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IDEA: Dreads - becoming tres expensive. How about a mini dread?

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Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-12-31 00:21:43 UTC
Im thinking more along lowsec small-scale less 0.0 massive-scale where expensive items are not used. There are bhaalgorns and stuff and people use them.. more expensive items cant be really that awful can they?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-12-31 00:24:14 UTC
How much does a bhaalgorn cost, and how efficient is it at neuting vs, say, a domi?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-12-31 00:25:22 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Hadez411 wrote:
If some guy wants to show up in a lone dread to shoot at my customs offices or pos, I wanna hop in something with a small handful of my buddies and go take him out. Maybe I dont have 2bil to spend on a dread, or one close enough, or Im more worried about getting hot dropped and want something more escapable.


I would consider "me plus nine buddies" a "handful". 10 blaster/pulse/ac fit BS (or hell, Tier3 BC) ships will spank said dread, and still have the ability to GTFO if someone lights a cyno.

Why are you *anywhere* in empire where your dread(s) aren't in jumprange of your POS?

edit cuz i suck at quoting tonight Oops



Dunno, maybe u have a couple lowsec pos's and alot of highsec between them? Can travel highsec in some kinda battleship that resembles the new tier 3 battlecruiser.
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-12-31 00:27:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Hadez411
Lord Zim wrote:
How much does a bhaalgorn cost, and how efficient is it at neuting vs, say, a domi?


I couldnt give you the exact numbers, but tank/dps/neut vs domi is maybe not 15x better than domi, but the value in the bhaalgorn is there if you have a limited number of people. You can do a hell of alot better with 10 bhaalgorns than 10 domis.... and web 30km :D
LeHarfang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-12-31 00:28:32 UTC
Hadez411 wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Hadez411 wrote:
If some guy wants to show up in a lone dread to shoot at my customs offices or pos, I wanna hop in something with a small handful of my buddies and go take him out. Maybe I dont have 2bil to spend on a dread, or one close enough, or Im more worried about getting hot dropped and want something more escapable.


I would consider "me plus nine buddies" a "handful". 10 blaster/pulse/ac fit BS (or hell, Tier3 BC) ships will spank said dread, and still have the ability to GTFO if someone lights a cyno.

Why are you *anywhere* in empire where your dread(s) aren't in jumprange of your POS?

edit cuz i suck at quoting tonight Oops



Dunno, maybe u have a couple lowsec pos's and alot of highsec between them? Can travel highsec in some kinda battleship that resembles the new tier 3 battlecruiser.


A battleship with XL turrets? Damn....
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-31 00:29:19 UTC
I don't think you need to web cap ships...

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-12-31 00:32:54 UTC
lol, no.. you dont, but we're talking about bhaalgorns vs domis in respect to "mini-dread" vs battleships.

The point is that if you wanna spend some money to be able to do things better, or simply be able to do things, with fewer numbers, there are already ships like that (example: bhaalgorn) and so I dont think its unreasonable to have another.
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-12-31 00:33:53 UTC
On a different note... I wouldnt mind seeing a pirate faction dread ship. They have the revenant.. why did they stop there?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-12-31 00:42:13 UTC
The revenant is a **** ship. I'd be highly surprised if you ever saw one in combat.

Honestly, there are tons of valid counters to dreads, and if you're going to spend what, 1b on a bhaalgorn just to neut, then chances are you should be able to afford a dread fleet of your own. Additionally, in my view DPS higher than battleships can throw out these days should come at a price, and an inconvenience (the 5 min siege cycle), so you have to commit properly to reap the DPS reward. Fights are more than quick enough as they are, I don't think we need even more non-cap DPS.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#30 - 2011-12-31 00:45:07 UTC
The transition from cruiser to BS has been smoothed out very nicely with the edition of tier 3 ships. The same would be valuable for capitol ships. Mini-dreads, or even mini-carriers, are one option. My problem with this option is that it is less smooth than the BC transition (unless a mini-capitol used the BS skill, had extra-large guns, and was low/nullsec only).

Note that it is the transition that I feel is lacking. Make them almost as costly as a regular capitol ship for all I care.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-12-31 00:50:33 UTC
Are tier 3 BCs used as anything other than gimmick ships in fleets at this point?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Velicitia
XS Tech
#32 - 2011-12-31 00:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Hadez411 wrote:

Dunno, maybe u have a couple lowsec pos's and alot of highsec between them? Can travel highsec in some kinda battleship that resembles the new tier 3 battlecruiser.



OK, so ... assuming L4 skills, a dread can hop 10LY in one go. From Gerper (deadend LS system in Everyshore with a station), you can cover some or all of the following regions (a total of 165 systems):


  • Devoid
  • Domain
  • Essence
  • Everyshore
  • Genesis
  • Heimatar
  • Kador
  • Metropolis
  • Sinq Laison
  • The Bleak Lands
  • Verge Vendor


Getting L5 Skills adds Placid (2 systems) and The Citadel (4 systems), as well as 19 systems in the other regions, for a total of 190 possible destinations.


I suppose you *could* have sets of LS towers that are >10 LY apart, but wow, that's a lot of distance to cover for your afore-mentioned "small" corporation or alliance regardless of whether or not they have dreads.

ed - still fail at quotes...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#33 - 2011-12-31 01:08:21 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Are tier 3 BCs used as anything other than gimmick ships in fleets at this point?

Camping Jita.

Also a potential use for a mini-dread would be to bash highsec towers with them because bashing structures with just subcapitals is awful. Although that entire issue would be solved by letting us bring capitals into highsec.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-12-31 01:27:33 UTC
Actually, the hisec tower bash is an argument I could buy, provided they were still capships and paper thin and/or otherwise unwieldy to the point where they won't be abused and displace proper dreads in nullsec etc.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#35 - 2011-12-31 01:28:35 UTC
Didn't I read somewhere that they made Highsec POS invulnerable recently? or was that a mistake?

Anyway, I can't see it being a super idea to make Mini-Dreads; though a step up in the BS chain might be nice somewhere in the T2 line. I hate that all T2 BS are essentialy Mission munchers.
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#36 - 2011-12-31 01:30:45 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Didn't I read somewhere that they made Highsec POS invulnerable recently? or was that a mistake?

Anyway, I can't see it being a super idea to make Mini-Dreads; though a step up in the BS chain might be nice somewhere in the T2 line. I hate that all T2 BS are essentialy Mission munchers.


they're effectively invulnerable due to dec-shields no longer being an exploit.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#37 - 2011-12-31 01:44:14 UTC
Thanks. I'm not really familiar with the Dec shield system or how it works, or even how that would affect a POS. I think I've only ever been wardecced twice, and never had a highsec POS.

I assume that generally means that provided enough guys in Glass cannon's and a weak target corp, you could just walk in and camp the POS for a day or so and take it down under a Wardec?
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#38 - 2011-12-31 02:03:23 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Thanks. I'm not really familiar with the Dec shield system or how it works, or even how that would affect a POS. I think I've only ever been wardecced twice, and never had a highsec POS.

I assume that generally means that provided enough guys in Glass cannon's and a weak target corp, you could just walk in and camp the POS for a day or so and take it down under a Wardec?


Decshields work like this (least this is how I understand them)

1. corp A decs corp B
2. corp B applies to S.H.I.E.L.D. alliance
3. (IIRC, 24h alliance acceptance timer here)
4. Corp B gets in alliance, wardec is against the alliance now ... rather than "corp B" specifically.
5. corp B leaves alliance
6. 24h later, wardec is invalidated against corp B, because they're no longer part of the alliance.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Hadez411
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-12-31 02:07:06 UTC
Yes, highsec pos bashing is a very good idea! :)

That would really stir things up a bit.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#40 - 2011-12-31 02:29:00 UTC
So really no change to POS bashing. Corp A has more than enough time to destroy 1 or 2 POS held by Corp B if they are aware of the locations and defenses of those POS. Besides which, that seems to be an increase in difficulty to attack Corp B, given they are effectively immune within a few days.

Expensive though? I would imagine.

Highsec POS bashing is really no different in my mind than any other security bashing provided a wardec can't be brought down by such simple measures. Get a bunch of ships and shoot at it until it reinforces; come back later and finish the job.

You don't need a mini-dread for that. Dreads just DPS faster on average than a few battleships would; which means you drop the POS to reinforced faster. That's a blessing I'll grant, but 10 BS can DPS as well as a Dread as has been mentioned, and they're much more versatile.
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