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A change to c6 wormhole space

First post
Author
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#61 - 2015-07-06 21:55:09 UTC
If you can't fix the culture, you can't fix consensual PvP.

There are many ways you can change things to bring people outside of the force field. It'll certainly increases gank opportunities for others, but it won't fix risk-aversion.

Something about the w-space community just likes to talk rather than act. It's akin to solely relying on prayer to cure cancer.

If you want PvP to thrive in C6, you're going to have to work for it. Systematically install PvP corporations in place of the farmers. Take every fight you can, even if outnumbered and/or outclassed. C6 space would be great for PvP with so few of them, but the old guard domesticated it by being complacent, too comfortable in their own home, barely having to grind for ISK, turning it into the perfect habitat for bears to thrive.

Again, everyone thinks they have the answer to fix PvP here or there, but they're all just making excuses for their lack of courage to just say, "Fuckit, let's take this fight."
Waldemar Pawlak
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#62 - 2015-07-06 22:54:37 UTC
Getting more pvp opportunities is v simple in c6s: make them worth fighting for. It's all about the money. Always. Make the rewards for pve better in c6s and you will see ppl flowing into that environment! Show me da karrot and I'll be foyne with a shtick in me butt. Risk & reward. Simples.

For recruitment:

1) Join our public channel: Hard Knocks 2) Follow the steps in MOTD of the channel. 3) Profit!

Bleedingthrough
#63 - 2015-07-06 23:04:06 UTC
Waldemar Pawlak wrote:
Getting more pvp opportunities is v simple in c6s: make them worth fighting for. It's all about the money. Always. Make the rewards for pve better in c6s and you will see ppl flowing into that environment! Show me da karrot and I'll be foyne with a shtick in me butt. Risk & reward. Simples.


I don't think it is as simple as that. Locking your system down for an entire ratting cycle is boring PvPers to death.
Jonn Duune
Biomass Party
Ronins
#64 - 2015-07-07 01:22:14 UTC
Waldemar Pawlak wrote:
Getting more pvp opportunities is v simple in c6s: make them worth fighting for. It's all about the money. Always. Make the rewards for pve better in c6s and you will see ppl flowing into that environment! Show me da karrot and I'll be foyne with a shtick in me butt. Risk & reward. Simples.


On paper that sounds nice, but a bear c6 corp will almost insta-roll connections that spawn. I'd suggest maybe doing something like a 300 mil per jump hole with say a 25 bil mass limit if you want to go that route.

Realistically you need to make more ways into a c6, that are harder to crush.

My name is Jonn Duune, and I wholeheartedly support the message posted above.

Epsilon Artiste
Goonmetrics Inc
#65 - 2015-07-07 02:07:01 UTC
Jonn Duune wrote:
Waldemar Pawlak wrote:
Getting more pvp opportunities is v simple in c6s: make them worth fighting for. It's all about the money. Always. Make the rewards for pve better in c6s and you will see ppl flowing into that environment! Show me da karrot and I'll be foyne with a shtick in me butt. Risk & reward. Simples.


On paper that sounds nice, but a bear c6 corp will almost insta-roll connections that spawn. I'd suggest maybe doing something like a 300 mil per jump hole with say a 25 bil mass limit if you want to go that route.

Realistically you need to make more ways into a c6, that are harder to crush.



Give C6s a frigate static :P
Anthar Thebess
#66 - 2015-07-07 08:39:22 UTC
Epsilon Artiste wrote:

Give C6s a frigate static :P


Better make all static mass varying +- 45% mass ( so you don't know how much ships you need to close it without leaving half of your alts on the other side.

Give all static also high regeneration capabilities , so unless someone really want to close the static, it will stay open for whole lifetime.

Constant , connection will be more than perfect thing to keep those wormholes full of content.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#67 - 2015-07-08 09:14:40 UTC
How about we stop asking ccp to **** up the mechanics anymore than they already have and instead, add new tools and content that will make wormholes interesting again? Blink
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2015-07-08 13:15:04 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
If you want PvP to thrive in C6, you're going to have to work for it. Systematically install PvP corporations in place of the farmers. Take every fight you can, even if outnumbered and/or outclassed.

I am not really sure this is what needs to happen, particularly about the last part.

Stalking, gaining intel, forcing fights - as much components of PvP they are as shooting stuff. If people just sit in W-space waiting for someone to announce their presence to fight, then you are probably looking at equivalent of arranged fight. See, it's basically what was going on one way or another, occasionally, in WH space.

You can bring fights no matter what, get some "gfs" from neighbours, be left in peace generally - because you bring content and evicting you in not only annoying, but also counterproductive to their goals. On the other hand, you may POS up every time and be evicted if you annoy someone enough with your refusal to interact with them.

People naturally will try to look for a compromise between throwing all their income into someone's hungry maw and being labelled as bears and get themselves into real trouble. Meanwhile, other guy is not interested in pressuring that "content creator" corp too much and isn't interested in curbstomps either...

Eventually you end up with environment where not-quite-arranged fights with not much at stake except for ships you bring become norm.

Add lack of incentive to fight for territory. Reasons are basic WH mech:
You will only hold one system without splintering into what effectively can be considered several smaller entities. Your neighbourhood is your statics and you have a lot to choose from - effectively entire New Eden is yours anyway, no matter the hole you occupy. Your resources are similar to what that system next door has to offer.
In addition, you have an ability to entrench yourself pretty deep.

And even if you go out of your way to make alliances, seed some system with forces, attack somebody... What is there to reward your victory? Some fun times grinding structures, mostly. Well, maybe some nice drops from opponent's towers and all, unless he makes sure to deny you that - and hey, you were rich enough in the first place, so it's a nice bonus at best...

Tl;dr: what you are suggesting is more or less what's going on, and what we have now is consequences of natural order of things and game mechanics IMO.
TurboX3
Pulling The Plug
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#69 - 2015-07-08 16:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: TurboX3
I would like a C6 with 2 static's (random c6s, c5s, c4s etc) and null-sec (Static).

This would give opportunities to both the jewing community and pvpers who want both w-space & null pew pew.
Arcturus Gallow
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2015-07-09 01:45:26 UTC
What Wspace would need would be new blood.

I tried to create this, but setting up in high class as a new group is very hard. First making money as a group in C5 is not as easy as most seems to think.

I dont know what kind of spawn rate you have in c6, but in c5 space, if you have a combat anomaly a day you're lucky. You rarely have 5 combat anoms at once. And as a new group having enough capital/rapier/loki pilot is not easy. Sure when you are in one of the groups that can always have 2 carriers 6 dreads and a few lokis to login every time you fancy to run sites, its easier to make money. And if I understand correctly, living in C6 space grants you more sites than C5 (and more profitable).

When you struggle to make money its hard to convince your player base to consistenly bring T3s (assuming they can fly them) to fights where more numerous and more experienced people will more than likely beat you most of the time. In the course of 5 month we had 5 or 6 enjoyable fights, half of them because the opponent (noho and lazerhawks) were kind enough to limit what they brought to the table. As new comers, we lost these fights, and the more fight you lose, the more you need money to replace your loss to fight the next day.

I really tried to make my corp be a pvp corp, but having half the members struggling with making money was a big issue. Having only a handful of people with the skills and ships to make capital escalation makes them burn out. And yes you also run sites in your static without escalation, which we did. But this is not incredible money, and you need to farm like crazy if you want to pay the fuel and your pvp ships, and you end up farming more than you want. You cant just install pvp groups in wormholes like that. These groups needs to already be at a certain level of development, average skillpoints and competency.

I tried to take a highsec corp to C5 living in less than a year, and it was a mistake. You really need a good reserve of t3, dread and carrier pilot to thrive in highclass, and a group with mostly one year old pilots wont have this.

So where do you find groups with the required qualities, or how do you form them, given that many players will prefere to join established and stronger groups.

I also think C5 space is too vast. Ragerolling there is a waste of time especially with current activity levels. Scanning big chains has never been more successful in my experience. C6 with C6 static is the best place to make money and find wh pvp theoretically, this is were wormholers should focus in installing pvp corps.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2015-07-09 04:31:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Arcturus Gallow wrote:
What Wspace would need would be new blood.

I tried to create this, but setting up in high class as a new group is very hard. First making money as a group in C5 is not as easy as most seems to think.

I dont know what kind of spawn rate you have in c6, but in c5 space, if you have a combat anomaly a day you're lucky. You rarely have 5 combat anoms at once. And as a new group having enough capital/rapier/loki pilot is not easy. Sure when you are in one of the groups that can always have 2 carriers 6 dreads and a few lokis to login every time you fancy to run sites, its easier to make money. And if I understand correctly, living in C6 space grants you more sites than C5 (and more profitable).

When you struggle to make money its hard to convince your player base to consistenly bring T3s (assuming they can fly them) to fights where more numerous and more experienced people will more than likely beat you most of the time. In the course of 5 month we had 5 or 6 enjoyable fights, half of them because the opponent (noho and lazerhawks) were kind enough to limit what they brought to the table. As new comers, we lost these fights, and the more fight you lose, the more you need money to replace your loss to fight the next day.

I really tried to make my corp be a pvp corp, but having half the members struggling with making money was a big issue. Having only a handful of people with the skills and ships to make capital escalation makes them burn out. And yes you also run sites in your static without escalation, which we did. But this is not incredible money, and you need to farm like crazy if you want to pay the fuel and your pvp ships, and you end up farming more than you want. You cant just install pvp groups in wormholes like that. These groups needs to already be at a certain level of development, average skillpoints and competency.

I tried to take a highsec corp to C5 living in less than a year, and it was a mistake. You really need a good reserve of t3, dread and carrier pilot to thrive in highclass, and a group with mostly one year old pilots wont have this.

So where do you find groups with the required qualities, or how do you form them, given that many players will prefere to join established and stronger groups.

I also think C5 space is too vast. Ragerolling there is a waste of time especially with current activity levels. Scanning big chains has never been more successful in my experience. C6 with C6 static is the best place to make money and find wh pvp theoretically, this is were wormholers should focus in installing pvp corps.


^This is EXACTLY what the problem is.

Everyone is complaining that there is no PVP in C5-6 WHs but what do they actually complain about when push comes to shove?
Oh, it's too hard to get PVP corps into wspace because it's hard to make money and spawn rates are too low and skills needed to cap escalate are too high and site running is tiring and people gank you while running sites and then you have to replace your pve ships and then you have no isk and cant pvp with the 'good' corps because theyre better at pve than us...
cmon man, give me a break. youre not complaining that it's too hard to pvp in high end space, youre complaining that its too hard to pve there! and youre by no means the only one.

The prevailing mentality these days is PVE is the most important thing because it makes you isk to fuel the PVP war machine!
Instead of this self defeating attitude which only leads to increasingly more PVE and increasingly less PVP, try looking at it the other way:
PVP is the only thing that matters. Don't run pve, dont schedule farming ops, dont fund your corp off PVE tax.
That way you cant actually spend some time PVPing and on the rare occasion that you need to, run a few sites to pay the fuel bills or replace ships.

If you have access to running C5-6 sites with caps, you'll be amazed how rarely you actually need to run them if your corp is legitimately PVP focused.

Changing your corp to this mind set is also by far the easiest way to get rid of dead weight who are just along for the ride which is something most corps need to do.


The only part of this post i agree with is this:
Quote:
C6 with C6 static is the best place to *snip* find wh pvp theoretically, this is were wormholers should focus in installing pvp corps.

This is 100% accurate but people with the means to do so have taken very good care to make sure PVP corps are not allowed to return to C6 space.
(C6 space is far worse than C5 space for safe farming and always has been.)


PS: Youre not wrong about one thing though, i would never in a million years recommend a new player join a C5 or C6 corp as an intro to wspace. The lower classes, C4s and C2s in particular, are a much better entry point and, in my opinion, now a better place to stay too.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

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unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#72 - 2015-07-09 05:37:34 UTC
If i read Arcturus post corretly he probably would not have enough people to run a capital escalation if he did cut the "dead weight".
The result is that his c5/c6 crew that is left would be moving to c4-c1 space.
Wich mean less pve, and even less likely to get back into c5/c6 space.
O and have you tried recruiting when you say you hardly do pve?
Going pvp only will work for a while untill some members can not keep up isk wise and then you will start hemoraging members.
And even then if you are constantly outnumbered, people will start to lose the want to get into the fight.

c5/c6 space need well skilled large groups, wich makes starting in c5/c6 to be realy hard.

O and c5 space to big is very wrong, it is the only thing that keeps you from getting pounched on constantly.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#73 - 2015-07-09 05:54:20 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Hidden Fremen wrote:
If you want PvP to thrive in C6, you're going to have to work for it. Systematically install PvP corporations in place of the farmers. Take every fight you can, even if outnumbered and/or outclassed.

I am not really sure this is what needs to happen, particularly about the last part.

Stalking, gaining intel, forcing fights - as much components of PvP they are as shooting stuff. If people just sit in W-space waiting for someone to announce their presence to fight, then you are probably looking at equivalent of arranged fight. See, it's basically what was going on one way or another, occasionally, in WH space.

You can bring fights no matter what, get some "gfs" from neighbours, be left in peace generally - because you bring content and evicting you in not only annoying, but also counterproductive to their goals. On the other hand, you may POS up every time and be evicted if you annoy someone enough with your refusal to interact with them.

People naturally will try to look for a compromise between throwing all their income into someone's hungry maw and being labelled as bears and get themselves into real trouble. Meanwhile, other guy is not interested in pressuring that "content creator" corp too much and isn't interested in curbstomps either...

Eventually you end up with environment where not-quite-arranged fights with not much at stake except for ships you bring become norm.

Add lack of incentive to fight for territory. Reasons are basic WH mech:
You will only hold one system without splintering into what effectively can be considered several smaller entities. Your neighbourhood is your statics and you have a lot to choose from - effectively entire New Eden is yours anyway, no matter the hole you occupy. Your resources are similar to what that system next door has to offer.
In addition, you have an ability to entrench yourself pretty deep.

And even if you go out of your way to make alliances, seed some system with forces, attack somebody... What is there to reward your victory? Some fun times grinding structures, mostly. Well, maybe some nice drops from opponent's towers and all, unless he makes sure to deny you that - and hey, you were rich enough in the first place, so it's a nice bonus at best...

Tl;dr: what you are suggesting is more or less what's going on, and what we have now is consequences of natural order of things and game mechanics IMO.


For the most part its never about territory, it should never be about territory thats whats so great about wh space, unless you are actually after a particular wh, you can battle and what ever and not have to stress about ohnoes ever fight is an eviction attempt. even after the fight you can still be friends share roams, intell channels, even help each other out if some ones stuck etc.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Riddle us this
#74 - 2015-07-09 06:19:14 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'd do something dramatic to be honest. If you wanted a 2nd static in c6 space, it should be into shattered wormholes.

There are 100 shattered wormholes, about 110 c6. The 2nd static should be a shattered static that rolls every day or two. I'd increase the amount of shattered wandering wormholes into c5's by a significant amount.

to improve the viability, I'd remove repeated escalations out of c5 and c6 space (no more running sites 3 nights in a row, you can do it once, but then the site is done, you want a new escalation, you need a new site). I'd move the escalations into the shattered wormholes.

Connecting wormholes from c6 to shattered space are significantly larger, able to accept more than 3 capitals (6 to 15 roughly). These should also be more difficult to crit and should recharge overtime (not impossible, but it should not be capable of critting a hole for longer than 5 minutes without it regenerating a significant amount of its mass). In addition, if you roll the hole, it should spawn a k162 immediately on the otherside (this is solely into shattered space only and to keep people from closing off their c6 wormhole from everybody).

Shattered holes should have its own statics that spawn into other shattered wormholes (minimum 1 connection to another static shattered wormholes, but more like 2 to 3 connections).

I'd love to see c6 space move their profit margins into shattered space, with c5 having the ability to safari into shattered space. Escalations moved into shattered, dreads and carrier combat increased in shattered, a increase on the ability to move more caps through a hole (solely shattered connected holes), etc.

This would cut the profit of c5 and c6 space significantly by moving its farming capability into its static (like c2's function), and into shattered by moving the escalation fleet into it.

you can still farm your home hole, but the amount drops by over 3/4th. You'll have to farm the static.

If you surf through shattered space, you have the potential to run into every single c6 wormhole in one night.







Of all the ideas in this thread, this one is the most original and the one that would have most effect. Shattered wormholes are such an underrated treasure in the diversity they offer but few make use of. Also as Jack Miton points out: Running full escalations only once in a while cover most of the needs of a pvp group.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#75 - 2015-07-09 09:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I'd do something dramatic to be honest. If you wanted a 2nd static in c6 space, it should be into shattered wormholes.

There are 100 shattered wormholes, about 110 c6. The 2nd static should be a shattered static that rolls every day or two. I'd increase the amount of shattered wandering wormholes into c5's by a significant amount.

to improve the viability, I'd remove repeated escalations out of c5 and c6 space (no more running sites 3 nights in a row, you can do it once, but then the site is done, you want a new escalation, you need a new site). I'd move the escalations into the shattered wormholes.

Connecting wormholes from c6 to shattered space are significantly larger, able to accept more than 3 capitals (6 to 15 roughly). These should also be more difficult to crit and should recharge overtime (not impossible, but it should not be capable of critting a hole for longer than 5 minutes without it regenerating a significant amount of its mass). In addition, if you roll the hole, it should spawn a k162 immediately on the otherside (this is solely into shattered space only and to keep people from closing off their c6 wormhole from everybody).

Shattered holes should have its own statics that spawn into other shattered wormholes (minimum 1 connection to another static shattered wormholes, but more like 2 to 3 connections).

I'd love to see c6 space move their profit margins into shattered space, with c5 having the ability to safari into shattered space. Escalations moved into shattered, dreads and carrier combat increased in shattered, a increase on the ability to move more caps through a hole (solely shattered connected holes), etc.

This would cut the profit of c5 and c6 space significantly by moving its farming capability into its static (like c2's function), and into shattered by moving the escalation fleet into it.

you can still farm your home hole, but the amount drops by over 3/4th. You'll have to farm the static.

If you surf through shattered space, you have the potential to run into every single c6 wormhole in one night.





This is a really interesting idea, which makes use of existing resources. Balancing the "openness" to ensure the right mix of PVE interest and profitability, and ability for an active aware fleet to survive, whilst allowing sensible exposure to PVP,and losses for those who are not alert, whilst Preventing them being a highway needs a little tuning, but overall, a very good and imaginative idea that is worth considering and investigating.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2015-07-09 10:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
GizzyBoy wrote:
For the most part its never about territory, it should never be about territory thats whats so great about wh space, unless you are actually after a particular wh, you can battle and what ever and not have to stress about ohnoes ever fight is an eviction attempt. even after the fight you can still be friends share roams, intell channels, even help each other out if some ones stuck etc.

Which is pretty much my point, when it comes to fleet level, WH space naturally leans towards fights that have something in common with arranged ones - as in, it's not "everything goes, win and destroy at all costs". I don't think that attempts to change that would be something one would consider a shot for the betterment of high class space - as long as general mechanics of W-space stays as it is now.
Waldemar Pawlak
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#77 - 2015-07-09 10:46:49 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

PVP is the only thing that matters. Don't run pve, dont schedule farming ops, dont fund your corp off PVE tax.
That way you cant actually spend some time PVPing and on the rare occasion that you need to, run a few sites to pay the fuel bills or replace ships.

If you have access to running C5-6 sites with caps, you'll be amazed how rarely you actually need to run them if your corp is legitimately PVP focused.

Changing your corp to this mind set is also by far the easiest way to get rid of dead weight who are just along for the ride which is something most corps need to do.


Oh really, and how can a wh corp survive without that income OR be a successful one, smart boy? huh? oh wait...

For recruitment:

1) Join our public channel: Hard Knocks 2) Follow the steps in MOTD of the channel. 3) Profit!

Winthorp
#78 - 2015-07-09 10:52:28 UTC
Waldemar Pawlak wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

PVP is the only thing that matters. Don't run pve, dont schedule farming ops, dont fund your corp off PVE tax.
That way you cant actually spend some time PVPing and on the rare occasion that you need to, run a few sites to pay the fuel bills or replace ships.

If you have access to running C5-6 sites with caps, you'll be amazed how rarely you actually need to run them if your corp is legitimately PVP focused.

Changing your corp to this mind set is also by far the easiest way to get rid of dead weight who are just along for the ride which is something most corps need to do.


Oh really, and how can a wh corp survive without that income OR be a successful one, smart boy? huh? oh wait...


Actually there is a few WH corps that do operate like this and Jack has this one right. PVE only leads to your corp locking down the chain and closing them off from all PVP opportunities. WH escalations are only really beneficial to a few people at a time, any more and its a waste of the extra peoples time.

It is far more efficient to get your members to look after their own wallets on alts or in groups of alts away from your main system.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#79 - 2015-07-09 11:16:32 UTC
Waldemar Pawlak wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

PVP is the only thing that matters. Don't run pve, dont schedule farming ops, dont fund your corp off PVE tax.
That way you cant actually spend some time PVPing and on the rare occasion that you need to, run a few sites to pay the fuel bills or replace ships.

If you have access to running C5-6 sites with caps, you'll be amazed how rarely you actually need to run them if your corp is legitimately PVP focused.

Changing your corp to this mind set is also by far the easiest way to get rid of dead weight who are just along for the ride which is something most corps need to do.


Oh really, and how can a wh corp survive without that income OR be a successful one, smart boy? huh? oh wait...


Obviously by making sure its members all jew 23/7 in unrelated farmholes, so that no one points a finger at you when you complain about farmholes everywhere and no pvp left.
Pook600
Wormhole Tourz
#80 - 2015-07-09 18:15:01 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
I would think the best way to promote PVP in WH space would be to somehow force players to put themselves in harms way.

Maybe its too easy to move goods out of these ISK farms. Removing or drastically reducing K-Space wandering WH from 4, 5 & 6 and limiting connections to similar classes IE . 6 connect to 6, 5 and a few 4s.

This would get rid of the wait till there's a nice wandering WH to High for shipping everything out and replace it with convoys moving through WH space

- just an idea ...

CCP has tried to improve PVP by making WH a super highway network - thinking more connection = more contact.
They may be better off making into wagon-trails where things can be ambushed



I would agree with you, but chains tend to be dead overall and just getting worse over the last year. Although not good at PVP, I do try. It's getting harder to pick fights, even for a guy with a ****** KB like me.
Seems like many smaller Alliances/Corps in WH space are seeing the same thing though. Because when you do run into someone else looking for a fight, it's usually pretty fun.