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What are Attributes for and why are they still in the game?

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Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2015-07-07 20:26:52 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Baaldor wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short.


I think it really separates pilots a bit as to make them a wee bit different. meaning that it is another way of adjusting (or not) the process of learning something another pilot may not value as much and able to pool or push their attributes towards that direction.

It gives a slightl uniqueness to one pilot verses another rather than the vanilla cookie cutter stamp out some sort of character etc etc.

I can't even agree that they provided even a "slight uniqueness" between pilots. Uniqueness between pilots implies character. Attributes are simply a min-maxing technique to optimize your yearly skill plan. Based on a character's attributes, do you go around saying things like, oh hey, that pilot is smart! Or that pilot is charismatic? Do you fly combat ships because your pilot has high perception? Do you only do industry with your high intelligence characters? What is the average Charisma attribute of Fleet Commanders?

I would guess that even role-players don't take their attributes seriously.



You read into what I was saying possibly.

I guess where I am coming from is when you have a focus as to where you are going with your character, you will manipulate the stats to achieve. I said 'A BIT' and 'SLIGHT' not some dramatic differences. You know nuances. subtle differences?

You see it all of the time in the character bazaar, there is no two pilots exactly alike.

And as far as role playing...where in the fck did you get that from.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-07-07 21:10:47 UTC
GAJY wrote:
For me personally I just see them and attribute implants as an extra thing to put new players off PVP. For people I know who play, they're just a nuisance and they wouldn't care if they were gone, just something you have to remap once in awhile and spend money on, yet it adds nothing to the experience.


No one is forcing you to use implants.

Your car (if you are old enough to drive) can go above the speed limit. Maybe we should electronically limit it to the speed limit while we are at it...

Personally when i have a 65 day skill to train and i stick some implants, i can take a week or two off that. That's pretty cool.

Been around since the beginning.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#23 - 2015-07-08 01:10:00 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short.

Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-07-08 01:38:14 UTC
Webvan wrote:
I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.

Dang, you're right!

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#25 - 2015-07-08 02:00:58 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Webvan wrote:
I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.

Dang, you're right!



Or 8 year olds who think spelling now, naow, is cute.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2015-07-08 02:08:36 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short.

Sometimes I go back and read how loudly, insistently and staunchly people defended Learning skills, just to see how much of a tempest in a teapot the Starter SP/Attribute removal conversations are.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#27 - 2015-07-08 02:22:37 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Webvan wrote:
I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.

Dang, you're right!



Or 8 year olds who think spelling now, naow, is cute.

needs moar cowbell

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#28 - 2015-07-08 03:39:33 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short.

Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like.


I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-07-08 10:56:49 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Attributes aren't the Big Bad, but they're certainly an unintuitive and unfun system. The mourning process following their demise will be short.

Speak for yourself, I find the decisions which the current system present the player quite interesting, and if your looking for a game in which things are intuitive then your in the wrong game. Removing attributes would fix literally nothing and at the same time remove an element of the game some players find interesting. If you don't like the system then just put on a balanced remap and you can train your skills however you like.


I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

It's not about wearing fancy clothes, it's about fancy clothes hiding what is underneath ... Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#30 - 2015-07-08 13:31:30 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:


I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc.

Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player.

If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#31 - 2015-07-08 13:45:37 UTC
If they remove attributes, will I lose my spell-casting abilities?Cry
Maybe some scrolls could be dropped into the game...
oh wait, there's still potionsLol
George Gouillot
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-07-08 13:50:04 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Commissar Rain wrote:
Skills are bad for new players too. Along with ISK.

Remove both.



Also you don't spend money to do remaps.


Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier".


This is WiP already, just be patient ...
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#33 - 2015-07-08 14:48:53 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:


I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc.

Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player.

If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one.


Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#34 - 2015-07-08 15:26:21 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.

I am definitely one that believes every game I play should be very different from one another (my exp from nearly 40yrs of video gaming as well as my own projects). That being said, I find EVE to be set apart from all other games currently on the market (most being WoW clones now perhaps). I don't want every game to be the same, and I don't need or even want instant gratification.

Attributes are much like that here, such as a means to an end, and in ways reflect real life. You take that out, you have just another mario kart. Replace it with what everyone else is doing, you simply dumb the game down to just another clone of something or another.

The current system offers a challenge. It's not so simple that you can just click away and everything will just be dandy in the end. The system provides not only challenge, but consequences for our actions, or lack thereof. A mental challenge, a puzzle, even at times a paradox, that we must wrap our minds around and reason our way through.

The only real issue I have with the system currently is that while so many changes are rolling out to the game, the 1yr remap timer is a little underwhelming currently. Not at all times, I think it's a great system, but during times of rapid change it can be a little restrictive. But I'm sure as the current state of game development progresses forward, this will be just a minor issue left in the past as things balance out to their conclusion.

Is the system beloved by all? I'm sure it's not. Does it work? well some like to say quite appropriately "don't fix what's not broken".

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#35 - 2015-07-08 15:29:27 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:


I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc.

Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player.

If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one.


Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.


And you are in CSM? I am glad I did not vote for you.
First you are talking about how atributes have meaning by differentiating characters skills, outside EVE. Then you are neglecting the attributes having impact on differentiating learning speed in EVE, that is the only option to differentiate our characters by learning skills fitting to an attributes, actual learning plan. You want to make this hilly differentiate ecosystem into a parking lot, plain as unimaginative like all parking lots out there. You should resign from CSM.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2015-07-08 17:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:


I don't like the system because as a min maxer it forces me to plan around pointless arbitrary figures that have no meaningful in game effect.

As for character differentiation, that's what overpriced digital apparel is for, and the best part is other players can actually see it.

Attributes better reflect real life. It's typical to say be a better artist than to be a better programmer. Or to be a better fictional writer than to be a better mathamatician. Otherwise there would be no such need for things like college placement tests etc.

Also EVE reflects more traditional rpg style gaming such as you find in MUD's or table top gaming (e.g dnd), not mario kart or pac man. This is far better suited for the rpg type player.

If you make a game try to be everything for everyone, you only make a game for no one.


Yes except in most RPGs attributes actually have an in game effect on your character and other players. A high strength character hits harder or wears heavier armor. A high agility character can ride motorcycles instead of cars, or access pathways other people can't. Those attributes meaningfully and obviously differentiate characters by power and ability.

In EVE, being in fleet with a high Perception FC does nothing for your game experience. Taking a contract from a high Charisma person has no effect. Downing boosters while you have high Willpower doesn't cut down hangovers.

I'm not saying they should. But the attributes in Eve fail to provide the RP part of RPG that attributes serve in most other titles in the genre. Many a newbro have probably been disappointed to learn that no, having higher Memory doesn't let you train more skills at once or show a cloaked ship's last known position. They're just lame training stats.



....and you are on the CSM.

Welp, better dust off the Atari joystick and await the conversion to Asteroids.
Lucy Lopez
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-07-08 17:22:59 UTC
Webvan wrote:
I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.


lol... whenever I see people talk about SP I still think 'spellpower' Oops

As far as I can tell the attribute system is there to punish you if you have the nerve to change your mind about your skill plan 6 months after you remapped.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#38 - 2015-07-08 17:46:10 UTC
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Webvan wrote:
I think this is what happens when 3 million people suddenly quit WoW and every game forum is filled with 'make this game easy naow'. Attributes aren't the problem.


lol... whenever I see people talk about SP I still think 'spellpower' Oops

As far as I can tell the attribute system is there to punish you if you have the nerve to change your mind about your skill plan 6 months after you remapped.

Yep, it has consequences. This is why I always suggest to newbies to just run with balanced attributes for a while. The first six months it doesn't matter if you lose a few days if that's what it comes to. Of course all new characters get a bonus remap, so helps quite a bit for early training.

By the time you get past that, you should have a decent handle on the game to best manage your attributes. If that comes into question, best to just run balanced, nothing wrong with that. Webbies next remap will be fairly balanced most likely, which I have ready but not until my current skill que gets to that point, which between now and then saves me about a week.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Sarayu Wyvern
The Bosena Accords
Round Table Assembly
#39 - 2015-07-08 17:48:15 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Commissar Rain wrote:
Skills are bad for new players too. Along with ISK.

Remove both.



Also you don't spend money to do remaps.


Actually the worst thing for new players is other players, really. I think it would just be best to remove everyone, in one progressive swoop. This is idea is not any worse than all the hilarious nonsense people have been spouting over the years in regards to "newbies catching up" and "this game should be made easier".

I did not come to this thread expecting I would leave it laughing.Lol

Alt of MidnightWyvern. (Mobius Wyvern in Dust 514)
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#40 - 2015-07-08 18:13:37 UTC
BRB resigning from CSM because I have a subjective opinion on what constitutes fun. I'll let Xenuria know where my parking spot was.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT