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Public Courier Contract Rewards: How Much Should I Pay?
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Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#1 - 2015-07-06 00:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Plleasure Hub
How should I go about calculating public courier contract rewards so that they are fair and attractive enough to be completed quickly and reliably?

Every month, I am shipping greater and greater volumes of goods. I have been using PUSHX for the most part, but now I am interested in exploring public courier contracts.

I am mainly interested in hiring freighter pilots to move things between the Jita and Amarr trade hubs, but I also need goods ferried to and from a backwater system. These are all high-sec routes.

My main issue with PUSHX is that when I set up a non-rush contract, it is not uncommon for it to take the full 3 or 4 days to get delivered. As the scale of my manufacturing operations increases, the profits forgone for a wait even that long are growing to significant levels.

Additionally, how should I handle shipments of high value (as much as 5 billion worth of goods atm) and/or large size? Have any of you devised a methodology for splitting shipments by value and/or size to make your contracts more attractive? I am in desperate need of some experienced opinions on the matter.

Thanks!

UPDATE 1: I have created a simple spreadsheet to calculate courier rewards and collateral amounts based on the advice given in this thread. You can use it by making a copy in Google Drive (or download it).

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Yooka Laylee
Project Ukulele
#2 - 2015-07-06 00:16:27 UTC
Have you tried Red Frog Freight? I tried them after my PUSHX contract expired twice without being collected (6 days wasted), RRF picked it up in under 6 hours.
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#3 - 2015-07-06 01:55:14 UTC
I am aware of Red Frog Freight, but I am really interested in exploring public contracts rather than switching to a different private corporation. Also, for more valuable shipments, you must use Blue Frog Freight, which is even more expensive than PUSHX. I may give RFF a try, but my original question still stands.

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#4 - 2015-07-06 02:57:29 UTC
I use public contracts extensively; something about my alliance tag makes Red Frog and Push a little more hesitant to deal with me.

Assuming your goal is to make a contract that will be successfully completed (i.e. we're not talking an explicit trap contract where you want it to fail):

- Collateral for goods I do not want (i.e. want to sell): 110% of projected sale price
- Collateral for goods I intend to personally use: 120% of replacement price, plus 150% of expected consequential losses if I don't have the goods on time.
- If possible, split consignments into max 1500m lots. If you have a massive lot, split it into unequal size lots (e.g. 25000 Quantum Microprocessors in one lot, 15000 in another, 10000 in another)
- Fee for short contracts (4j or less) - 0.5% of collateral. 0.3% if not time critical.
- Fee for longer ones (~15j) - 1% of collateral. Again lower if not time critical
- If it's urgent, overpay.
- If it's an intentional trap contract (collateral scam) - overpay.
- If it's not urgent, 3 day completion time. Always. People trust the contract more.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#5 - 2015-07-06 07:19:39 UTC
Haha, I could see that. I saw someone posting a declaration of independence from "CODE oppression" the other day. Something about a people's militia forming. Personally, I don't choose sides. That way, I can sell to both. ;)

This info is exactly what I was looking for! I will be giving it a try in my next resupply. Thank you so much, Sabriz!

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#6 - 2015-07-06 08:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
I personally pay 750k ISK for DSTs, 1 million ISK for freighters per billion of collateral per system travelled. Multiply by an additional 1.3-2 for a rush rate. Smile

Oh, and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5845803 - also, do join the "Haulers Channel" by Rita Jita, that is frequented by more than 500 clients, freelance & professional couriers alike.

All of the professional corporations will have a backlog of orders for Highsec freighting most of the time.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#7 - 2015-07-06 10:37:58 UTC
I will keep that in mind, GankYou. Those rates would be competitive if not cheaper than the ones I would get from BFF / PUSHX. I had forgotten about Haulers Channel! That would be a great place to drop in my contracts in order to speed up their completion.

I became acutely aware of the backlog when PUSHX implemented their new "My PUSHX" page that displays your queue position. It's very impressive! But it also made me realize my non-rush contracts were taking so long because they took forever to get through the queue, with rush contracts constantly jumping in front of them.

By going with public contracts, I am hoping that the wider pool of freighter pilots will result in faster acceptance and completion times without as steep a cost increase that professional rush jobs require.

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#8 - 2015-07-06 10:55:11 UTC
For what it's worth, I found the Haulers Channel almost useless (before my alliance were banned from it). People do public contracts lower than the prices considered fair in that channel.

Myself and some of the Dodixie trade scammers had an informal competition a while back, trying to get the absolute worst courier contracts filled that we could. Taught me a lot about how low prices get.

My "best" was a cheap interceptor-size parcel (collateral 10m or so) that was hauled 16j through high and low for 16k ISK. Yes, 1000 ISK per jump. I lost the competition.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Amy Inhibenson
Living Off The Land
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#9 - 2015-07-07 13:33:58 UTC
If I'm hub trading then I usually overpay because I'm extremely impatient and want to log in, covert my iskies into items and log off before I go EVE crazy and have persistent nightmares about 0.01-isking.

I usually base prices off what I paid for the items to avoid prematurely overusing the calculator button on my keyboard. Collateral - 150%; Reward - 1%; Completion - 1 day

Unsurprisingly my orders usually get taken up extremely quickly, even within minutes sometimes, unless I make the classic mistake of trying to move something massive and with a terrible value-to-weight ratio like Strontium Clathrates.
Marseillefrog
Blueprint Mania
#10 - 2015-07-09 19:18:15 UTC
Plleasure Hub wrote:
How should I go about calculating public courier contract rewards so that they are fair and attractive enough to be completed quickly and reliably?

Every month, I am shipping greater and greater volumes of goods. I have been using PUSHX for the most part, but now I am interested in exploring public courier contracts.

I am mainly interested in hiring freighter pilots to move things between the Jita and Amarr trade hubs, but I also need goods ferried to and from a backwater system. These are all high-sec routes.

My main issue with PUSHX is that when I set up a non-rush contract, it is not uncommon for it to take the full 3 or 4 days to get delivered. As the scale of my manufacturing operations increases, the profits forgone for a wait even that long are growing to significant levels.

Additionally, how should I handle shipments of high value (as much as 5 billion worth of goods atm) and/or large size? Have any of you devised a methodology for splitting shipments by value and/or size to make your contracts more attractive? I am in desperate need of some experienced opinions on the matter.

Thanks!


Hi.

I use public contacts a lot. They are cheaper and get stuff delivered way faster than PUSHX or Red Frog. I move items between the trade hubs in high sec. I usually put the reward at around 300k per jump. This will get it delivered by the next day. If I really want something delivered fast I will bump the reward up to 400k to 500k per jump on a 1 or 2 bill collateral for anywhere from 500m3 up to 2000 m3 and it can get completed in minutes. For really big stuff I will sometimes use PUSHX but public courier works as well. Make sure to price them correctly because there are ganks. I have had my contracts failed a few times because of ganks but I end up making a few hundred mill because I add enough on to the collateral. Don't go cheap on the collateral. If someone doesn't pick it up you can be sure like 5 other greedy haulers will. They are shills for an easy buck.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#11 - 2015-07-09 20:43:01 UTC
Just experiment to see what is the sweet spot.

I usually pay 0.2% for Amarr-Jita or Jita-Amarr for small sizes and they almost always (80-90%) are delivered within hours, and always within the 1 day I offer. I up the pay a bit for larger loads (20000m3+), but even then don't go above 0.5%. I break the cargo into 1-1.5B chunks though.

That rates on that route are dirt cheap with all that traffic. If you are not in a rush, I bet you could go much lower than 0.2% and still get it moved.

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Why Do They Gank?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2015-07-09 23:50:56 UTC
One thing I'd add. I'm always willing to overpay if there's a brief market opportunity.

Example: I recently noticed that Item X was selling at 8500 in Jita and 11600 in Dodixie. From trading this item I knew 100k units would sell in a reasonable timeframe, so I went to Jita and bought 100k units. But rather than paying my usual 15m for a tanked freighter load from Jita to Dodi, I paid 40m.

Got it there fast, and started selling straight away.

Item Y is another example, it has a 'fair market price' of about 1.1 billion, but can sometimes be snapped up at 1.0-1.03b and sold at 1.17-1.25b. If the stars align I overpay hard on courier contracts for it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-07-13 19:36:38 UTC
I usually stick to 500k per jump. Each jump takes a minute, so a courier would be making 30m isk / hr when delivering my stuff. Not bad. I find it gets delivered within hours if it's being delivered to a major hub (Jita, Amarr etc) .
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2015-07-13 20:41:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I tend to offer 150,000 to 250,000 per jump for public contracts, depending on the collateral and volume of cargo, and how far off the beaten-path the stations are.

I've offered as high as 1m per jump to move a single deadspace module I wanted ASAP, but was too lazy to move it myself.

Want to move something from Jita to Amarr / Rens / Dodixie? That's a major trade route, so there can be a lot of ships making a return trip empty, and they will take any reasonable collateral contract.

Want to move something from the middle of nowhere to the middle of nowhere? You are gonna have to offer a big reward for somebody to get of the beaten path. More than 2-4 jumps off a major trade route is gonna start costing more.

Want to move something that requires are freighter? Well you just disqualified all the smaller haulers; you may want to break-up your cargo into multiple contracts.

I currently own 4 freighters and 3 jump freighters, so I ask myself, "would I accept this contract?"
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2015-07-14 00:08:08 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

I currently own 4 freighters and 3 jump freighters, so I ask myself, "would I accept this contract?"



Lots of contracts get done that I wouldn't go near if I had a neutral alt skilled into appropriate haulers.

Just the other day I had an interceptor parcel moved from Rancer to Dodixie, 150m collateral, 1m payment. I fly interceptors a lot, and even without factoring in the interceptor/pod cost I'd consider that contract negative EV (chance of total loss - to smartbomb camp - greater than 1 in 150).

Don't ask 'would I accept this contract'. Ask 'Is there anyone that can afford to accept this contract stupid enough to do it'.

Incidentally that's why 10b collateral contracts are hard to get filled even at 10 times the price you'd pay for a 1b collateral contract. The people dumb enough to do them usually lose everything before they get to 10b ISK.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Jeronica
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#16 - 2015-07-14 15:09:25 UTC
I suggest a flat rate of 1bil and no collateral.

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Plleasure Hub
Municorn
#17 - 2015-08-02 02:59:28 UTC
Thank you all for the great advice in dealing with public couriers! I have been testing out the figures suggested. So far, I am paying a fraction of what I did through private hauler corps with faster delivery times. I have not had a contract fail yet, but with the collateral calculation suggested, it would likely be more profitable than manufacturing even if I did have one fail.

I created a spreadsheet based on the advice given, which you can access through the link in my original post!

"There's no meaningful difference between a real and a virtual world. It's pointless to ask anyone who they really are. All you can do is accept and believe in them, because whoever they are in your mind, is their true identity." — Kazuto Kirigaya
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#18 - 2015-08-02 08:40:16 UTC
Plleasure Hub wrote:
Thank you all for the great advice in dealing with public couriers! I have been testing out the figures suggested. So far, I am paying a fraction of what I did through private hauler corps with faster delivery times. I have not had a contract fail yet, but with the collateral calculation suggested, it would likely be more profitable than manufacturing even if I did have one fail.

I created a spreadsheet based on the advice given, which you can access through the link in my original post!



I always set up my contracts so that I'd rather they fail.

Either it's a legit contract (in which case I'd rather a failure but don't care much) or it's a scam (I actively want the contract to fail and will do everything I can to make it happen).

Usually it's the former

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Jebediah K Erman
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-08-11 02:08:48 UTC
Personally I've never used a freight company. I pay a straight 8-10% of the value of the items I want shipped In a public contract and that's that. I set up a contract today that stars in low and is about 20 jumps to jita; 10 mil reward for 100 mil collateral.

Courier contracts to me I want completed promptly and I only create them if I consider it to much risk to ferry the goods myself. All this paying 1.5% stuff is all well and good , but i hope to have doubled the 100 mill in the week it takes to transport...asuming anyone ever does!
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#20 - 2015-08-11 03:40:38 UTC
Jebediah K Erman wrote:
Personally I've never used a freight company. I pay a straight 8-10% of the value of the items I want shipped In a public contract and that's that. I set up a contract today that stars in low and is about 20 jumps to jita; 10 mil reward for 100 mil collateral.

Courier contracts to me I want completed promptly and I only create them if I consider it to much risk to ferry the goods myself. All this paying 1.5% stuff is all well and good , but i hope to have doubled the 100 mill in the week it takes to transport...asuming anyone ever does!


You dramatically overestimate the time it takes for bad contracts to fill.

Even with a CODE. alliance tag (which to a lot of haulers is like a beacon screaming "THIS GUY IS PROBABLY A SCAMMER DO NOT TAKE THIS PARCEL YOU WILL BE GANKED AND YOUR DOG ROASTED!!!") they get done faster than you'd think.

Well paying contracts get accepted fast, but often people think 'it's a trap, I'll do it when the initiator of the contract is offline or not expecting it'. So they often take most of the 24 hours you allow from time of acceptance.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
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