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Rat aggression swaps in pvp situations.

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W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#361 - 2015-07-07 23:29:16 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
So you were lying about having to travel as well? You can't undock in your home system and get a kill from a guy already there without NPC help? You can't be bothered to bring an appropriate hull out of your hanger?

Eve may be a little too hard for you.


No that was never my point, although it is a valid one. Eve isnt to hard, it is to easy. I want to be able to have a hard fight and not a easy afk win, but i cant. But thats my personal problem with the system, it in itself is ********.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#362 - 2015-07-08 06:12:10 UTC
Your logic does not follow.

Eve is too easy, so you want the rats to help you to make it harder?

These aren't the changes you need to accomplish your goal. Think objectively about what it really means to have a harder fight and you will realize that many things can change to give you more game, but getting help from the rats isn't one of them. If anything it makes your ganking harder and you should welcome that rat agro.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#363 - 2015-07-08 06:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Having more options is hardly what makes anything harder. If somehow you had to use "weaker" ship with no option to bring big and scary one, then that would be something... Arguably, this is how it works with ability to catch people though.

But then that would be making stuff easier for another side.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#364 - 2015-07-08 07:13:34 UTC
mission runners like Mike Voidstar enjoy the rats defending them in missions, pointless to argue with them.
Iain Cariaba
#365 - 2015-07-08 08:54:40 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
mission runners like Mike Voidstar enjoy the rats defending them in missions, pointless to argue with them.

Just as it's pointless to argue with Mark "give me easier ratter kills" Hadden.

You're both pointless to this discussion.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#366 - 2015-07-08 09:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Mark Hadden wrote:
mission runners like Mike Voidstar enjoy the rats defending them in missions, pointless to argue with them.

Just as it's pointless to argue with Mark "give me easier ratter kills" Hadden.

You're both pointless to this discussion.


no kill is easy, the most work/skill/risk is in the hunt itself. Just asking for rats not defending the ratter.

You should try that and come back here with some killmail links.
Iain Cariaba
#367 - 2015-07-08 10:21:04 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Mark Hadden wrote:
mission runners like Mike Voidstar enjoy the rats defending them in missions, pointless to argue with them.

Just as it's pointless to argue with Mark "give me easier ratter kills" Hadden.

You're both pointless to this discussion.


no kill is easy, the most work/skill/risk is in the hunt itself. Just asking for rats not defending the ratter.

You should try that and come back here with some killmail links.

Nah, when I PvP, I prefer hunting things that can actually fight back.

Oooh, you killed some poor sap who was tanked for a specific damage, and therefore stood zero chance at all against you. Big whoop. Puts you on the same rung as highsec suicide gankers.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#368 - 2015-07-08 10:28:51 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Nah, when I PvP, I prefer hunting things that can actually fight back.


I prefer hunting things that look like verified faction spawns dropping loot accordingly. If his ship is fit for fighting or no, that's entirely the other pilot's choice. Killing a ratting Gnosis with a tristan in his homesystem is still honourabru enough. (Couldn't have done that in guristas space, but drones go easy on your sensors)
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2015-07-08 10:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Nah, when I PvP, I prefer hunting things that can actually fight back.


in theory you prefer? Because basically all of your 315 total kills are from blob-pvp.
Nothing wrong with it, I just wouldnt call them "hunting".

Or are you talking about targets who actually can fight back 1v20 like those? lmao, you are a true honorabru pvper
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45145497/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45615241/
or maybe this; 3v1
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45100693/ tru warrior


If you have no clue then stop making claims about easy kills.

Iain Cariaba wrote:

Oooh, you killed some poor sap who was tanked for a specific damage, and therefore stood zero chance at all against you. Big whoop. Puts you on the same rung as highsec suicide gankers.

again, most effort is in the hunt itself, in not getting (w)reckt and finding/catching targets. But how would you know about that.
Iain Cariaba
#370 - 2015-07-08 10:56:01 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Nah, when I PvP, I prefer hunting things that can actually fight back.


in theory you prefer? Because basically all of your 315 total kills are from blob-pvp.
Nothing wrong with it, I just wouldnt call them "hunting".

Or are you talking about targets who actually can fight back 1v20 like those? lmao, you are a true honorabru pvper
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45145497/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45615241/
or maybe this; 3v1
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45100693/ tru warrior


If you have no clue then stop making claims about easy kills.

Iain Cariaba wrote:

Oooh, you killed some poor sap who was tanked for a specific damage, and therefore stood zero chance at all against you. Big whoop. Puts you on the same rung as highsec suicide gankers.

again, most effort is in the hunt itself, in not getting (w)reckt and finding/catching targets. But how would you know about that.

Oh look, more of your same old "you don't play exactly like I do, so your argument is invalid." Then again, when you can't put together a single coherent argument, I suppose you fall back on whatever works.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#371 - 2015-07-08 11:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
no just negating your tru honorable pvp bullcr.. excuses, obviously.

I`m sure that TFI was totally fighting you back like a boss, in the first 2 seconds before it died.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#372 - 2015-07-08 12:02:36 UTC
Confirming if it's not in the same place, same hull, with the same weapon, against the same enemy that Mark wants to cherry pick then nothing you present will be good enough. Unless you agree with him, then it's fine. If you don't agree him then you are obviously (sarcasm alert) trolling, ignorant, or stupid- no matter what.

If it's all about the hunt and not the kill, why worry about Npc damage? Right, because it's totally about the kill.

If it's about disrupting ratter income then why is disrupting ratter income not good enough? Right, because it's totally about the kill.

Everything comes back to cheap kills assisted by rat damage.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#373 - 2015-07-08 12:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Confirming if it's not in the same place, same hull, with the same weapon, against the same enemy that Mark wants to cherry pick then nothing you present will be good enough. Unless you agree with him, then it's fine. If you don't agree him then you are obviously (sarcasm alert) trolling, ignorant, or stupid- no matter what.

no, its more like if you pretend to seek honor pvp, your kill stats better be not mostly blob-pvp and ganks.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

If it's all about the hunt and not the kill, why worry about Npc damage? Right, because it's totally about the kill.

If it's about disrupting ratter income then why is disrupting ratter income not good enough? Right, because it's totally about the kill.

yet again you fail to understand a basic 2 liner. I never wrote "its about the hunt", what I wrote was the most effort/skill/risk is in the hunt - but I guess you rather "misinterpret" it on purpose for another nonsense reply in lack of a better counter.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

If it's about disrupting ratter income then why is disrupting ratter income not good enough? Right, because it's totally about the kill.

yes it is about the kill (never claimed anything else), otherwise we wouldnt talk about NPC aggro, obviously.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
Everything comes back to cheap kills assisted by rat damage.

again you yet have to show how those kills are "cheap kills" (they are not).
Dont even try, you cant, since this thread is not about high sec missions.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#374 - 2015-07-08 13:30:38 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
we should stop argueing about PvP topics with mission runners like Mike.

And it is useless to try and debate with whiners who want to be handed easy kills "because I want them".
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2015-07-08 13:43:56 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Mark Hadden wrote:
we should stop argueing about PvP topics with mission runners like Mike.

And it is useless to try and debate with whiners who want to be handed easy kills "because I want them".


oh, another PvEer shitposting about "easy kills".
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#376 - 2015-07-08 13:45:14 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


And a startios easily tanks that, but nobodie ever doubted that pver/ratter can be killed. Thats not the issue, if i see a 2 month old caracal do a warpable anomaly i could take my curse and get a free kill with 0 issue, but i dont want that, thats boring is ****. What i want to to bring a t1 frigate and have a even fight, but due to how rats work i cant.


ShockedShockedShockedShocked

The stupid in that statement really burns.

It also verifies that you want your "PvP" to be practically free compared to your victim. By your own statement the current state in equivalent ships should suit you just fine.

Your entire threadnaught was about being unable to kill ratters because heavier ships could not make the trip and catch them, and lighter ships were shredded by the rats. Except that it's been shown that you can catch and kill in heavier hulls, and your own words talk about how there are t1 frigate ratters out there you could engage in lighter hulls.

Basically, you have nothing to cry about, because you can hunt in the hulls you want, so long as your targets are similar and you can survive the same space they are in, or you can hunt heavier prey in heavier ships. Diminishing Returns ensures that your investment need not match their investment at the upper end... I mean how much more can you want?


No my entire thread was about how rat agressions swap make no sense and favor big ships way more then small ones. Also stop the retardation about investement, or you end up in the my tracking titan should roflstomp everything cause i risk so much. Isk inn that is irrelevant.

My issue with this is purely that if i undock in my home system and see a ratter in an anomaly in a ishtar (which has happened very often) i cant give him a gf in a svipul but that i have to gank him and that sites protect the ones running the sites which makes no sense.


OMG, large ship have an advantage somewhere in this speed crazed game. This is obvioulsy game breaking.

Right tool for the job, stop trying to do everything in small ship, they are not the right tool for everything. They are pretty damn good tool but still not the right one for this one job of killing ships in anomaly.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2015-07-08 14:13:05 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


And a startios easily tanks that, but nobodie ever doubted that pver/ratter can be killed. Thats not the issue, if i see a 2 month old caracal do a warpable anomaly i could take my curse and get a free kill with 0 issue, but i dont want that, thats boring is ****. What i want to to bring a t1 frigate and have a even fight, but due to how rats work i cant.


ShockedShockedShockedShocked

The stupid in that statement really burns.

It also verifies that you want your "PvP" to be practically free compared to your victim. By your own statement the current state in equivalent ships should suit you just fine.

Your entire threadnaught was about being unable to kill ratters because heavier ships could not make the trip and catch them, and lighter ships were shredded by the rats. Except that it's been shown that you can catch and kill in heavier hulls, and your own words talk about how there are t1 frigate ratters out there you could engage in lighter hulls.

Basically, you have nothing to cry about, because you can hunt in the hulls you want, so long as your targets are similar and you can survive the same space they are in, or you can hunt heavier prey in heavier ships. Diminishing Returns ensures that your investment need not match their investment at the upper end... I mean how much more can you want?


No my entire thread was about how rat agressions swap make no sense and favor big ships way more then small ones. Also stop the retardation about investement, or you end up in the my tracking titan should roflstomp everything cause i risk so much. Isk inn that is irrelevant.

My issue with this is purely that if i undock in my home system and see a ratter in an anomaly in a ishtar (which has happened very often) i cant give him a gf in a svipul but that i have to gank him and that sites protect the ones running the sites which makes no sense.


OMG, large ship have an advantage somewhere in this speed crazed game. This is obvioulsy game breaking.

Right tool for the job, stop trying to do everything in small ship, they are not the right tool for everything. They are pretty damn good tool but still not the right one for this one job of killing ships in anomaly.



And i disagree with that.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#378 - 2015-07-08 14:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Frostys Virpio wrote:

OMG, large ship have an advantage somewhere in this speed crazed game. This is obvioulsy game breaking.

Like W0lf pointed out, tracking **** were a thing too but were nerfed into the ground for a good reason.

Frostys Virpio wrote:

Right tool for the job, stop trying to do everything in small ship, they are not the right tool for everything.

argumentation by self-evidence, hm?
"Because small ship isn't the right tool for the job, its not right tool for the job."

This is exactly where we disagree and asking for change, to allow smaller ships to meaningful threaten isk farmers in backwaters, because small and covert ships are the only realistic "tool" we are able to field in said areas, especially after WH nerf in Aegis. Change it to something like it was functioning well for pretty much 10 years, prior CCPs catastrophic PvE AI "upgrade".

Frostys Virpio wrote:
They are pretty damn good tool but still not the right one for this one job of killing ships in anomaly.

thats exactly what we want to get fixed.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#379 - 2015-07-08 14:56:28 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

OMG, large ship have an advantage somewhere in this speed crazed game. This is obvioulsy game breaking.

Like W0lf pointed out, tracking **** were a thing too but were nerfed into the ground for a good reason.

Frostys Virpio wrote:

Right tool for the job, stop trying to do everything in small ship, they are not the right tool for everything.

argumentation by self-evidence, hm?
"Because small ship isn't the right tool for the job, its not right tool for the job."

This is exactly where we disagree and asking for change, to allow smaller ships to meaningful threaten isk farmers in backwaters, because small and covert ships are the only realistic "tool" we are able to field in said areas, especially after WH nerf in Aegis. Change it to something like it was functioning well for pretty much 10 years, prior CCPs catastrophic PvE AI "upgrade".

Frostys Virpio wrote:
They are pretty damn good tool but still not the right one for this one job of killing ships in anomaly.

thats exactly what we want to get fixed.


You want to operate behind enemy line but think asking for a covert ship is asking too much. Sorry but I can't support this. Like I said before, it would require the change to a never swapping AI which is what CCP didn't like in the first place.

The issue is you can't say "we'll strike in the middle" on this change because your T3D and frigs will always die to an aggro-swap no matter if it's a hard one or a random one (ship change target at random for example so you can't only supertank one ship and the rest never get targetted). Your ship is not designed to survive in an enviroment with that much DPS on the field that could get applied to it. For it to "work" and let you use small ships, it absolutely has to work FOR YOU all the time. This is just plain stupid. The kill of course won't be free but I really don't think CCP want you to be able to just shrug off the presence of other ships on site beside your target.

Either both side of the PvP engagement has to be aware of what is included in his current environment or one side can entirely ignore it. It it start mattering for the hunter, I'm sorry but you have to have more tank than a frig or a T3D and CCP seem to want it to matter to the hunter too.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#380 - 2015-07-08 15:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Frostys Virpio wrote:
For it to "work" and let you use small ships, it absolutely has to work FOR YOU all the time.

like it worked for over 10 years.
"For me", maybe, but well everything else in a hostile area works against me, so I think its a fair deal to ask for at least NPC not to work against me too.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
This is just plain stupid. The kill of course won't be free but I really don't think CCP want you to be able to just shrug off the presence of other ships on site beside your target.

"shrug off" is a wrong expression IMO, better like "not have to bother about", at least until next spawn (like it was in old AI). Since I'm not the one who farms them all day I think its a fair deal. You farm them, you should get rekt by them at the first chance of help from a 3rd party.

Frostys Virpio wrote:

Either both side of the PvP engagement has to be aware of what is included in his current environment or one side can entirely ignore it. It it start mattering for the hunter, I'm sorry but you have to have more tank than a frig or a T3D and CCP seem to want it to matter to the hunter too.

Thats I disagree with. Its simply too unrealistic to think that the hunter can bring a ship into deep ass enemy space, which is able to tank the site + be pvp fit on top, when hunting solo. Sure, here and there some few people in fact manage to survive in a heavy ship and even score a kill or two, but thats not a significant amount to say solo hunting is a viable thing post Retribution. You always need a gang, let alone because of gurista rats pretty safely jamming any solo ship coming into site, which is insanely ********.