79 - 2015-07-14 14:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Raphendyr Nardieu
Sorra Hibra wrote:

This would be like me, a pilot whom has shot at maybe a dozen player ships in my career, saying that PVP is not for me but here is how CCP should change it to be more appealing to me. You would see page after page of responses telling me to quit EVE and go back to WoW.


Yes. And the blaming pointless. It doesn't server any purpose. People have ideas. Some are good and some are awful. Some make some one else to thing from different perspective and make the really good idea. So creating a lot of ideas is prerequisite to fiend the good ones.

This saying who someones idea is bad is like being racist. Effectively we have created class system where none have anything to say about the other classes business. Also pvp class is way better than other classes combined...

If someone post a bad or un polished idea, just ignore it, unless you have actually something to say about it that might make new ideas or make the proposed idea better. CCP is not going to spend development time for random ideas presented by random people. There is no point of just implementing bad ideas. Those changes done by CCP deemed bad are not random ideas from this forum. They have ccp born or presented by CSM or other trusted party. SO you don't have to worry that bad idea presented here will be implemented and then you need to hate it.


So yes. I would like to see your pvp idea, what ever it is.


edit: If you add comment to post like "-1 bad idea" you are effectively bumping that post up to the front page, so by ignoring the post, it will be forgotten.
Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
Hole Control
#80 - 2015-07-14 15:15:47 UTC
Why I always forget to check the forum rules... Maybe others do too...

CCP Falcon wrote:

ADDITIONAL RULES FOR THIS FORUM SECTION


  • This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don't like it, think about why.
  • Constructive feedback is good.
  • Posting "That's an awful idea," is not constructive.

...


From Announcement:Features & Ideas Discussion Resources