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Making the game easier for newcomers

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Tyrell Armstrong
Free Space Project
#1 - 2015-07-07 02:54:53 UTC
In light of the upcoming possible changes for newcomers, here's my two cents.

As a fairly new player to EVE (I've had a subscription for a short while (~8.5m SP), but only been actively playing for a month or two now), here would be my suggestion to help reduce the learning curve for new players. When creating a new character, there should be an option on first-login or character creation where you can select your skill level - "I've never played", "I'm learning with an experienced friend" or "I'm a veteran / I know how to play EVE". The game could take you through tutorials based on your experience selection. "I'm new to eve" could take you on a more individual, solo-based tutorial. "I'm learning with a friend" Could instead let you roam free with a friend, but still give you plenty of useful hints/tips, as well as a slightly-guided tutorial. Something you can do with your friend, allowing your friend to explain the more in-depth mechanics of eve, while the game itself introduces you to the basic concepts. Optionally, there could even be some team objectives in the tutorials to allow you to play with your friend while learning. Selecting "I'm a veteran" or "I know how to play EVE" would disable tutorials, as you would select it when creating an alt, or a second, third, etc, toon. You would already know how to play the game if it's not your first account, generally speaking.
The tutorials could cover the following things (from a new player perspective, this is where I feel we could use the most help)


  • Movement: We don't need to be spoon-fed here, we're not fools. We just don't know the options. Double-clicking moves your through space, or click on something -> align to, approach, etc. In a quick, basic way go over the movement and basic interaction.
  • The Map: What is a system? How do you get between them? How does Autopilot work, and what are the drawbacks? How/when should I use it?
  • Security systems: Hi-Sec, Low-Sec, Null-Sec - what are they?
  • Security, Continued: What's the difference .5 and 1.0? what about .1 and .4? 0.0 and -1.0?
  • The in-game market, and it's unique properties. How do buy/sell orders work?
  • Common ways of earning ISK: Exploration, P.I., Mining, PvE, PvP, etc. Basically - *What do I DO in EVE?*
  • Factions: Which faction do I pick to start with? Each ones' strengths/weaknesses in an easier-to-read and understand fashion than Lore. Why should I pick Caldari over Minmatar?
  • Fitting a ship: What modules are common, what modules do, the advantages/disadvantages to certain weapons/tools. (MWD vs webifier vs Aux. Power core, etc)
  • Fitting, Continued: When certain modules, guns, damage types are useful in what situations. (Knowing about them is nice, but what damage types are most useful against Gursitas? Blood Raiders? Basically, how do I indentify what modules I'll need.
  • Skill queue: recommended skills to train (based on what method you plan on making ISK). This could be presented as you play. Also, how does the skill queue and SP work?
  • Skills, continued: A nice little intro into how to look for the skills you want would be great. I know there are cool skills that do X or Y, but what are they called? What if I'm looking for "mining skills" in general. A little tutorial explaining how to look through equipment you might want to use, checking the "requirements" tab, etc, and getting a little introduction into looking for the right skills would be great. Basically, how do I know not only what skills to use, but what skills do I look for, and how do I look for them?
  • Implants: What are they and why do I care about them? Which ones should I get? How important are they? (I still don't know how worth it is to have them, so I only have a couple right now)
  • Attributes: If they plan to stay, what does each one do? What is a remap? How often can you remap skills?
  • Ship classes: Just because you CAN fly a destroyer, doesn't mean you should. I definitely made the mistake of training my Spaceship Command skills in order to fly the coolest ship around, when really I couldn't fit it.
  • Player Agression: What causes it? What can I do with kill rights? What's a bounty? What sort of actions should I avoid?
  • Player Interaction: Eve is a player-centric game, more than any other game I know of. Instruct new players about common scams, and how to avoid them. Namely, teach about how player interaction is unique in EVE (Markets are with other players, not NPC's; scamming people, while unethical, is (to the best of my knowledge) allowed within the terms (to a degree)). Make sure they know that while the fun part about EVE is that you can be a scumbag, the bad part about EVE is that you can be a scumbag. PvP is very fun, as long as you're on the winning end.
  • Corps: The advantages/disadvantages of joining one, as well as the responsibility of starting your own (I started off by making my own because that would be soooo cool, but really it's a lot of work and management. Also fairly pointless without a decent group of people).



Extended post over on Reddit (not enough characters here on the forum to post the whole thing)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3cdnu5/in_light_of_the_upcoming_possible_changes_for/
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2 - 2015-07-07 03:02:00 UTC
Everyone on the EVE dev team appreciates well-thought-out feedback, but it's really best to post it in an existing feedback thread if there is one, to avoid a proliferation of threads on a single topic.

In this instance, I'd recommend posting here instead.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Tyrell Armstrong
Free Space Project
#3 - 2015-07-07 03:12:02 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Everyone on the EVE dev team appreciates well-thought-out feedback, but it's really best to post it in an existing feedback thread if there is one, to avoid a proliferation of threads on a single topic.

In this instance, I'd recommend posting here instead.

Whoops! I'm new around here so I didn't realize that was already a thing. Thanks!
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#4 - 2015-07-07 04:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
nvm

I dont really feel like getting suspended.

Good post
Joey Bags
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-07-07 04:44:28 UTC
+1
A well thought out post coming from a true newbie. Welcome.
And truly not to be snarky, a little into to the forums would be great too. There are newbie players that seem almost unawrae of the forums and their usefulness or in the case of GD, the utter lack of usefulness but a great time waster.

You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friends nose. Unless you podded them...and collected their corpse.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#6 - 2015-07-07 06:23:42 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
nvm

I dont really feel like getting suspended.

Good post

Well ..then.. could you explain to me whats a "toon"? I'm just so lost now hehe

But really, I haven't done the new-new-new tutorial, but essentially, OP, you are going to need to go to like youtube to get in-depth info on the game (tons and tons of help vids there). There is just no way for CCP to cover it all nor should they. Also the EVE University website is loaded with beginner tutorials/info. Then ask questions in the Q&A forum here if you are looking for forum help. EVE probably has one of the most helpful communities in mmorpg's. Best for CCP to leave it as such rather then too much scripted info for new players to digest.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2015-07-07 06:42:53 UTC
Tyrell Armstrong wrote:
Whoops! I'm new around here so I didn't realize that was already a thing. Thanks!

No problem, and thanks for writing up your thoughts!

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-07-07 08:14:24 UTC
Tyrell Armstrong wrote:
In light of the upcoming possible changes for newcomers, here's my two cents.

As a fairly new player to EVE (I've had a subscription for a short while (~8.5m SP), but only been actively playing for a month or two now), here would be my suggestion to help reduce the learning curve for new players. When creating a new character, there should be an option on first-login or character creation where you can select your skill level - "I've never played", "I'm learning with an experienced friend" or "I'm a veteran / I know how to play EVE". The game could take you through tutorials based on your experience selection. "I'm new to eve" could take you on a more individual, solo-based tutorial. "I'm learning with a friend" Could instead let you roam free with a friend, but still give you plenty of useful hints/tips, as well as a slightly-guided tutorial. Something you can do with your friend, allowing your friend to explain the more in-depth mechanics of eve, while the game itself introduces you to the basic concepts. Optionally, there could even be some team objectives in the tutorials to allow you to play with your friend while learning. Selecting "I'm a veteran" or "I know how to play EVE" would disable tutorials, as you would select it when creating an alt, or a second, third, etc, toon. You would already know how to play the game if it's not your first account, generally speaking.
The tutorials could cover the following things (from a new player perspective, this is where I feel we could use the most help)


  • Movement: We don't need to be spoon-fed here, we're not fools. We just don't know the options. Double-clicking moves your through space, or click on something -> align to, approach, etc. In a quick, basic way go over the movement and basic interaction.
  • The Map: What is a system? How do you get between them? How does Autopilot work, and what are the drawbacks? How/when should I use it?
  • Security systems: Hi-Sec, Low-Sec, Null-Sec - what are they?
  • Security, Continued: What's the difference .5 and 1.0? what about .1 and .4? 0.0 and -1.0?
  • The in-game market, and it's unique properties. How do buy/sell orders work?
  • Common ways of earning ISK: Exploration, P.I., Mining, PvE, PvP, etc. Basically - *What do I DO in EVE?*
  • Factions: Which faction do I pick to start with? Each ones' strengths/weaknesses in an easier-to-read and understand fashion than Lore. Why should I pick Caldari over Minmatar?
  • Fitting a ship: What modules are common, what modules do, the advantages/disadvantages to certain weapons/tools. (MWD vs webifier vs Aux. Power core, etc)
  • Fitting, Continued: When certain modules, guns, damage types are useful in what situations. (Knowing about them is nice, but what damage types are most useful against Gursitas? Blood Raiders? Basically, how do I indentify what modules I'll need.
  • Skill queue: recommended skills to train (based on what method you plan on making ISK). This could be presented as you play. Also, how does the skill queue and SP work?
  • Skills, continued: A nice little intro into how to look for the skills you want would be great. I know there are cool skills that do X or Y, but what are they called? What if I'm looking for "mining skills" in general. A little tutorial explaining how to look through equipment you might want to use, checking the "requirements" tab, etc, and getting a little introduction into looking for the right skills would be great. Basically, how do I know not only what skills to use, but what skills do I look for, and how do I look for them?
  • Implants: What are they and why do I care about them? Which ones should I get? How important are they? (I still don't know how worth it is to have them, so I only have a couple right now)
  • Attributes: If they plan to stay, what does each one do? What is a remap? How often can you remap skills?
  • Ship classes: Just because you CAN fly a destroyer, doesn't mean you should. I definitely made the mistake of training my Spaceship Command skills in order to fly the coolest ship around, when really I couldn't fit it.
  • Player Agression: What causes it? What can I do with kill rights? What's a bounty? What sort of actions should I avoid?
  • Player Interaction: Eve is a player-centric game, more than any other game I know of. Instruct new players about common scams, and how to avoid them. Namely, teach about how player interaction is unique in EVE (Markets are with other players, not NPC's; scamming people, while unethical, is (to the best of my knowledge) allowed within the terms (to a degree)). Make sure they know that while the fun part about EVE is that you can be a scumbag, the bad part about EVE is that you can be a scumbag. PvP is very fun, as long as you're on the winning end.
  • Corps: The advantages/disadvantages of joining one, as well as the responsibility of starting your own (I started off by making my own because that would be soooo cool, but really it's a lot of work and management. Also fairly pointless without a decent group of people).



Extended post over on Reddit (not enough characters here on the forum to post the whole thing)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3cdnu5/in_light_of_the_upcoming_possible_changes_for/



You don't even realize there's a thing called search engine, Google, that helps you answer most questions. Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#9 - 2015-07-07 08:56:27 UTC
I don't know. Maybe it's just me. But before I decided to leave my wow friends behind for good and switch to EVE, I did a little research. So I could have answered most of the questions above before even creating my trial account.

A few things turned out to be a little different than imagined, but that was a minor inconvenience if at all.

While one can argue about the right amount of handholding in a game like EVE, my personal opinion is, that there's already way too much of it.

EVE is a somewhat more complex game than others by design, which is one of its outstanding features. You do have to make a minimum effort to get into it. Whatever CCP does, someone will deem it insufficient.

Still +1 to OP for a good post in GD.

Remove standings and insurance.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-07-07 09:10:42 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
I don't know. Maybe it's just me. But before I decided to leave my wow friends behind for good and switch to EVE, I did a little research. So I could have answered most of the questions above before even creating my trial account.

A few things turned out to be a little different than imagined, but that was a minor inconvenience if at all.

While one can argue about the right amount of handholding in a game like EVE, my personal opinion is, that there's already way too much of it.

EVE is a somewhat more complex game than others by design, which is one of its outstanding features. You do have to make a minimum effort to get into it. Whatever CCP does, someone will deem it insufficient.

Still +1 to OP for a good post in GD.

People who struggle with what literally tens of thousands of others had no issue with. There will always be someone even more dumb who wants it even easier or in misleading, politically correct terms: "more accessible".

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#11 - 2015-07-07 09:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: pushdogg
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
I don't know. Maybe it's just me. But before I decided to leave my wow friends behind for good and switch to EVE, I did a little research. So I could have answered most of the questions above before even creating my trial account.

A few things turned out to be a little different than imagined, but that was a minor inconvenience if at all.

While one can argue about the right amount of handholding in a game like EVE, my personal opinion is, that there's already way too much of it.

EVE is a somewhat more complex game than others by design, which is one of its outstanding features. You do have to make a minimum effort to get into it. Whatever CCP does, someone will deem it insufficient.

Still +1 to OP for a good post in GD.

People who struggle with what literally tens of thousands of others had no issue with. There will always be someone even more dumb who wants it even easier or in misleading, politically correct terms: "more accessible".


cynical trolls are cynical.....to what do we owe this cynicism? hard time learning the game?

edit: ill bet it is some ill will towards who taught you....
Tyler Startide
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-07-07 09:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyler Startide
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:

You don't even realize there's a thing called search engine, Google, that helps you answer most questions. Lol


You're right, but there's nothing wrong with a game teaching a new player how to play Blink

@Tyrell Armstrong: I think those are great ideas! On the other hand the existing tutorial + the career agents (which I think are also part of the tutorial) take a new player 1-2 days, maybe even longer depending on the time that's available to the new player to play eve.
And I think there are already people who get scared away by the length of the current tutorial. Adding your lessons which are mostly theory lessons (much reading and storing a ton of information you might not be able to quite comprehend yet) might scare even more noobs away :/

I agree that new player should be thought those things.. But it's not that easy to do without the new players getting overwhelmed. Maybe it would be good if those lessons aren't forced onto the new player but that there's a (context) help system where (new) players could read about certain aspects of the game. Something like a (minimal) ingame wiki for the basic aspects of the game.

I know there's Google and a couple eve wikis out there. But for most people it's probably more convinient if it's an ingame feature. The tutorial should tell the new player about this and encourage him to use this whenever he doesn't understand something. The player won't get this feeling of helplessness and frustration if he doesn't understand something about the game but he will be confident to look it up in his "smart book of space help" Big smile

I know this is just an ingame wiki and using google and eve wikis will get you those informations as well (maybe even better), but
it's not about the information itself but it's a psychological thing - the player feels safe. ALT-Tabbing the game, opening the browser and searching for something in google is far more tedious. You'll get tons of search results and maybe some people don't even know what they have to search for in order to get the answer they need.

Context sensitive help would make this even better. For example a right click on the security number of a system would create a popup menu with a button "Explain this!" (or something like this) which would open the ingame wiki page for security numbers where the concept of highsec/lowsec/nullsec is explained and how lesser security numbers equal to longer response times of concord in highsec and so on.

All those things you've listed are things eve players need to know/learn at some point. But forcing all those information on the player right from the start would probably too much.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-07-07 10:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Wrong or right don't matter and are subjective. What matters is that one can use google. One should be able to think about using google. People who fail at gathering information themselves will always be dependent on others and really aren't the best type of people to play this game. Convinience? L7azyness! There will always be someone even dumber who needs it even easier. It ends in a downward spiral.

Answer this: When tens of thousands of people have no issue, what 's wrong with those who need it easier?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#14 - 2015-07-07 10:12:53 UTC
Tyler Startide wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:

You don't even realize there's a thing called search engine, Google, that helps you answer most questions. Lol


You're right, but there's nothing wrong with a game teaching a new player how to play Blink

@Tyrell Armstrong: I think those are great ideas! On the other hand the existing tutorial + the career agents (which I think are also part of the tutorial) take a new player 1-2 days, maybe even longer depending on the time that's available to the new player to play eve.
And I think there are already people who get scared away by the length of the current tutorial. Adding your lessons which are mostly theory lessons (much reading and storing a ton of information you might not be able to quite comprehend yet) might scare even more noobs away :/

I agree that new player should be thought those things.. But it's not that easy to do without the new players getting overwhelmed. Maybe it would be good if those lessons aren't forced onto the new player but that there's a (context) help system where (new) players could read about certain aspects of the game. Something like a (minimal) ingame wiki for the basic aspects of the game.

I know there's Google and a couple eve wikis out there. But for most people it's probably more convinient if it's an ingame feature. The tutorial should tell the new player about this and encourage him to use this whenever he doesn't understand something. The player won't get this feeling of helplessness and frustration if he doesn't understand something about the game but he will be confident to look it up in his "smart book of space help" Big smile

I know this is just an ingame wiki and using google and eve wikis will get you those informations as well (maybe even better), but
it's not about the information itself but it's a psychological thing - the player feels safe. ALT-Tabbing the game, opening the browser and searching for something in google is far more tedious. You'll get tons of search results and maybe some people don't even know what they have to search for in order to get the answer they need.

Context sensitive help would make this even better. For example a right click on the security number of a system would create a popup menu with a button "Explain this!" (or something like this) which would open the ingame wiki page for security numbers where the concept of highsec/lowsec/nullsec is explained and how lesser security numbers equal to longer response times of concord in highsec and so on.

All those things you've listed are things eve players need to know/learn at some point. But forcing all those information on the player right from the start would probably too much.

Problem is, that a lot of that information is outdated. Including that delivered by CCP. The situation here is worse than in other games. A new player is not able to find out easily, whether a certain source is outdated or not. This is something CCP really should address. More than the NPE imo.

Remove standings and insurance.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#15 - 2015-07-07 10:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Tyler Startide wrote:
ALT-Tabbing the game, opening the browser and searching for something in google is far more tedious.


Alt-tab the game to use a web browser? er there is one in the game client already.
Top result in google: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/In_game_browser
Come on people.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Count of MonteCylon
Anti-Pirate Enforcement
#16 - 2015-07-07 11:26:05 UTC
Unfortunately, the problem is not really in skill points acquired but in the time and also the expense of fitting and using T2 modules effectively. I think I gave up on Eve PvP back when someone in the "T1 ships only" area of FW did 750 DPS to me with a destroyer and my destroyer was putting out about 50 DPS. Giving me more skill points to begin with wouldn't meaningfully shrink that gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fit ships like that and if I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it even after years of playing.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12
IcyMind Arierep
Elysian Technologies Enclave
Fraternity.
#17 - 2015-07-07 14:33:45 UTC
If we had a place where players can contribute and explain how things works that would be great. Do you imagine like a board, wiki, or player discussion area, where all aspects of the game are explain in details with links to other pages with more info...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#18 - 2015-07-07 14:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
The idea that easier = better is false. Most of us here started when the game was harder, and we're still here. CCP has made the game "more accessible" year after year but instead of the expected flood of new blood, all we see is even more people saying "the game needs to be more accessible". People climate they want accessibility, when in fact what they want is a challenge (else they would not be playing a GAME). The disconnect is that people don't actually know what they want. Give people what the need, not what they 'want'.

If CCP turned EVE into a game where all you had to do was log in and the game plays itself, someone would STILL claim they game is not accessible enough because typing in a password and pressing enter costs a human body 2 calories, and the industry standard is no more that 1 calorie expenditure...
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-07-07 15:03:42 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
Unfortunately, the problem is not really in skill points acquired but in the time and also the expense of fitting and using T2 modules effectively. I think I gave up on Eve PvP back when someone in the "T1 ships only" area of FW did 750 DPS to me with a destroyer and my destroyer was putting out about 50 DPS. Giving me more skill points to begin with wouldn't meaningfully shrink that gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fit ships like that and if I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it even after years of playing.

How about we get that battle report minus the hyperbole?

Grrr.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-07-07 15:05:37 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
Unfortunately, the problem is not really in skill points acquired but in the time and also the expense of fitting and using T2 modules effectively. I think I gave up on Eve PvP back when someone in the "T1 ships only" area of FW did 750 DPS to me with a destroyer and my destroyer was putting out about 50 DPS. Giving me more skill points to begin with wouldn't meaningfully shrink that gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fit ships like that and if I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it even after years of playing.

How did everyone deal with that before you? Why hasn't this ever been an issue for everyone else?

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
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