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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Sojourn: Void

Author
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#141 - 2015-07-03 15:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Nine: Crime

I'm officially a criminal, now.

Technically, I was one even when I was flying with SFRIM. My security status hasn't been north of 0.0 in the few months I can remember. But, well ... that was sort of a legacy my former self left me. And, also, it was closer to 0.0 than to -5.0, which it's now slipped south of.

The process to branding pilots this way is puzzling. It's not that we're a threat to conventional shipping or facilities, or even that we destroy ships with the crew populations of small towns. The thing that really seems to upset the DED is targeting our fellow capsuleers, who are about the only people involved who are nearly immune to being killed in this way.

Kill a freighter full of people and steal its cargo, and the DED lightly slaps your wrist. Inconvenience an infomorph, and the DED comes down hard.

Why?

... well ...

Someone suggested to me last night that capsuleers are mostly weapons of mass destruction meant precisely to take on conventional fleets, as a method of reducing cost and risk for the empires. That's probably true (if horrible), but it means that targeting each other is maybe a subversion of that role.

That role would seem a little more palatable in our earlier days, before the power imbalance became so extreme. But I guess how palatable it is doesn't change whether that's what is expected of us.

Maybe we're supposed to be executioners on a massive scale.

But, in that case, why tolerate those of us who do otherwise? ... And we are tolerated. As much as local law enforcement in every highsec system I pass feels the need to point at me and scream, "criminal!" I don't see anyone coming to revoke my license, confiscate my inventory, and arrest me for crimes against whoever.

It's not punishment they're meting out. It's more like a restriction on my movements to protect the potential victims (again: other capsuleers, not baseliners) who form the core of the capsuleer economic system. Nullsec alliances and capsuleers living in Anoikis can defend themselves, but high-security space continues to provide an essential hub of basic, utilitarian manufacture and trade.

So, maybe the targeting of another "empyrean" demonstrates that as tools go, I'm a dangerous one and need to be kept away from my more fragile colleagues so that they can get on with building the machinery of war without having to worry about me turning it on them.

But, of course, capsuleers do that anyway. There are places in highsec it's deeply dangerous to fly a freighter through.

Maybe it's that inconveniencing another infomorph is the closest crime we have to murder? I mean, this is a legal regime in which direct theft won't lower your security status and defrauding your fellows isn't even a crime, so it kind of lines up.

It's not the value at stake; the hardware in a capsuleer's head can be worth billions, or, much more commonly, nothing. Often they're getting a free trip home and a fresh change of clothes while we're getting a heavy hit to our security status. So why?

... maybe it's the emotive content of the thing?

In targeting another capsuleer directly, I'm pretty fundamentally rejecting the idea that professional courtesy is due-- that we're playing a sort of gentlemanly sport, where crew die by the thousands but nobody goes after the commander. Crew are plentiful and easily replaced, but I'm intentionally targeting a peer. And that's not playing nice, even if the commander will almost certainly survive.

If that's the way of it ... I'd be really proud to be someone like that, someone who reminds emypreans of the rules everyone else has to play by.

Memento mori. A reminder of death.

... Or maybe it's something else entirely. Something to think about, I guess.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#142 - 2015-07-03 15:56:27 UTC
A thought, if I may, regarding your most recent entry.

I will be as succinct as I can be.

I believe the reason we receive penalties for attacking other capsuleers in the way we do is because of the magnitude of power we wield.

By modifying our security standings and making us legal targets to other capsuleers, CONCORD and the empires are leaving our punishment up to our peers - those most suited to be the enforcers of justice against us. While CONCORD has the weapons and tools at its disposal to shut down a capsuleer and summarily execute the crew and destroy the vessel and assets of a criminal capsuleer; the amount of oversight and manpower required to do that across the cluster preemptively would be incalculably taxing.

What better way to play upon our strengths (and vices) than to implement a system of social justice in which our peers become instruments of justice by being rewarded for exacting the punishment for our repeated crimes against us in CONCORD and the empires' stead? Instead of investing more time, resources and (yes, lives) into prosecuting justice against criminal capsuleers, it is infinitely more feasible (and practical) to simply paint a target on our hulls and let other capsuleers do the work for them.

Beyond that, it's demonstrably the policy of CONCORD (and even the empires) to regard the lives of the crews on capsuleer ships as irrelevant. I suspect it is because they are largely there by choice (or desperation) and are complicit with the actions of the capsuleer thus becoming accomplices to whatever action is taken.

Is it morally or ethically right? I think arguments could be made either way; I'm personally on the side of "no," but I also understand I'm in no position to tell CONCORD a better system until I've worked one out myself.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#143 - 2015-07-03 16:00:41 UTC
I think I came myself to very similar conclusions... I am glad to see that someone sees it the same way.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#144 - 2015-07-03 16:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Liam Antolliere wrote:
By modifying our security standings and making us legal targets to other capsuleers, CONCORD and the empires are leaving our punishment up to our peers - those most suited to be the enforcers of justice against us. While CONCORD has the weapons and tools at its disposal to shut down a capsuleer and summarily execute the crew and destroy the vessel and assets of a criminal capsuleer; the amount of oversight and manpower required to do that across the cluster preemptively would be incalculably taxing.

To the first thought: Only, we're not really getting punished effectively. Engagements on gates get a little more hazardous, but most red-flagged pilots are more than capable of defending themselves.

It seems more to me like flagging us as freely subject to preemptive self-defense. After all, we're clear dangers to passersby, so it's only fair to let those passersby do whatever they can or need to do to protect themselves.

To the second: I'd be kind of amazed if they didn't have a kill switch available that would make that a lot easier. Even if they don't, they could just offer our assets to our personnel as an incentive to turn on us. I don't think many of us would survive a day with that kind of mark.

They don't, so there's a reason somewhere why they don't. And also, presumably, why they let us buy our way back into their good graces with blood or ISK.

Lyn Farel wrote:
I think I came myself to very similar conclusions... I am glad to see that someone sees it the same way.

Um ... did you mean Mr. Antolliere or me, suuolo?
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#145 - 2015-07-03 16:34:30 UTC
All good counter-points, Mademoiselle Jenneth. Allow me some time to consider them and I will continue the dialogue.

Godspeed.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2015-07-03 17:31:23 UTC
And this is why the DED and CONCORD must be destroyed!


*ahem, sorry about the Kimism.


But in all seriousness, the system is very flawed at the moment, especially considering the recent actions of CONCORD and the DED. They are operating well outside their mandate.

And don't worry about your status too much. If you need to be in HiSec for a length of time, just throw a pile of ISK at the DED and you won't have any issues. I believe they uses words like "reparations." Others use "bribe." I prefer "extortion racket."

I think perhaps you're re-discovering not only the person you were, but the person you're meant to be.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#147 - 2015-07-03 17:40:47 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Lyn Farel wrote:
I think I came myself to very similar conclusions... I am glad to see that someone sees it the same way.

Um ... did you mean Mr. Antolliere or me, suuolo?


Ah uh... you... sorry.

Mr Antolliere sent his message just before me.
Jev North
Doomheim
#148 - 2015-07-03 17:46:38 UTC
Strangling baby capsuleers in the crib would, in fact, be rude and pointless.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Anyanka Funk
Doomheim
#149 - 2015-07-03 17:55:58 UTC
Jev North wrote:
Strangling baby capsuleers in the crib would, in fact, be rude and pointless.


Yet surprisingly enjoyable.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#150 - 2015-07-09 15:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Ten: Honor

War among capsuleers is a pretty no-holds-barred affair. Typical engagements begin by ambush, and a serious battle in which all sides commit fully is the exception, not the rule. Fleets do often fan out, but it's not to seek independent duels; rather, it's to cast a wider net.

I'm sure we're not the only ones who do this.

In this context, it puzzles me how often opposing pilots seem to think that PY-RE has a job other than to beat them flat by any effective means.

"Upshipping" is a good example. If I can't beat you in a Kestrel, is there some reason why I'd keep coming back in them?

"Blobbing" is another. I think I'd want to honor an agreed formal duel, but we're trying to win a war here (or at least not to lose it). It doesn't seem to me like people who snap at a bait ship (often chosen to look like an easy kill) have very much to complain about when the hook sets and a kill squad reels them in.

Of course, it's not like we're immune. Certain tactics do annoy PY-RE pilots, as well: Griffins, for example, draw a vindictive response if they're used against small frigate squads (though the irritation falls off fast as fleet sizes grow-- Ewar seems to be perfectly fair play in a battle of ten on ten, for example). Usually, these are tactics we avoid, ourselves. I think that's less because they're unfair than because it gets hard to catch anybody if you use them, though. We've got kind of a reputation as it is.

With things working in such a way ... I wonder whether really the form of the "smack talk" we sometimes see has a moral subtext.

Sometimes I hear remarks from my fellow pilots that imply that we're not entirely comfortable with this work, even if we take pride in it. If capsuleer warfare is a contest of treachery and deceit, perhaps it is the treacherous and deceitful who excel at it.

Maybe the insults hurled at us are born out of reflections like this. "If you defeated me, it's only because you are awful people. You won, and you should be ashamed."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#151 - 2015-07-09 15:14:04 UTC
Very much so. As a Peace and Order Unit officer my job in physical confrontations was always to render the target no threat to myself, other officers or civilians in such a way as to maximise the subject's physical safety.

As an Operative in Pyre Falcon, though, my job is to put the boots to the opposing force. Any tactic that minimises loss and maximises the destruction of the enemy should at least be considered.

This does, indeed, make me uncomfortable from time to time.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#152 - 2015-07-09 16:35:05 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Very much so. As a Peace and Order Unit officer my job in physical confrontations was always to render the target no threat to myself, other officers or civilians in such a way as to maximise the subject's physical safety.

As an Operative in Pyre Falcon, though, my job is to put the boots to the opposing force. Any tactic that minimises loss and maximises the destruction of the enemy should at least be considered.

This does, indeed, make me uncomfortable from time to time.


And thus, the difference between a soldier and a cop.

I suppose I should consider myself lucky that I've been a soldier since the first day I pulled a trigger on orders then.
Matar Ronin
#153 - 2015-07-09 16:48:39 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Entry Nine: Crime

I'm officially a criminal, now.

Technically, I was one even when I was flying with SFRIM. My security status hasn't been north of 0.0 in the few months I can remember. But, well ... that was sort of a legacy my former self left me. And, also, it was closer to 0.0 than to -5.0, which it's now slipped south of.

The process to branding pilots this way is puzzling.
You target and kill capsuleer ships and murder their crews that are not enlisted on military vessels and you are branded a criminal and that puzzles you?

You pretend you are engaged in an honorable war when you are just the hired gun of any scum willing to pay for your foul deeds.

Embrace your criminality if fits you better than your weak and horribly unsuccessful past attempts at understanding history, honor, integrity, and morality. Now despite your flowery words your security status will clearly identify what you truly are, a common garden variety criminal, just another capsuleer pirate menace to law and order.

Welcome pirate on your successful Sojourn to Crime.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#154 - 2015-07-09 16:56:00 UTC
I believe you live in Null, where you can murder anyone without standings consequences, yes?

If, while going about our lawful business of securing the warzone, we encounter neutral armed ships - even within a military complex that they have no purpose for entering - we are faced with the choice between allowing them to maneuver at will and take the first shot or taking a hit to our security standing.

Concord literally punishes us for doing our job.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Jev North
Doomheim
#155 - 2015-07-09 17:24:47 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Maybe the insults hurled at us are born out of reflections like this. "If you defeated me, it's only because you are awful people. You won, and you should be ashamed."

Abuse, shame, and moralizing; often the last resort of the powerless, often the first of the ones prone to overinflated opinions of themselves. By externalizing and villifying the source of their own failure -- I was unfairly jumped by a gang, the other pilot had far more skill training and resources than me, fast and long-range ships are just plain bullshit -- the losing pilot can avoid doing the hard work of accepting failure and improving themselves -- scouting, keeping in touch with allies, acquiring resources of their own, investigating and adapting to current trends in the war zone.

One of the many paradoxes of capsuleerhood is, I feel, that in order to avoid this kind of damage to your ego, you must kill it yourself first.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#156 - 2015-07-09 17:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I believe you live in Null, where you can murder anyone without standings consequences, yes?

If, while going about our lawful business of securing the warzone, we encounter neutral armed ships - even within a military complex that they have no purpose for entering - we are faced with the choice between allowing them to maneuver at will and take the first shot or taking a hit to our security standing.

Concord literally punishes us for doing our job.

Well ... in fairness, it's not like every encounter with a neutral plays out like that, Pieter. We don't really turn up our noses at an attractive target just because it's not following us into places where its only possible reasons for being are tourism or violence.

We operate full NBSI in lowsec. That might not make us pirates, exactly, but it seems to at least blur the line a lot.

That said, for a nullsec dweller to criticize us on that basis is ... odd.

Matar Ronin wrote:
You target and kill capsuleer ships and murder their crews that are not enlisted on military vessels and you are branded a criminal and that puzzles you?

Yes, because CONCORD seems to care a lot more about the capsuleers than about the crews.

Did you actually ...

... did you even finish reading the paragraph, pilot?

Quote:
You pretend you are engaged in an honorable war when you are just the hired gun of any scum willing to pay for your foul deeds.

Embrace your criminality if fits you better than your weak and horribly unsuccessful past attempts at understanding history, honor, integrity, and morality. Now despite your flowery words your security status will clearly identify what you truly are, a common garden variety criminal, just another capsuleer pirate menace to law and order.

Welcome pirate on your successful Sojourn to Crime.

Um. Thank you? I've been enjoying it so far.

("Honorable war?" Did I say something like that somewhere?)

Jev North wrote:
One of the many paradoxes of capsuleerhood is, I feel, that in order to avoid this kind of damage to your ego, you must kill it yourself first.

Hm.... That's an important lesson, if true.

... I think mine still needs some work. Er, killing, maybe.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#157 - 2015-07-09 18:35:40 UTC
I remember the early days when the top used ships of PY-RE were mostly Condors, Kestrels and Cormorants and I was told we were terrible because we didn't, "Risk expensive assets," even though we'd still be on top in regards to both efficiency and kill:death ratios.

Now I get told we're terrible because our success is only due to using, "Expensive assets."

I just think many will reach for any pleasant excuses for their own failures, whereas others make no excuses for their own and through that act of taking responsibility for personal failure grow out of it.

Although there's no greater excuse for failure to me than flawed conceptions of honour. I don't live in some tragic-romantic delusion of ancient warrior caste codes of conduct.

Life is simpler when you do not expect mercies or niceties from others and thus have no onus to give it in return. About as simple as my personal rule that just as there is no such thing as a civilian in war, there is no such thing as a neutral in lowsec.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#158 - 2015-07-09 19:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I just think many will reach for any pleasant excuses for their own failures, whereas others make no excuses for their own and through that act of taking responsibility for personal failure grow out of it.

Although there's no greater excuse for failure to me than flawed conceptions of honour. I don't live in some tragic-romantic delusion of ancient warrior caste codes of conduct.

Life is simpler when you do not expect mercies or niceties from others and thus have no onus to give it in return. About as simple as my personal rule that just as there is no such thing as a civilian in war, there is no such thing as a neutral in lowsec.

To the first: I guess that's true.

To the second: that's funny to me, because I think we capsuleers are a warrior caste, one that's sort of loosely divided between those who build weapons and those who use them. The actual, practical ways of older castes may have some useful things to say, though I agree that looking at romaticized versions of those castes isn't useful at all.

To the third: I sort of agree. We might differ on whether there are such things as civilians in war. Beating down enemy morale seems like a good way to win. Firing them up into a vengeful rage by targeting their noncombatants seems like a good way to boost their morale while depressing your own.

Being as I think of groups of independent capsuleers as small, usually warlike, territorial tribes, though, I model it differently:

An enemy is an enemy. A neutral is an intruder.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#159 - 2015-07-09 21:02:42 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I believe you live in Null, where you can murder anyone without standings consequences, yes?

If, while going about our lawful business of securing the warzone, we encounter neutral armed ships - even within a military complex that they have no purpose for entering - we are faced with the choice between allowing them to maneuver at will and take the first shot or taking a hit to our security standing.

Concord literally punishes us for doing our job.

Well ... in fairness, it's not like every encounter with a neutral plays out like that, Pieter. We don't really turn up our noses at an attractive target just because it's not following us into places where its only possible reasons for being are tourism or violence.

We operate full NBSI in lowsec. That might not make us pirates, exactly, but it seems to at least blur the line a lot.

That said, for a nullsec dweller to criticize us on that basis is ... odd.


To be honest, the whole area is a warzone and given the preponderance of pirates that operate in the area (usually significantly more than the number of flagged combatants of both sides combined!) I don't see an NBSI policy as being excessively violent.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#160 - 2015-07-09 21:03:39 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
You target and kill capsuleer ships and murder their crews that are not enlisted on military vessels and you are branded a criminal and that puzzles you?


I do as well, ones that are in Pyre and PIE, as well as other Amarr Militia entities and those who shoot at Minmatar Militia forces. I'm not in the Minmatar Militia, I don't really see any need for a reward for what I feel is right to do. I'm shooting at those who I believe you would consider enemies as well. Would you really consider me a pirate?

Matar Ronin wrote:
You pretend you are engaged in an honorable war when you are just the hired gun of any scum willing to pay for your foul deeds.


I consider what I am doing as honorable, honorable in the eyes of my own people. Yet I'm merely supporting those who I consider my own. Its not when it comes down to it, my fight per say. Am I pursuing an honorable war?


Matar Ronin wrote:
Embrace your criminality


I do, and I'm sure she does as well. In the end its your own motives that dictate whether its a worthy cause. Her reasoning and mine are obviously very different. Yet its not my place or really anyone else's to judge or really care what hers are as opposed to their own. Criminal status always has a reason behind it, a lot of the time its due to people like myself. Think the Minmatar militia doesn't shoot neutrals who wander into their areas of operation? If they didn't I would be surprised they've had any success what so ever.