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Tempest
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Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-07-05 00:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Umino Iruka wrote:
Yeah, 9.6 effective turrets is not gonna cut it, and the only reason it somewhat works on Typhoon Fleet Issue, is because of a generous drone bay.
After doing some more calculating and comparing with other similar ships, I've modified the original post again.

What CCP is proposing would make Tempest have 12 effective turrets. Machariel has 11.666...
That same effect could be achieved with a single 10% rate of fire bonus on 6 guns with the addition of an optimal bonus.

The only thing I would recommend over all that is to nerf their drone bays to 25Mbit/sec and 50m3 to keep their dps somewhat in line.


There you go, something like that looks good depending on whether a optimal bonus is more suitable then a falloff bonus. I never like the fact that many Minmatar hulls have double damage bonuses where as the Gallentee has 2 separate and more useful bonuses.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2015-07-05 06:36:17 UTC
This thread is a mess.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2015-07-05 07:08:33 UTC
Projectile Artillery weapons are not meant for DPS. Their sole purpose is Alpha strikes. Nothing else.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Umino Iruka
#24 - 2015-07-05 22:07:40 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Projectile Artillery weapons are not meant for DPS. Their sole purpose is Alpha strikes. Nothing else.



Originally, they might have been designed as such, but it's an archaic design which needs to end.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#25 - 2015-07-06 09:31:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Optimal range?

This thread lost all credibility, even if it had any. Smile I used to sail across Lowsec in a Tempest w/ 2x Neuts before you were even born - the ship is perfect with the DPS increase.

Umino Iruka wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Projectile Artillery weapons are not meant for DPS. Their sole purpose is Alpha strikes. Nothing else.


Originally, they might have been designed as such, but it's an archaic design which needs to end.


What? SORRY?

You honestly have NO idea. You don't. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-07-06 09:38:20 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:


What is OP?

It has 6 guns.

15% per level to make it slightly better than a normal Tempest, and being better than a Maelstrom by 0.5 effective turrets - It's a NAVY BATTLESHIP, it's supposed to be better than t1 battleships.



CCP is getting rid of tiers, roles is the keyword.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2015-07-06 09:46:29 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Projectile Artillery weapons are not meant for DPS. Their sole purpose is Alpha strikes. Nothing else.

Originally, they might have been designed as such, but it's an archaic design which needs to end.

No, it does not. It it what makes this weapon what it is. If you want a long-range, more DPS focused weapon, you have to use lasers or railguns. Likewise, if you want immense alpha strikes that rips through a ship's HP with one shot, you have to use projectile Artilleries (or cruise missiles to some extend). Equalizing these distinctly different usage scenarios is not desirable.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Umino Iruka
#28 - 2015-07-06 12:42:45 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Optimal range?

This thread lost all credibility, even if it had any. Smile I used to fish for attention on the forums before you were even born - this thread seemed like a perfect chance to do so again.


There, I fixed that for ya.

Mark Hadden wrote:
Umino Iruka wrote:


What is OP?

It has 6 guns.

15% per level to make it slightly better than a normal Tempest, and being better than a Maelstrom by 0.5 effective turrets - It's a NAVY BATTLESHIP, it's supposed to be better than t1 battleships.



CCP is getting rid of tiers, roles is the keyword.


Dude, this thread is not that long, try reading it fully next time - the views of the post you referred to have been abandoned and the original post has been modified to reflect that. Also, this has nothing to do with tiers, CCP clearly stated that navy ships are supposed to be better than their t1 counterparts.


Rivr Luzade wrote:

No, it does not. It it what makes this weapon what it is. If you want a long-range, more DPS focused weapon, you have to use lasers or railguns. Likewise, if you want immense alpha strikes that rips through a ship's HP with one shot, you have to use projectile Artilleries (or cruise missiles to some extend). Equalizing these distinctly different usage scenarios is not desirable.


No one said anything about equalizing anything, you're jumping to conclusions, and remember this is a thread about a particular HULL (or two) and about giving it a role that is not overshadowed by ships that are simply better in every way.

Equalizing is bad, but what's even more bad, are statements that a certain weapon system in the game is "not meant for dps" as well as saying that weapon system is designed for "alpha strikes and nothing more". Weapon systems are meant to keep their flavor, but not to such an extent so that their dps suffers to the point of becoming just a niche weapon.


The serious drawbacks of projectile weapons is already being adressed through hulls designed to fit them, just like CCP proposed to increase the rate of fire on the Tempest in their own way - this is just a different view on how it could be done with identical dps changes that CCP wants to do (a 12 effective turrets Tempest), only my way gives it a chance to use arty for something other than just alpha.

As far as arty alpha is concerned, it remains the same, Tempest would have a bit less alpha, but arty alpha is better suited for Maelstrom class battleships and Tornados because Tempest has less alpha than those 2 ships even now with it's 5% damage per level bonus.


The argument here revolves around a simple fact that artillery has too many drawbacks at the moment, and about fixing some of those drawbacks with hull bonuses, for example:

Abbadon/Paladin/Nightmare all have 10 effective turrets after their bonuses are applied and can pull over 1000 Tachyon dps with 3 faction heat sinks and both +6% implants

Maelstrom/Vargur have 10.666... effective turrets after their bonuses are applied and pull slightly over 800 1400mm arty dps with 3 faction gyros and both +6% implants

On a side note, Machariel has 11.666... effective turrets after it's bonuses are applied and CANNOT pull even 900 1400mm arty dps with 3 faction gyros and both +6% implants.

These are comparisons of dps only, don't even get me started on damage application...

I'm not saying the dps of these examples should be identical! I'm saying the gap between them is too large EVEN with projectile turret ships having STRONGER dps bonuses than laser boats and this translates into medium artillery guns as well!!!

Fixing this is perfectly viable by adding stronger RoF bonuses to Minmatar hulls (preferably not just the Tempest, but you have to start somwhere).


And to all of you fearing for your double neut Tempests who don't read the fine print, my changes would not be worse than what CCP suggested - with my changes, you would get a few kilometers of optimal over an identical dps bonus, the ship would just be much more viable for fitting arty than it is now.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#29 - 2015-07-06 14:32:54 UTC
Tempest with the proposed changes is brought back to *well-viable* levels. It's a bit sad how many hulllbonuses you have to slap on a ship to make ACs viable but on the tempest, It's going to be one awesome ride if not even pushing it over the edge due to negligible cost of losing one (~70mil or less)

Every smoewhat sentient pvp-person is familiar with the onslaught two heavy neuts - if even unbonused - can create in a smallscale scenario. The Tempest was not as bad as we made it out to be because it had those redeeming qualities. It just sucked at BS-things in general, beyond being moderately quick with an undecisive slot-layout but two utility highs. So you're now getting phenomenal dps at short ranges (iE 15-25k) together with2 neuts or neut/heavy SB, with the mobility of a CBC and the added advantage of BS-sized CBs, props (heat for ages) and repair mods (like XLASBs, LAAR).

Doesn't even need a change to ACs/Arties on the large scale to start with... Small/Large yay, meds nay.
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