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Capital & Super Rebalance Suggestions

First post
Author
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#21 - 2015-07-06 21:42:28 UTC
Too many changes and suggestions on one single thread. We need to break this up. I like some of the ideas and changes but I am not so hot on some of the others like space harpoon.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#22 - 2015-07-06 22:14:03 UTC
Carriers:

Don't split carriers into two varieties. Nerf the Slowcat doctrine by moving the +1 drone per level bonus of the hull into the Drone Control highslot. Each module then gives +2 drones. Combat refitting isn't going to be prevalent because they're capital sized modules.

This also nerfs ratting carriers, but only their ability to fend off light tackle.

Dreadnoughts:

Instead of making Siege mode the distinction between shooting caps and subs, change the stats on both long- and short-range guns so that long-range guns are anti-capital and shorts are anti-sub. They won't be 'long-range' or 'short-range' any more, but this will require dread pilots to commit to a role before entering the field.



General:

I'd like to see jump drives moved to a highslot module. Now that caps can take gates, a jump drive isn't explicitly needed to move about. The ability to cyno directly into, or out of, a fight should require a sacrifice on combat effectiveness.

PS: **** yes, space harpoons.
D3N3R0TH
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-07-06 23:41:06 UTC
Supercarriers don't need a tweak they need a new role.

Players should be able to dock ships inside supercarriers, like they would if they were docking in a station. When docked they would just see the outside of the Super. Supercarriers should then be able to jump to a cyno with players docked inside. Unlike a titan bridge which does not require an asset to be committed to the battle, players that enter the field via a Supercarrier jump "do not" gain jump fatigue - however the Supercarrier pilot does gain fatigue. To make this viable the size of the fleet hanger and ship maintenance bay need to be increased. Supercarriers also need to be given the role of ON GRID boosters which should be far superior to the current booster ships (which need to be nerfed because off grid boosting is stupid and Command ships are too **** to actually be effective on the battlefield - they need a new role but that's a different topic).
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2015-07-07 00:16:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Holy crap, every suggestion so far has been the least thoughtout I've ever read. God I hope fozzie doesn't take ideas from you guys this is stupid.

I can't even begin to see how many counter intuitive things I've read so far but its like a politicians wet dream.

Reducing the cost of super hulls from 15b to 3-5? why even have a regular carrier? If I'm gonna blow 3 billion on a nice chimera hull why not blow 3 billion on the wyvern, theres literally no point to a regular carrier at that point.

Why even have a space harpoon? we already have this with bubbles and HIC points

Its like Manfred literally has zero experience with capitals with all these stupid changes.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#25 - 2015-07-07 00:23:31 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Holy crap, every suggestion so far has been the least thoughtout I've ever read. God I hope fozzie doesn't take ideas from you guys this is stupid.

I can't even begin to see how many counter intuitive things I've read so far but its like a politicians wet dream.

Reducing the cost of super hulls from 15b to 3-5? why even have a regular carrier? If I'm gonna blow 3 billion on a nice chimera hull why not blow 3 billion on the wyvern, theres literally no point to a regular carrier at that point.

Why even have a space harpoon? we already have this with bubbles and HIC points

Its like Manfred literally has zero experience with capitals with all these stupid changes.

You should elaborate on why the suggestions are bad.

PS: There's no need for the excessive use of even. You're not a white girl.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-07-07 00:28:17 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Holy crap, every suggestion so far has been the least thoughtout I've ever read. God I hope fozzie doesn't take ideas from you guys this is stupid.

I can't even begin to see how many counter intuitive things I've read so far but its like a politicians wet dream.

Reducing the cost of super hulls from 15b to 3-5? why even have a regular carrier? If I'm gonna blow 3 billion on a nice chimera hull why not blow 3 billion on the wyvern, theres literally no point to a regular carrier at that point.

Why even have a space harpoon? we already have this with bubbles and HIC points

Its like Manfred literally has zero experience with capitals with all these stupid changes.

You should elaborate on why the suggestions are bad.

PS: There's no need for the excessive use of even. You're not a white girl.


He has nothing to elaborate on why he even proposed this! Why reduce the cost of Super hulls, why reduce the cost of titans? why introduce all this categorical nonsense with all the carrier bonuses? why introduce all this extra SMA/CHA space and stuff.

Its extremely obfuscating and theres nothing in here beyond these few cherry picked good things that might be useful but none of this fixes capitals.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#27 - 2015-07-07 00:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawketsled
Why doesn't it fix capitals? You didn't answer my question.

[EDIT] God damn phone ate my post. [EDIT] ATE, not at. FFFF.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-07-07 00:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Holy crap, every suggestion so far has been the least thoughtout I've ever read. God I hope fozzie doesn't take ideas from you guys this is stupid.


I'd agree that Manfred Sidious doesn't have all of the best ideas, but what he put in the OP isn't all bad, some of it is gold. And the rest of the thread seems to have even better ideas. Of course, as with any thread, not all of the ideas in it are good. But I'm actually impressed with this one.

I think you should actually read the thread before you criticize it.



Rawketsled wrote:
Why doesn't it fix capitals? You didn't answer my question.

Actually, he did. He pointed out that the burden of proof is on Manfred Sideous to first explain why these ideas are any good. It's a decent point, the OP hasn't offered much in the way of in-depth explanation of how he expects the proposed changes to fix the game.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Lt Shard
Team Pizza
Good at this Game
#29 - 2015-07-07 00:51:30 UTC
what the ****

Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#30 - 2015-07-07 00:53:14 UTC
You're right there is a burden of proof on Manny, but that doesn't mean the ideas are automatically bad.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-07-07 01:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Holy crap, every suggestion so far has been the least thoughtout I've ever read. God I hope fozzie doesn't take ideas from you guys this is stupid.


I'd agree that Manfred Sidious doesn't have all of the best ideas, but what he put in the OP isn't all bad, some of it is gold. And the rest of the thread seems to have even better ideas. Of course, as with any thread, not all of the ideas in it are good. But I'm actually impressed with this one.

I think you should actually read the thread before you criticize it.

I did read the thread

there was no reason to any of the suggestion he posted. He just made it without any elaboration.

He wants to increase fighter EHP when they already got a huge buff after CCP just exposed Fighters to Drone skills such as Drone Durability, which already gives them a huge tank buff. Those fighters already had cruiser tanks.

He wants to remove the Carrier's ability to get a +1 to drone controls per level then put it into Drone Control units. Why? what is the point and how does that fix carriers at all? Theres no point, he just moved it from one place to another and nothing changes.

He wants to split carriers into two types of basically a DPS and a Logistics carrier, why? theres no real point of this at all, no justification, no reason why he suggested this.

He wants to basically cut dread DPS in half as if they were OP or something, then give a tracking bonus to them so they can hit subcaps? did/does he not read anything on zkillboard on the loads of dreads that have killed tons and tons of subcaps? Does he not understand the turret formula for what constitutes a hit? Probably not because of this.

He wants to increase fighter EHP when they already got a huge buff after CCP just exposed Fighters to Drone skills such as Drone Durability, which already gives them a huge tank buff. Those fighters already had cruiser tanks. With this he wants drone control units to aide to their EHP again, but with no justification, because fighters are apparently easy to kill or something. Then he just randomly says "buff fighter EHP" for no reason at all.

He says "Can the nidhoggur not be bad?" yet he's never flown one or sounds like hes never thought of their purpose. The nidhoggur is used as a great suicide triage carrier because of the massive bonus it gets to rep for armor and shield. Its a great WH carrier BECAUSE it can do both of these.

He wants to reduce the cost of the supers and titans, but didn't give a reason why. I already stated above why this was a stupid idea, it doesn't give them a purpose, it just makes it that if I was going to fly a carrier I might as well fly a super, who cares about. Why fly a 1b+2b fitting chimera when I can fly a Wyvern for double the price that gets 10 times the tank, thrice the DPS at least and is immune to ewar all around?

He suggest there be a "space harpoon" but seems to have ignored the purpose of Interdictors and Heavy Interdictors. This module is redundant and gives no purpose to supers at all but to pin other supers, but there are significantly cheaper options than using that and those are far cheaper too.

He wants to reduce the cost of Titans to 20b, but gave no reason, wants to bring back AOE DD but didn't give a reason but this "push or pull" thing which is largely useless. For the same reason for supers, why even reduce the cost of Hulls? we already have loads of supers flying around now, PL has SO MANY supers that they don't have enough pilots to fly them.

I don't even care about the rorqual.

So When you said "read the whole thread" why even bother? because all of these suggestions are either useless, redundant or completely pointless to the capitals, it doesn't fix anything with the capitals. Why ask me to elaborate why these ideas are bad when there isn't even a reason to post these ideas that themselves have no explanation to them anyway?
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-07-07 01:01:38 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
You're right there is a burden of proof on Manny, but that doesn't mean the ideas are automatically bad.

Yea actually that does

The moment I have to ask why and there wasn't a reason provided automatically disregards it as a valid idea. It doesn't raise any points to the reason why they'd post so why even consider it?

Great ideas need great evidence otherwise what are they?
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#33 - 2015-07-07 01:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Neckbeard Nolyfe
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Capital & Super Rebalance Suggestions

Prologue:




So dreads become useless marauders with a bit more ehp.
Supers become cheaper than dreads.
Titans become jedis with force.

So 'logistic carreirs' (lets call them archons for logi and clearing dictors/hics, and many 'jedi titans' (lets call them buses and tars) to use aoe dd for clearing rest of the support.
So we combine archons and spam of super cheap titans with aoe dd's, what do we get? (lets say 300 archons and 100-150 bus/tar's)

Nice to see that your ideas aren't completely biased mr rekking ball creator guy.

Oh and lets not forget about wh space.
Sleepers are battleships.
One can have fun dealing 2k dps per dread to kill them.

Lets not forget the importance of dreads in pvp in wh space.
How they are used as force multipliers for small/medium/big groups alike.
The amount of fights won/lost due to dreads being able to shoot subcaps and caps alike.
And more importantly, how dreads can only do massive amounts of dps while in siege, when they are the most vulnerable in their 5min cycles, allowing lower dps gangs to effectively kill them before they come out of siege and get reps and cap from his triage/pantheon friend/s.

One can only hope that CCP will not seriously consider these dumb biased ideas.

~lvl 60 paladin~

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#34 - 2015-07-07 01:04:46 UTC
I know this won't be popular but I would like to see supers and titans stay roughly the same price but have an added ongoing monthly maintenance requirement, preferably in components new industry-derived items. Think of it as servicing your ship.

If balanced correctly it could make them much harder to maintain in large numbers as originally intended by CCP. It would also effectively decrease the value of these ships sitting on offline accounts which are subbed only when required. It would make it much harder to stockpile these ships.

For current pilots, increase insurance payouts for a few months to let them cash out if they choose.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-07-07 01:06:47 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I know this won't be popular but I would like to see supers and titans stay roughly the same price but have an added ongoing monthly maintenance requirement, preferably in components new industry-derived items. Think of it as servicing your ship.

If balanced correctly it could make them much harder to maintain in large numbers as originally intended by CCP. It would also effectively decrease the value of these ships sitting on offline accounts which are subbed only when required. It would make it much harder to stockpile these ships.

For current pilots, increase insurance payouts for a few months to let them cash out if they choose.


The supers already come with a huge monthly price, the POS they live in costs every single month to fuel. Where do you think they store these things?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2015-07-07 01:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Capital & Super Rebalance Suggestions

Prologue:




So dreads become useless marauders with a bit more ehp.
Supers become cheaper than dreads.
Titans become jedis with force.

So 'logistic carreirs' (lets call them archons for logi and clearing dictors/hics, and many 'jedi titans' (lets call them buses and tars) to use aoe dd for clearing rest of the support.
So we combine archons and spam of super cheap titans with aoe dd's, what do we get? (lets say 300 archons and 100-150 bus/tar's)

Nice to see that your ideas aren't completely biased mr rekking ball creator guy.

Oh and lets not forget about wh space.
Sleepers are battleships.
One can have fun dealing 2k dps per dread to kill them.

Lets not forget the importance of dreads in pvp in wh space.
How they are used as force multipliers for small/medium/big groups alike.
The amount of fights won/lost due to dreads being able to shoot subcaps and caps alike.
And more importantly, how dreads can only do massive amounts of dps while in siege, when they are the most vulnerable in their 5min cycles, allowing lower dps gangs to effectively kill them before they come out of siege and get reps and cap from his triage/pantheon friend/s.

One can only hope that CCP will not seriously consider these dumb biased ideas.
reading comprehension < shiptoasting
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-07-07 01:20:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
continuing post #8
Numbers, for those of you who prefer these:


All capital weapons: +300% damage, +100% tracking

Siege Module I: +100% damage (instead of +700%)
Siege Module II: +135% damage (instead of +840%)
Both siege modules: -50% tracking

new bonuses for Titans:
skill bonus: 15% bonus to weapon damage per level
role bonus: 50% more weapon damage and 60% less tracking


And now here's how my proposed values compare to what we currently have:
DPS of Dreadnought in siege: no change
Tracking of Dreadnought in siege: no change
DPS of Dreadnought out of siege: +300%
Tracking of Dreadnought out of siege: +100%
DPS of Titan vs current value (with Titan skill at 3): +117.5%
DPS of Titan vs current value (with Titan skill at 5): +75%
DPS of Titan vs Dreadnought (current ratio): -10% (36/40)
DPS of Titan vs Dreadnought (my proposal): +57.5% (63/40)
Tracking of Titan vs current value: -20%



Titans already do reduced DPS against Dreadnoughts, its in the description of the titans themselves, this was changed back in Inferno patch.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-escalation-to-inferno
More than 3 years ago.

Your suggestion doesn't fix or change anything but makes titans track worse, and every titan gets a different bonus at that. Dreads already had their Siege penalty removed, theres no reason to put it back on.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2015-07-07 01:31:55 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
continuing post #8
Numbers, for those of you who prefer these:


All capital weapons: +300% damage, +100% tracking

Siege Module I: +100% damage (instead of +700%)
Siege Module II: +135% damage (instead of +840%)
Both siege modules: -50% tracking

new bonuses for Titans:
skill bonus: 15% bonus to weapon damage per level
role bonus: 50% more weapon damage and 60% less tracking


And now here's how my proposed values compare to what we currently have:
DPS of Dreadnought in siege: no change
Tracking of Dreadnought in siege: no change
DPS of Dreadnought out of siege: +300%
Tracking of Dreadnought out of siege: +100%
DPS of Titan vs current value (with Titan skill at 3): +117.5%
DPS of Titan vs current value (with Titan skill at 5): +75%
DPS of Titan vs Dreadnought (current ratio): -10% (36/40)
DPS of Titan vs Dreadnought (my proposal): +57.5% (63/40)
Tracking of Titan vs current value: -20%



Titans already do reduced DPS against Dreadnoughts, its in the description of the titans themselves, this was changed back in Inferno patch.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=postmessage&t=433201&f=270&q=5868150

More than 3 years ago.

Your suggestion doesn't fix or change anything but makes titans track worse, and every titan gets a different bonus at that. Dreads already had their Siege penalty removed, theres no reason to put it back on.
that link, goes to a reply page?
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2015-07-07 01:32:36 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
continuing post #8
Numbers, for those of you who prefer these:


All capital weapons: +300% damage, +100% tracking

Siege Module I: +100% damage (instead of +700%)
Siege Module II: +135% damage (instead of +840%)
Both siege modules: -50% tracking

new bonuses for Titans:
skill bonus: 15% bonus to weapon damage per level
role bonus: 50% more weapon damage and 60% less tracking


And now here's how my proposed values compare to what we currently have:
DPS of Dreadnought in siege: no change
Tracking of Dreadnought in siege: no change
DPS of Dreadnought out of siege: +300%
Tracking of Dreadnought out of siege: +100%
DPS of Titan vs current value (with Titan skill at 3): +117.5%
DPS of Titan vs current value (with Titan skill at 5): +75%
DPS of Titan vs Dreadnought (current ratio): -10% (36/40)
DPS of Titan vs Dreadnought (my proposal): +57.5% (63/40)
Tracking of Titan vs current value: -20%



Titans already do reduced DPS against Dreadnoughts, its in the description of the titans themselves, this was changed back in Inferno patch.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=postmessage&t=433201&f=270&q=5868150

More than 3 years ago.

Your suggestion doesn't fix or change anything but makes titans track worse, and every titan gets a different bonus at that. Dreads already had their Siege penalty removed, theres no reason to put it back on.
that link, goes to a reply page?


didn't copy to my clip board

http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-escalation-to-inferno
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#40 - 2015-07-07 01:34:56 UTC
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote:
Zappity wrote:
I know this won't be popular but I would like to see supers and titans stay roughly the same price but have an added ongoing monthly maintenance requirement, preferably in components new industry-derived items. Think of it as servicing your ship.

If balanced correctly it could make them much harder to maintain in large numbers as originally intended by CCP. It would also effectively decrease the value of these ships sitting on offline accounts which are subbed only when required. It would make it much harder to stockpile these ships.

For current pilots, increase insurance payouts for a few months to let them cash out if they choose.


The supers already come with a huge monthly price, the POS they live in costs every single month to fuel. Where do you think they store these things?

A POS is not a huge monthly price. What - 5 or 6 B a year? I could support dozens of them and I'm just a single player. Maybe ten times that amount would be better.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

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