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TIme for LP to go away: introducing Shares

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Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#61 - 2015-07-06 06:36:58 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Loyalty Points are just a form of currency - they are company scrip. Just like coal companies used to pay coal miners, with the intent of keeping them dependent on the coal company.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

The idea makes perfect sense from the point of view of the Corporations and from CCP as a developer. Accept that, and move on.

Absolutely not. I refuse to accept that this is the best way to handle additional mission rewards that create an isk sink. The benefits of the Share system are incredible when compared to the LP system. It opens up dozens of avenues for players to expand their gameplay potential. It makes the Eve economy that much more efficient. It will also increase isk sinks in game. It is nothing but a win for Eve.


Riot Girl wrote:
If LP becomes destructible, it will lead to inflation in the market for faction items. I'd rather see them stay cheap.

I predict the exact opposite will happen. Right now I have little doubt that there are billions of LP stored in wallets all over Eve. All of that sat on LP will depress prices until it consumed. On top of that the buying and selling of Shares will likely lower the price of each Share because the market will find an equilibrium between supply and demand. If too many shares are produced prices will fall. If too few shares are produced then the price will rise and missions runners will likely shift to those missions because they pay out more. Which in turn will create more shares and lower the share price. I doubt faction item prices will rise. Usually when the free markets get their fingers in something prices fall.

Nicola Romanoff wrote:
The ability to delete LP that you dont want. Ill admit it may be a little OCD but when I look at my LP for various corps there are some for places I may never do missions for again, either allow us to delete them or have something really cheap (for 1LP) in a store so we can get rid of them that way.

Shares will grant you this ability. Trade those last few share vouchers for physical shares, sell the physical shares. You win.



There is no sound argument against this man's proposal.

Everything you state make's perfect sense, and is entirely practical considering a free market economy.

Sounds like we have some socialists in our midst.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#62 - 2015-07-06 06:38:42 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
I hate market traders. They are the only capsuleers that you cannot shoot for what they are doing.


The free market takes care of all of this.

It's simple economics.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#63 - 2015-07-06 06:40:28 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
when you crack all the mirriors and blow away the smoke all this does is take a straightforward game mechanic and make it obtuse.

-1

Which means CONGRATULATIONS!

CCP lives for this kind of obtuse crap so i fully expect them to implement it in the next week or so.



Uhh....what the **** are you talking about?

Stupidity at it's finest.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#64 - 2015-07-06 06:46:31 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Quote:
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
- Merle Travis, Sixteen Tons


That is Loyalty Points in a nutshell. Rather than paying you in ISK, which is readily transferable and accepted everywhere, Eve corporations pay out a large percentage of their rewards in scrip, which is redeemable only at the company store. Turning LP into stock shares, or some other liquid asset, completely undercuts the whole reason that these huge powerful corporations have to issue those Loyalty Points.

The whole point is to pay you non-taxable income which is hard to transfer, hard to aggregate, and hard to liquidate.

Why would Eve corporations want to give capsuleers, who are mere freelance contractors, shares in the company? Or let Demi-gods have even more power and autonomy?


Sure, but what company would pay you in "loyalty" without giving you any tangible benefit other than "earn enough points and you can spend isk etc for this item."

In any reasonable partnership, you would not simply be able to purchase an item, you would be an incredibly valued member (at the higher levels), granting you access to everything that corporation could reasonably grant you access to. This would be wealth, technology, influence, etc etc etc.

LP is lame. This man's suggestion is phenomenal.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#65 - 2015-07-06 11:46:11 UTC
There wouldnt be a way to preserve it without keeping large ticket items that could only be redeemed with vouchers rather than shares.

I thought about giving increasing amounts of shares for larger voucher redemptions. However, that means the problem flips to the opposite side and make redeeming and selling small amounts of shares give you a loss.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#66 - 2015-07-06 13:29:13 UTC
Phaade wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Quote:
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
- Merle Travis, Sixteen Tons


That is Loyalty Points in a nutshell. Rather than paying you in ISK, which is readily transferable and accepted everywhere, Eve corporations pay out a large percentage of their rewards in scrip, which is redeemable only at the company store. Turning LP into stock shares, or some other liquid asset, completely undercuts the whole reason that these huge powerful corporations have to issue those Loyalty Points.

The whole point is to pay you non-taxable income which is hard to transfer, hard to aggregate, and hard to liquidate.

Why would Eve corporations want to give capsuleers, who are mere freelance contractors, shares in the company? Or let Demi-gods have even more power and autonomy?


Sure, but what company would pay you in "loyalty" without giving you any tangible benefit other than "earn enough points and you can spend isk etc for this item."

In any reasonable partnership, you would not simply be able to purchase an item, you would be an incredibly valued member (at the higher levels), granting you access to everything that corporation could reasonably grant you access to. This would be wealth, technology, influence, etc etc etc.

LP is lame. This man's suggestion is phenomenal.


If it was not illegal, every company out there would still be paying workers in company scrip. It is still widely used throughout the developing world as a way to keep workers dependent on the company. Call it loyalty points or call it a credit card cash rewards program (only redeemable through the credit card store): it's the same thing and businesses everywhere try to do it as often as they can.

So, at the danger of making a comparison to the real world, why would a super powerful Eve corporation want to give a Demi-God contractor an equity share in the company? That would be a terrible business decision and one that would surely be opposed by the stockholders. It is not an equal relationship.

Now, if you want to argue that there are valid gameplay reasons not to tie mission runners to a particular LP store, or why mission rewards should be lowered (which would happen if you went from LP to a more liquid, easier to transfer, easier to aggregate, form of currency), or why it is a good idea to allow market speculation directly in the LP markets (it is not) go right ahead. But LP makes sense economically and from a game design perspective, so you will need a stronger argument than "LP is lame."

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#67 - 2015-07-06 13:32:11 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Aliventi wrote:


There is nothing stopping players from selling their shares at a price that is worth their time. If they don't like the market price they can sell them higher or exchange them for items that give them the isk/share they want.



my issue here is that right now when i grind for big items, i am NOT competing with players grinding for small items. But by making LP sales all the same and near infinitely dividable you must compete at the share price level for both big items and small.

For example, right now i can grind for a few hours and get a +4 implant, and then put that on the market at a crap margin (because the time/work investment is small and everyone can do it). Or, i can grind for days, maybe a couple weeks, and get a epsilon pirate implant with a much higher margin (because there are less people putting this time commitment in).

With your proposal the players who are investing small amounts of time will be forcing down the price of shares, and with them the price of the LP items. And thats ALL LP items, including the ones that used to require large time investments.

A well made point. That is something I hadn't considered. What would you consider fair compensation for the loss of this?


Any proposal that makes mission rewards more liquid MUST be accompanied by a reduction in total rewards. As always with CCP, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#68 - 2015-07-06 16:35:57 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
There wouldn't be a way to preserve it without keeping large ticket items that could only be redeemed with vouchers rather than shares.

I thought about giving increasing amounts of shares for larger voucher redemptions. However, that means the problem flips to the opposite side and make redeeming and selling small amounts of shares give you a loss.

You could have the same item in the share buy back store for two separate prices. Maybe trading share vouchers gives you a 5% discount as opposed to shares. Thoughts?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#69 - 2015-07-07 00:24:30 UTC
Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2015-07-07 05:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Aliventi wrote:


Benefits:
Shares will increase the isk sink they already are in game.



Uhhhmmmm....how? The shares aren't going anywhere (aside from idiots undocking with them and getting blown up) so how is this an isk sink?

With LP I have to spend isk (usually) to get the LP store items, hence the sink. Here I see no sink.

Edit:
Ahhh, I see you wrote,

Quote:
Q: LP are already an isk sink. How will this increase the isk sink?
A: Great question! By simply adding shares to the market the increase in transaction taxes will be in increased isk sink. I know I have several hundred thousand LP stored, unused, in my wallet in game. I imagine there are hundreds of millions (or even billions) of LP stored, unused, in wallets across New Eden. Shares will only be an isk sink if redeemed or put on the market. By allowing shares to be market tradeable we increase the probability of those shares leaving wallets and becoming an isk sink. That will be a net increase in isk sinks.


How about we put a maybe on that? Yeah brokers fees and transactions taxes are sinks, but LP are currently a larger ISK sink. In fact, LP are the second largest ISK sink in game. Broker's fees are the smallest ISK sink and transaction taxes are the 3rd largest ISK sink. You might be right, but this is an empirical question and it cannot be answered definitively until it is actually implemented.

Edit II:

Here is an even more elegant solution: address the ISK sources. Currently the problem with ISK sources/sinks is that the sources are vastly larger than the sinks. The simple solution in the RW is to...slow down the ****ing printing press. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#71 - 2015-07-08 01:29:30 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground.

I just don't think there is a way to do it that isn't arbitrary. CCP could add super expensive items (a Revenant BPC could be an example) but I don't see how the isk/share wouldn't be the same as an implant or mod that is much cheaper. It may just be an unfortunate side effect that you lose the better margins on things that take more shares. The market taxes on the shares will help because you won't have to pay them like someone else will. Aside from that I don't see a way that will make it work that isn't arbitrary.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#72 - 2015-07-08 22:03:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
deleted as inflamatory

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#73 - 2015-07-08 22:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Aliventi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground.

I just don't think there is a way to do it that isn't arbitrary. CCP could add super expensive items (a Revenant BPC could be an example) but I don't see how the isk/share wouldn't be the same as an implant or mod that is much cheaper. It may just be an unfortunate side effect that you lose the better margins on things that take more shares. The market taxes on the shares will help because you won't have to pay them like someone else will. Aside from that I don't see a way that will make it work that isn't arbitrary.

An unfortunate side effect?

You killing someones ISK / hr i think you better come up with something better than 'an unfortunate side effect", as a response.

I see this stuff again and again on the forums, as long as it isnt your ISK / hr being killed you dont care and for you personally that's just fine but as a game mechanic it is unacceptable.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#74 - 2015-07-08 22:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
deleted

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#75 - 2015-07-09 02:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its a little arbitrary and wouldnt provide the same level of incentive to grind longer compared to what we have now, but its a decent middle ground.

I just don't think there is a way to do it that isn't arbitrary. CCP could add super expensive items (a Revenant BPC could be an example) but I don't see how the isk/share wouldn't be the same as an implant or mod that is much cheaper. It may just be an unfortunate side effect that you lose the better margins on things that take more shares. The market taxes on the shares will help because you won't have to pay them like someone else will. Aside from that I don't see a way that will make it work that isn't arbitrary.

An unfortunate side effect?

You killing someones ISK / hr i think you better come up with something better than 'an unfortunate side effect", as a response.

I see this stuff again and again on the forums, as long as it isnt your ISK / hr being killed you dont care and for you personally that's just fine but as a game mechanic it is unacceptable.

Things change all the time when it comes to payouts for certain activities. It isn't going to kill the isk/hour. It will reduce the isk/share price on certain items, but not make it worthless.

You could argue that it is in fact not much of an "unfortunate side effect." Take a look at the Gurristas LP store. If you organize for best LP payouts you will see that it isn't pirate implants that give the best payouts, but faction ammo that uses very little amounts of LP. Truly how much of an issue is it?

It's a balancing act. I think the change is worth the potential downside. Other players won't agree. I would love to find a way to keep the isk/share advantage of higher priced items. No one so far has proposed an idea that would preserve that without being totally arbitrary. As soon as someone does provide a satisfactory idea I would love to add it in.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#76 - 2015-07-10 09:45:32 UTC
No idea why your Isk/hr should get affected. There's the standard shops, which has its main profit items in ammo, implants and very few others, and there's the good shops, where you'd have to be stupid to buy ammo, implants or the other stuff, because there are items with so much better margins.

If the LP become tradeable, there will be vast amounts of them available on and after patch day, until the market swallows them. Then it's only about the generation of new LP . If some idiots decide to dump their valuable lp into ****** items or undercut market orders for them, they are hurting themselves, not your margins. if they all decide to sell their LP, then they decouple themselves from the real business to be made - exchanging the lp into items. The marketeers will do it for them and demand higher ratios than they paid for and sell the goodies at nice returns. This will drive up the price again, as farmers would be stupid to sell their lp that much under value.

Tl;dr:
Good lpstores stay good, bad stay bad.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#77 - 2015-07-10 09:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
"Being unfortunate enough to reside on the lower end of the intelligence spectrum", however, is a very prevalent attribute in EVE players.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#78 - 2015-07-11 15:21:46 UTC
After doing some further investigation I don't think there will be much lost by CCP introducing this plan. I took a look at the profitability of several corporation LP stores of different types (Highsec, Lowsec, Nullsec, Navy, Pirate) and I don't think there is any reason to attempt to protect high LP cost items. In many cases they are not the best item to trade your LP for, or if they are there isn't a significant difference between those items and cheaper items when it comes to isk/LP.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#79 - 2015-07-17 15:31:30 UTC
Anyone have any more feedback before I go find the CSM?
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#80 - 2015-07-18 06:51:18 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
No idea why your Isk/hr should get affected. There's the standard shops, which has its main profit items in ammo, implants and very few others, and there's the good shops, where you'd have to be stupid to buy ammo, implants or the other stuff, because there are items with so much better margins.

If the LP become tradeable, there will be vast amounts of them available on and after patch day, until the market swallows them. Then it's only about the generation of new LP . If some idiots decide to dump their valuable lp into ****** items or undercut market orders for them, they are hurting themselves, not your margins. if they all decide to sell their LP, then they decouple themselves from the real business to be made - exchanging the lp into items. The marketeers will do it for them and demand higher ratios than they paid for and sell the goodies at nice returns. This will drive up the price again, as farmers would be stupid to sell their lp that much under value.

Tl;dr:
Good lpstores stay good, bad stay bad.


Well being 100% wrong is, i guess, pretty close to accurate.

i make high sec LP and where i make it my LP is worth about 1k per LP. There are more dangerous places to make LP where your LP is worth a lot more than mine

This shares system makes my LP worth more and at the same time makes the guy taking all the risks worth less. Great for me personnally but im not about to destroy the balance of the game with regard to risk benefit just to line my own pockets.

Bad ideas are bad no matter how many people are blind to the consequences of the idea. Hopefully CCPs devs have a better command of the consequences of this proposal than a lot of posters here seem to have.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.