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Crime & Punishment

 
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People! Train your newbies!

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Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#21 - 2015-07-07 03:33:37 UTC
I'm not quoting all that allow me to just retort here briefly instead

1. Marlin did in fact help the newbro out and taught a valuable lesson in warping gate to gate via convo in case you need it all spelt out.
2. It was a noob ship... The lesson learnt could have been in a domi in 3 weeks time if we didn't do it now. This is one more reason shooting them while new is important
3. I was killed in my first month of playing (not my first month after making the account I wasn't wrapped enough with the game in my first week to pay but got convinced later)
4. I was invited to about a dozen corps in local and 2 via mail/convo. I ignored them all as joining some random group for no reason seemed pointless until somebody suggested apping to eve uni which I looked up and it seemed decent with little tax)
6. TLDR on video is that killing newbros is good for retention
7. I do hang out in rookie chat
8. At one month I was ready to quit eve it was only then that I was killed by a wardeccer in my then itty 2 carrying all that I owned -3 ships and thus swore bloody revenge on wardeccers (which I achieved). It got me involved in the game in a way that missions and training skills never could have.

In summary killing new players and helping them out after is Good for the game

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

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'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Marlin Spikes
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-07-07 09:23:35 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Yourmoney Mywallet wrote:

a) pop all the things. always.

b) if he's really a trunoob, pop him first then take the time to explain to him what happened. also tell him that his ceo will make up for his loss, because - well, that's what a corp is for, no?

c) but yeah - pop all the things.



dude, you do realize f*cking with actual newbies is not allowed by CCP, right? we can't complain about not getting enough players in the game and poor NPE and then pop one day old toons who don't understand the game yet. Go gank someone who at least knows what an afterburner is, for christ sake.

Gank, by all means, but don't be an a**hole about it to true newbies. If CCP finds out you are doing that, bad things will happen.


"ain't nobody got time for dat!" Pop first, then ask questions later.

Bombers Rule!!!
Marlin Spikes
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-07-07 09:38:00 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:


You might gain some sympathy....

...And I'm just saying take it easy on new players. Give them a month or so to learn to ropes. If you are shooting two day old players who haven't even finished the career missions, you aren't helping anyone.

What is it with high sec mercs and their being afraid of fights?


I helped. I replaced his rookie ship every time it popped. EVERY TIME!

Bombers Rule!!!
Tepijo ntepreoccupa
La Rapida
#24 - 2015-07-07 10:39:08 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Because no one should be popping one day old true newbies, wardec or not.


Well... depends.
EVE is not a fair game, and is not designed to be, and this particular design is what is liked by many players that stay here.

I am a 3 month old player, have 2 characters (not 2 "alt", 2 characters becouse they live 2 completely and separate lives).
I have been popped first time after 3 days of play, in a WH, then started a chat with the guy that popped my ship and him was so kinda gentle to bookmark for me the exit for my capsule. After the first pop I subscribed 6 month of game.

2 days later I was moving my base to lowsec, and headed first time in null. Popped on first gatecamp from low to null, 5 days old.
The guys was so kinda gentle to chat me to stay in HS for a while until learn something. Learned how to filter the treath in the star map.

Well, 2 weeks later I moved definately to null, popped a couple times more in my probe, then not popped anymore, gate camps or not gate camps. Joined for a month a null corp, then left to make my own one man corp as I need to feel "free" to make more different experiences out of a corp.

In all the time I spent a lot of time, really a lot, reading on forums, google, guides, and so on. Then test what I was reading.

Surely a babysh behaviour (the classic "i pop noobs for the tears") from the ganker wont help the popped noob, but this will teach to the newbie that in this game there are many different kinds of ppl. Someone is more mature and a good mate to play with (even in opposite side) some others are just to evitate to play with when possible, becouse they are not playing "with" you or "teaching" you anything.

Could my experience be different if the guy in the WH had pop my capsule instead of show me the exit? Well, no. EVE is too much charming to leave it without a second try. And ships are pixels after all.

So, pop them, pop them all if you like, but the only way to teach them something is not just pop them. But talk them.
Yourmoney Mywallet
Doomheim
#25 - 2015-07-07 11:19:23 UTC
Marlin Spikes wrote:
"ain't nobody got time for dat!" Pop first, then ask questions later.

Cannot be posted often enough.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-07-07 13:28:10 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
I'm not quoting all that allow me to just retort here briefly instead

1. Marlin did in fact help the newbro out and taught a valuable lesson in warping gate to gate via convo in case you need it all spelt out.
2. It was a noob ship... The lesson learnt could have been in a domi in 3 weeks time if we didn't do it now. This is one more reason shooting them while new is important
3. I was killed in my first month of playing (not my first month after making the account I wasn't wrapped enough with the game in my first week to pay but got convinced later)
4. I was invited to about a dozen corps in local and 2 via mail/convo. I ignored them all as joining some random group for no reason seemed pointless until somebody suggested apping to eve uni which I looked up and it seemed decent with little tax)
6. TLDR on video is that killing newbros is good for retention
7. I do hang out in rookie chat
8. At one month I was ready to quit eve it was only then that I was killed by a wardeccer in my then itty 2 carrying all that I owned -3 ships and thus swore bloody revenge on wardeccers (which I achieved). It got me involved in the game in a way that missions and training skills never could have.

In summary killing new players and helping them out after is Good for the game


In summary, you don't see the difference between popping a one day old character and popping a month old character. That is my point.

You were killed in your firth month of playing. So was everyone else. Being killed in your first month and being killed within a few hours of signing up for your first free trial are two completely different things, and should be treated that way.

EVE is a dangerous game. No one is safe, anywhere. I would argue that until a rookie is through the career missions at least, they should be off limits. That's all I am trying to say. There is a big difference between the month old rookie and the day old rookie.
Tepijo ntepreoccupa
La Rapida
#27 - 2015-07-07 13:44:19 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:

EVE is a dangerous game. No one is safe, anywhere. I would argue that until a rookie is through the career missions at least, they should be off limits. That's all I am trying to say. There is a big difference between the month old rookie and the day old rookie.


This is not, and could never be, in hands of players, as they have different behaviours. It can be accomplished from CCP only, by design (i.e. invulnerability period of time etc.).
Toxic Yaken
Slavers Union
Something Really Pretentious
#28 - 2015-07-07 13:49:56 UTC
So if I make an alt and don't finish the career missions, I can be off limits? Sweet.

But seriously, the first time I ever played, I joined a corporation on my first day that was at war with Cannibal Kane. He caught me in a venture on autopilot and popped me immediately. He asked me if I was new, gave me some tips, and a sweet reimbursement of 5m. Other people might react differently, but better to lose something small earlier on to understand ships are only tools seriously diminishes the impact of losing one. I'm not going to go to rookie mission systems to kill them, but if one happens upon me...

Curator of the Wardec Project - Join our Discord to join the discussions about Wardecs
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#29 - 2015-07-07 14:00:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Petre en Thielles wrote:
In summary, you don't see the difference between popping a one day old character and popping a month old character. That is my point.
Our points are:

  • The newbie was in a player corp that was at war.
  • War targets are war targets, regardless of their age.
  • Nobody checks the character age of a war target before engaging, red is dead.
  • The corp that the newbie was a part of is responsible for taking care of their newbies, especially in times of war; something that they failed to do.


Quote:
You were killed in your firth month of playing. So was everyone else. Being killed in your first month and being killed within a few hours of signing up for your first free trial are two completely different things, and should be treated that way.
You should make it your mission in Eve to make sure that newbies are aware of the nature of Eve, and the dangers contained therein if you feel so strongly about it.

Quote:
EVE is a dangerous game. No one is safe, anywhere.
Correct, with very very few exceptions, and that includes newbies who join a corp that is at war.

Quote:
I would argue that until a rookie is through the career missions at least, they should be off limits.
They already are off-limits in the designated career agents mission systems and the SoE Arc start point; unless of course they've joined a corp that is at war while they're there.

Quote:
That's all I am trying to say. There is a big difference between the month old rookie and the day old rookie.
Many would argue that some people are rookies regardless of how long they've been playing.

TL;DR your entire point of view, in the context of this thread, appears to revolve around a much abused trope.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#30 - 2015-07-07 14:18:34 UTC
Think of the children arguments aren't just a trope, they're an established logical fallacy.

Is your point of view totally bizarre and nonsensical? Just make it about the children!

It should be noted also that new players aren't children, they're typically grown men who won't be emotionally devastated by having an Internet spaceship explode on them.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#31 - 2015-07-07 14:30:31 UTC
When I was driving taxi people were considered rookies for an entire year.
Why? It was considered to a reasonable amount of time for a driver to be exposed to the majority of the crap out there that they would at random be forced to deal with for the rest of their 'careers. It did NOT stop this crap from happening to them, in fact the sooner it happened to them the faster they learned. We had one guy who basically had almost everything that could possibly go wrong happen to him within a month. He ended up as my boss.

It's not about how old a character is that determines how well they can adapt, it's what happens to them in the time they've had up to now. If they survive hardship they are more likely to thrive than those who are left untouched.

Also. Screw the children. No kiddies here, man up or be eaten by the wolves. You step out into the black with someone's flag on your back and you represent them when that flag is contested. One day, one week, one month, one year, one decade... IT DOES NOT MATTER. You either pick up the gun and learn to fight, or get sent back to the rear where the tattered masses swell.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#32 - 2015-07-07 14:57:45 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
It should be noted also that new players aren't children, they're typically grown men who won't shouldn't be emotionally devastated by having an Internet spaceship explode on them.
FTFY, simply because some people never grow up.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#33 - 2015-07-07 16:21:52 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Yourmoney Mywallet wrote:

a) pop all the things. always.

b) if he's really a trunoob, pop him first then take the time to explain to him what happened. also tell him that his ceo will make up for his loss, because - well, that's what a corp is for, no?

c) but yeah - pop all the things.



dude, you do realize f*cking with actual newbies is not allowed by CCP, right? we can't complain about not getting enough players in the game and poor NPE and then pop one day old toons who don't understand the game yet. Go gank someone who at least knows what an afterburner is, for christ sake.

Gank, by all means, but don't be an a**hole about it to true newbies. If CCP finds out you are doing that, bad things will happen.

You think people join a spaceship shooting game to avoid spaceship shooting stuff? You think if you make it more boring they are more likely to stay?

Evil RatKid
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-07-07 16:28:58 UTC
Was just reading this thing...

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Attacked_in_Secure_Space

Wiki wrote:
In the universe of EVE, no space is 100% safe. It is vital for every player to realize this as soon as possible after starting playing the game.


So better to kill a one day old character than a month old character then Smile
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-07-07 20:44:49 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
.



Empty quoting because I am not interested in a 17 page conversation. You ignored the quote I gave by GM Homonoia.

"Again, spirit of the rule, not the letter. If you find yourself trying to figure out specifically where we draw the line you are obviously targeting rookies, which is NOT allowed. You decide to do this, you will find out where the line is when we warn you."

What, exactly do you think the GM meant by that?

Focus on "the spirit of the rule, not the letter"

That was exactly my point.


I do try to help as much as I can, but when a corp recruiter sits in a newbie system sending out convos with corp invites to two hour old players, do we then blame the two hour old player, or the corp recruiter (who is at war) for abusing a newbie?

I think if someone can't handle getting ganked, they don't belong in EVE, but for the fourth time, give them a day or two to settle in. Where's the line between teaching a rookie a trial by fire and just being an as*hole?
Marlin Spikes
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-07-07 21:13:49 UTC
Red is red. The line is thick and clear.

WE (Eve) should expect corporations to either train newbies or not recruit during wartime - scratch that...

Yes, corporations should ALWAYS recruit during wardecs. War-time is the perfect time to build your ranks with day-old toons. The most successful corporations and alliances have this practice written into their recruitment policies.

No matter how you slice this, the blame goes on the corporation. Train your newbies!

Bombers Rule!!!
Ahed Sten
#37 - 2015-07-07 23:13:08 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Stuff


Veers? Is that you?

Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-07-07 23:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Petre en Thielles
Ahed Sten wrote:


Veers? Is that you?



/sigh. reading and all that.

Apparently now "give rookies a day or two before ganking them" means "there should be permanent PvE only in EVE"

did you even read what I wrote?

take a step back and try again slugger.

EDIT: it's also somewhat hilarious how literally none of you pro-newbie ganking folks have said a word about the GM quote I gave. "If I avoid it, maybe it will go away!"
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#39 - 2015-07-07 23:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Empty quoting because I am not interested in a 17 page conversation. You ignored the quote I gave by GM Homonoia.

"Again, spirit of the rule, not the letter. If you find yourself trying to figure out specifically where we draw the line you are obviously targeting rookies, which is NOT allowed. You decide to do this, you will find out where the line is when we warn you."

What, exactly do you think the GM meant by that?

Focus on "the spirit of the rule, not the letter"

That was exactly my point.


I do try to help as much as I can, but when a corp recruiter sits in a newbie system sending out convos with corp invites to two hour old players, do we then blame the two hour old player, or the corp recruiter (who is at war) for abusing a newbie?

I think if someone can't handle getting ganked, they don't belong in EVE, but for the fourth time, give them a day or two to settle in. Where's the line between teaching a rookie a trial by fire and just being an as*hole?
You should try reading further, there was a very specific case raised in the thread that clarifies rookie system rules, and it's an exact match for this one.

GM Homonoia wrote:
And this is why we will not define what a rookie is. Once again, common sense; a rookie involves himself in a war, perhaps not so rookie anymore. Now, stop coming up with hypothetical situations and apply some common sense.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#40 - 2015-07-08 00:33:12 UTC
3 hour old alt, not wardec'd. 3 jumps from Jita. In a noobship. Cargo full of plex.

Shoot or naw?

Im a shooter. Can sort it out with ccp later. If need even be.

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.