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I'm tired of that Mmorpg Communism !
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2011-12-30 23:12:35 UTC
iudex wrote:
Tippia wrote:
iudex wrote:
This might be how Eve seems to you, young padawan, but in the Eve which i play, the skills that contribute something to the ship are limited and can be capped (depending on shiptype) in a rather short time.
…and yet, it works just the way you describe it, because, force-insensitive mayfly, skills are a very very very tiny part of what matters (and they work like that too). So if EVE the way you play it doesn't seem like that, it's because you haven't popped out of your cocoon yet.

Once you do, you'll find that EVE is indeed not like those other MMOs.


Lol Don't try to elude, this thread is about the ship strength based on skill-points and that type of strength is capped rather fast (which seems to be new to you). The other "skills" (= personal abilities of a player) are not subject of this thread. Besides, in Eve you need even less "skill" than in other Mmos, usually it is limited to klicking strg+selecting the target from the overview, klicking the orbit button and tapping F1, F2 F3, so even if this were part of this thread, you'd be wrong. Even in Wow pvp can require more "skill" than that. But again, that's not what i'm talking about, the equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied - and i'm posting against this type of communism-like forced and artificial equality, that kills any taste of progression after a while.


Oh hell...

iudex... meet Tippa... "bitter-vet," resident forum whore, "logic-fu" master, and the LAST person you wan to start an argument with.
Back away slowly and you might come out with most of your ego intact.

How did you Veterans start?
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#22 - 2011-12-30 23:17:21 UTC
When you are the only person in the room claiming it's too easy perhaps you are missing something.

Adding people whose heads are on fire to the glasses/no glasses mix
iudex
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-12-30 23:18:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied
Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence.
…

The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess).
Vallek Arkonnis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-12-30 23:33:26 UTC
iudex wrote:
Balance actually kills the immersion - it makes everyone equal like in an unrealistic, artificial communist society. It kills all the fun which comes from the strive for constant improvement and finding a way to beat the other guy.


You're a dramiel pilot, huh?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2011-12-30 23:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
iudex wrote:
The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ?
No. It denies the equality that the cap purportedly creates.
Reading isn't hard — try it.
Quote:
Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player.
Ok. Then balance and equality is no longer a factor, and your thread becomes rather pointless since it disqualifies its own OP. The supposed “sin of superiority” falls wa-a-ay outside of the topic as you now (re)define it.

Progression in EVE is not tied to the ability of a ship, nor is it specifically tied to skills.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-12-30 23:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebastian N Cain
iudex wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied
Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence.
…

The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess).


Confirming that you can´t be bothered to learn to fly and need other methods to become one of the "big guys".

edit: no sunglasses FTWCool

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-12-30 23:58:52 UTC
there is always the option to fit your favourite ship with best available deadspace/faction mods and pvp in it, thus being at least stat-wise better than 99,99% of other pvpers.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#28 - 2011-12-31 00:00:25 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:

(stuff)
Back away slowly and you might come out with most of your ego intact.


I kinda doubt tthe OP will listen to this part.

Popcorn for the show?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Solhild
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-12-31 00:07:13 UTC
Female avatar, no glasses - if it helps Lol
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-12-31 00:37:47 UTC
Camios wrote:

Also, most important: increasing the glasses of pilots wearing glasses.


No.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-12-31 00:50:33 UTC
Communism!

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#32 - 2011-12-31 01:22:40 UTC
Well I don't think much of the way the idea was presented but at it's core I think it has some value. Why ? well..

1. Whoever designed this skill system wanted it to take a long time to develop a charecter, but at the time they would be unaware of how long the game was likely to last, therefore there 'balancing' may have not developed the way they intended.

2. There are people out there who can fly every ship available apperently, if they aren't interested in any skillsets other than ship combat what is there now for them to train.

I don't think this problem neccesarily requires the development of a whole new 'infinite proggresion' skill system.

My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Famble
Three's a Crowd
#33 - 2011-12-31 01:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Famble
Professor Alphane wrote:

...
My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.


I don't understand how that's a solution to anything if in fact there is a problem, there's not as far as I'm concerned. Not only would that be the incredibly lazy it doesn't add any depth whatsoever. It just means I'll be 2% better at the same skill you have for 18 days, 42 minutes and 17 seconds at which point we'll be even again.

Better would be some way to customize your skill set. Activate some extra bonus at the expense of another or some such creative thing. I don't know, game design isn't my strong point.

Adding sunglasses to the glasses/no glasses ratio as well as a look of indignation. You're welcome.

If anyone ever looks at you and says,_ "Hold my beer, watch this,"_  you're probably going to want to pay attention.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#34 - 2011-12-31 01:42:13 UTC
Not entirely sure what I said has to do with 2% and 18 days, but there definatly seems to be some confusion.

I'm not on about time multipliers I am on about the raw magnitude of the skill ie drones 5 = 5 usable drones, drones 6 would mean 6

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#35 - 2011-12-31 01:50:00 UTC
iudex wrote:
Why does everyone has to "equal" in MMOs ? To run around in the same top gear at the same maximum level, with the same top stats etc. ? Why can't there be difference in a way that someone who invests more time/energy becomes stronger than others ?


There are already ways that people who invest more time/energy become stronger: you can buy better ships or better modules.

Of course, if you want to be able to play the game for more hours to gain a game-mechanic advantage such as level 6 of a skill, I would want the ability to gain game-mechanic advantage by pumping real world money into the game. That's fair to me: you're investing your life-hours in one form, I'm investing my life-hours in a different form.

It's worth noting that you can be a 80M SP pilot with no gunnery skills. The cap of level 5 on a skill doesn't mean that everyone has the same skills. Some pilots will be Amarr specialists. Some will be Minmatar specialists. Others will fly freighters and spend a lot of time doing stuff with POSes.

iudex wrote:
And for EVE: why are there only 5 levels to each skill, so that everyone runs around with the same "capped" skill-sets after a while ?


Yes, but you're looking at tens of years to reach that point.

iudex wrote:
There is no taste of progression after a while, when one gets "capped" with skills for a certain ship.


So you can fly Gallente Battleships with T2 rails and blasters, now go learn to fly stealth bombers. Simply learning to fly all T1/T2 frigates will take a significant chunk of training time.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Jace Errata
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-12-31 01:50:40 UTC
Skill system is fine as is, besides I can see more skills being added as more ships/mechanics/stuff/PI2.1 get added, which will increase the number of skills required to "max out", thereby decreasing the number of people who are "maxed out".

I used to not wear sunglasses like you, but then I took an awesome to the face

tweeten

One day they woke me up so I could live forever

It's such a shame the same will never happen to you
Velicitia
XS Tech
#37 - 2011-12-31 01:55:29 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:

My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.


it already takes about a month to train rank 5 skills on a "perfect" SP/hour toon (e.g. Cruiser from 0 to 5), and even longer the higher the rank:

Rank 5 -- 16 days from L4 to 5
Rank 6 -- 19+ (Battlecruisers)
Rank 7 -- 22+ (Capital Turret)
Rank 8 -- 26+ (Large Turret Spec)
Rank 9 -- there are none?
Rank 10 -- 32+ (Freighter)
Rank 11 -- none?
Rank 12 -- 39+ (Dread)
Rank 13 -- none?
Rank 14 -- 45+ (Carrier)
Rank 15 -- none?
Rank 16 -- 52d+ (titan)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-12-31 02:31:29 UTC
iudex wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
he equality which is based on skillpoints can't be denied
Of course it can. In fact, the skill systems itself denies it. This system actually allows for superiority, unlike pretty much every other system in existence.
…

The skill system denies that the skill points contributing to a ship can be capped ? Do you have more than 5 level per skills or more skills that contribute to the ship performance than others ? I'm sorry for having discussed with you, didn't notice that you wanted to troll or bring up topics that are not subject of this thread (= other abilities than skill-points) and then make nonsensical posts about this other stuff. Skills and progression which i talk here about, are that based on skill-points and training time, the game-side of progressing a character, not the special abilities of a player. This is obvious to anyone who has an IQ higher than 80 and doesn't completely fail at understanding what is meant by a certain text (even if that text is written in poor 2nd language English, i confess).


I completely understand what this guy is trying to say.
According to him, the fact that he has 123mil SP means he should by default be superior to anyone who has invested less time.

EVE Online isn't really about the skill points, but they do help.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#39 - 2011-12-31 02:43:55 UTC
I am now calculating how long it takes to get every skill a combat Punisher benefits (or could benefit) from. More at... whenever I finish.

My guess though is that it will be a long enough time to show that the OP is full of **** and just wants to complain.

Or he was a Dramiel pilot, and is upset that the best frigate in the game at everything is no longer the best (mild hyperbole).
iudex
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#40 - 2011-12-31 02:53:41 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
Well I don't think much of the way the idea was presented but at it's core I think it has some value. Why ? well..

1. Whoever designed this skill system wanted it to take a long time to develop a charecter, but at the time they would be unaware of how long the game was likely to last, therefore there 'balancing' may have not developed the way they intended.

2. There are people out there who can fly every ship available apperently, if they aren't interested in any skillsets other than ship combat what is there now for them to train.

I don't think this problem neccesarily requires the development of a whole new 'infinite proggresion' skill system.

My suggestion would be release level 6 skills, these would mean that everyone could develop just that little bit further in there chosen proffesion, though some of these (especially high multiplier ones) could take months to train.

Will give people something to do for a couple of years maybe and surely won't effect gamble balance greatly.


That are some good thoughts, they added the skill-intensive capital ships to give long-term player a perspective in skill progression, but that's almost half a decade ago, since then there were only minor skill additions (t3 ships, rigs, black ops etc., things that can be trained in a few months), the system didn't keep step with the skilltraing of vets since then.

And there doesn't have to be much coding work or even an invention of a new skill system.
For example we have the heavy missile skill and the heavy missile specialisation skill. The second skill gives a smaller DPS increase and requires more time to train. This could be continued with a 3rd specialisation skill, that gives an even smaller DPS increase and takes even longer to train, a 4th spec skill etc. ad infinitum. That means the only change are couple of new skillbooks sold by NPCs. I'd prefer to train 6 months for a 0.25% DPS increase in a weapon system that i use instead of training skills that i don't use at all.