These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Barrier to entry is time and expense of T2 stuff, not skill points
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Count of MonteCylon
Anti-Pirate Enforcement
#1 - 2015-07-07 11:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Count of MonteCylon
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#2 - 2015-07-07 11:36:44 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


Giving them more SP will make them more effective and allow them to be more competitive early on, you dont "have" to have T2 to PvP, in a small gang even a T1 frig with tackle can be useful, depending on where the extra SP is it can also make it much easier to fit a ship with modules, compare the fits of someone with no core fitting skills to someone with maxed base core fitting skills, i'm all for giving the new cannon fodder an easier time, we need more meatshields :P
Jenshae Chiroptera
#3 - 2015-07-07 11:38:55 UTC
Play on the test server and see an extreme there.
Then between that and this, draw where your conclusion takes us.

I'm sorry but ISK, fittings, etc all these "barriers" are obstacles to be over come, they are what gives the game some challenge.
There are a myriad of ways to create ISK with very minimal time. It might require that you spend one evening making the ISK and three spending it but that sacrifice of 1/4 of the time of an individual is far better than making the game dull for many more players.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#4 - 2015-07-07 11:39:48 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


Stop making excuses.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5 - 2015-07-07 11:41:28 UTC
First of all, I'm pretty sure you're approaching this from a purely solo perspective, in which case I found your problem right off the bat.

Secondly, this is a sandbox game. Yes, older players are going to be more established than you, with more resources at their disposal. That's working as intended.

Thirdly, T1 equipment is reasonably viable in many cases, particularly ship hulls(and stealth bombers). Module tiericide is working towards that goal with many module types as well.

So, besides griping, I really don't see what you are arguing for. Do you have some suggestion, or what?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-07-07 11:42:51 UTC
You want to "dominate" in pvp and think the major barrier to that is the cost of T2 modules? Good Lord, you got that going on bass ackward....

Let me try to explain:

The entry of all things PvP is the frigatte with all its variations. Solid fits can be built for 1 mil ISK (or even less). It is very simple to earn 20 - 30 mil ISK just by doing the Sisters Epic Arch, and a couple level 1 & 2 missions. Or (gasp) mine for a day.... This then buys you at least a dozend or so PvP ships, which you can welp without having to think twice. Also, EvE is primarily not a solo PvP game. Find friends or a corp and fly with them. the entry barrier for activities like Faction Warfare is suprisingly low (and good money can be made there as well).

SKILLPOINTS on the other hand, together with player skill make a HUGE difference in PvP. I would put my money on a competent player with very good skills flying a t1 ship, over a new player who flies an all faction or deadspace fit ship. Any time.


Fly dangerously,

B.
Count of MonteCylon
Anti-Pirate Enforcement
#7 - 2015-07-07 11:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Count of MonteCylon
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
First of all, I'm pretty sure you're approaching this from a purely solo perspective, in which case I found your problem right off the bat.

Secondly, this is a sandbox game. Yes, older players are going to be more established than you, with more resources at their disposal. That's working as intended.

Thirdly, T1 equipment is reasonably viable in many cases, particularly ship hulls(and stealth bombers). Module tiericide is working towards that goal with many module types as well.

So, besides griping, I really don't see what you are arguing for. Do you have some suggestion, or what?

This is a fair post and thank you for that :)

To give you a better impression of where I'm coming from let me tell you how I see it. As I imagine it, Eve started out without T2, T3, pirate or faction ships and mods. People would jump in and fight with each other.

After years of "power inflation" and literal inflation, people are seeing that not many people are jumping in and fighting. So they want to give us more SP. But that original state of the game (which I admit I am only imagining; I wasn't here back then) will not be achieved just by giving out more SP. You can decrease the SP element, it would still leave the cost element intact.

Insofar as there are players who think they "deserve" their advantages because they've been playing longer, that is the problem at heart and trying to compromise with people who think like that may be a mistake.

My radical solution would be to eliminate T2 ships and mods which have advantages instead of just differences and deflate the value of ISK in the economy.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-07-07 11:56:33 UTC
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Count of MonteCylon
Anti-Pirate Enforcement
#9 - 2015-07-07 11:59:37 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?

You are rambling, I am only commenting on a problem that has existed for awhile and that is beginning to be acknowledged. T2 et al should be different, not better, if what Eve wants is immediate access and enjoyment in the PvP game for new players. If what people want is to lord it over their juniors then Eve will decline and there are some indications that this is already happening, otherwise no one would be acknowledging the problem.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#10 - 2015-07-07 12:18:34 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?

You are rambling, I am only commenting on a problem that has existed for awhile and that is beginning to be acknowledged.

By whom?
Count of MonteCylon wrote:

T2 et al should be different, not better, if what Eve wants is immediate access and enjoyment in the PvP game for new players. If what people want is to lord it over their juniors then Eve will decline and there are some indications that this is already happening, otherwise no one would be acknowledging the problem.


If you look at T2 frigates and modules, the training time is not onerous and the requirements for the T2 ships and modules will involve training up the core skills which will still come in useful for T1 hulls. And by the time one is able to fly an assault frigate or interceptor, 20M ISK should be, if not small change, not breaking the bank.
Count of MonteCylon
Anti-Pirate Enforcement
#11 - 2015-07-07 12:19:30 UTC
CCP's mentality seems to be "not enough new people are jumping in and playing, so we created a T3 destroyer with 10 missile launchers." Instead of 10 missile launchers, transforming T3 things could just open up multiple roles to the same ship, that kind of mentality would make for a better game IMHO.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#12 - 2015-07-07 12:25:24 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
CCP's mentality seems to be "not enough new people are jumping in and playing, so we created a T3 destroyer with 10 missile launchers." Instead of 10 missile launchers, transforming T3 things could just open up multiple roles to the same ship, that kind of mentality would make for a better game IMHO.


The problem with "new people" is that they come into a situation having not been around to see how the past worked. The above post is a good example, because we have Tech3 Cruisers that were built along the same line of thinking. It just doesn't work (the whole "one ship, many roles BS), thus the T3 Destroyers are different, and DO work as intended..
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-07-07 13:03:39 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?

You are rambling, I am only commenting on a problem that has existed for awhile and that is beginning to be acknowledged. T2 et al should be different, not better, if what Eve wants is immediate access and enjoyment in the PvP game for new players. If what people want is to lord it over their juniors then Eve will decline and there are some indications that this is already happening, otherwise no one would be acknowledging the problem.

Where am I rambling? I asked two legitimate and important questions.

Why are you incapable of doing what thousands of others had no issue with? Why do you need it easier than all those before you? Why is there a change needed for something that never has been an issue for the vast majority of people?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-07-07 13:05:41 UTC
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-07-07 13:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Niriel Greez wrote:
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.

Why do they need it easier than tens of thousands of people who had no issues? And why do people keep using "more accessible" wrongly, when it's actually "faster to get gratification" ? Lowering skillpoint investments does not make anything more acceswible. It's still as easily acceswible as it was before. Adding skills to a queue is not complicated.

Wh this is about is faster gratification, not accessibility. Accessibility is about removing barriers and TIME is not a barrier.

This politically correct hogwash needs to end. People need to call them what they are.

So why do they need it easier than the tens of thousands before them? Big smile

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-07-07 13:16:09 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.


Why does T2 need to be easier?

If anything, the only T2 ship that could be made "easyer" are the one that are borderline useless before you skill them to IV because one of their bonus in on the T2 skill and it literally make or break the ship. The number of ship type in this situation is REALLY low.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-07-07 13:20:50 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


Stop making excuses.


Was just about to link to the same video. Suitonia has several other videos displaying what can be done with very young characters.

EVE PvP is more a game of rock-paper-scissors, than a game of raw stats. Just go out there and learn what you can engage!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#18 - 2015-07-07 13:23:00 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Why are you incapable of dealing with something tens of thousands did before you? Why do you need it easier than all of those who were successful before you?


This is actually a good question. "Lower the barriers" thinking is always flawed because it's based on the false idea that people are somehow 'held back' by something and if you just get rid of that, things will be great.

What really happens is that the people who were held back by some barrier will just find a way to be held back by another imaginary barrier. The barrier isn't the thing stopping them , it's THEM and their mentality. People who want to do something can't be held back by barriers in the 1st place, they don't see things as barriers, they see them as challenges to be overcome.

IMHO it's dumb for a company like CCP to try to cater to people who can't even do the very simple things current players have done to learn and play the game. It's better to expend the effort to find more people like us (current players) who don't need gameplay handouts to enjoy a game. Shame we can't talk real world politics in here, I'd have a field day with this kind of topic Big smile
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-07-07 13:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Of course it's a good question, you silly Lol but they need to answer it! SmileSmile

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2015-07-07 13:27:30 UTC
Your assessment sounds defeatist, but just in case you really want to talk about it, I have some thoughts.

You'll need to define "afford to lose." You also should define a rate of loss. It's not clear to me what you think is a fair rate of loss (PVP, but I'll just call it loss after assuming anything in PVP is lost).

For example, affording a loss could simply mean you have enough ISK to replace it. More qualified definitions could include being able to replace the ISK passively. Yes passive income sources would take a while.

How often would you want to

...nevermind. Just buy a PLEX, they're at 950 mil now.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
123Next pageLast page