Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So you're really saying that it is not about what you have lost or your incompetence, it is just they aren't paying as much as you to be as big a loser as you. Solutions have been given. Your only point of complaint is that they get to do what they want, stop you from doing what you want, and (gasp) they get to have fun for NO ISK AT ALL!!!!

Eve is unsafe for them, pointed out many times at length, they just chose to RISK alot less. Why not go complain at a casino that poor people shouldn't be allowed to have fun at penny slots when you keep dropping hundo's on double zero in roulette and losing?

TL;DR Try losing less

It is. Mechanically, gankers are at the most risk of any player in the game. Sure they have learned to mitigate those risks like everyone else (except freighter pilots it seems from the amount of whine threads) but they are at extreme risk from both NPCs and other players. What more do you want them to put on the line?

Balancing this game by ISK is a terrible idea for many game balance reasons which Is why CCP has chosen to ignore your idea. For new players and smaller groups to have any chance, players cannot be isolated from being affect by them by virtue of having a bunch of ISK. Destroyers are suppose to be glass cannon and freighters (all capital ships actually) are suppose to be vulnerable to smaller ships. This is just how Eve is - you do not get to be safe from a new player because you can afford a battleship or an orca - you have to earn that safety.

Eve is a game about griefing made by a bunch of griefers:

(source: http://deadendthrills.com/fire-and-ice-the-cold-heart-of-eve-online/)

Gankers are an intended part of the game and have been from the beginning. No matter how much you look down on them or believe them to lack skill, gankers were and are a major pillar of this game as conceived of by CCP. Ganking does not need to require "skill" - whatever you think that means - just like warping to an asteroid belt and pressing F1 or clicking on some blueprints to make some stuff doesn't need to require "skill". These things are just part of the game you are intended to deal with.

If you don't like gankers then do what the designers of this game intend for you to do - stop them in-game. Do not come to the forums begging for more "consequences" for ganking because you deem the activity to lack skill all as a flimsy pretense for a direct buff to your playstyle. For shame.

Been some good posts here. I've learned a few things.

I have to admit the idea that 20-30 guys can just clear a route through lowsec and skip Niarja altogether actually never occurred to me. That was a good point.

To those that keep beating the "insta lock web warp" dead horse, try to wrap your head around what happens if this doesn't work. If the attackers can get a point on the freighter before it warps away you've lost the freighter. ("Instant" isn't always instant, eh?) Yes, it works most of the time and I've done it many, many times. Gankers only need to point for about 10-15 seconds to start bumping. The fight is essentially over but for the crying at that... point. This is why I think remote warp stabs could be cool. If they bring 10 points, you can bring 15 stabs and your ship can warp. I haven't heard a good argument why that is somehow game breaking. Make the remote stab ships stuck in place and attackable for five minutes, like a cyno, as a consequence, if it really bugs you that much. You can gank THEM.

The remote "mass" to fight back against bumping is along the same lines. I don't see why this is game breaking, but I do see it as a legitimate counter to any bumping games, of which there are many in EVE. (Leave aside for the moment that as a physicist in RL I can't stand how a frigate can bump a freighter in the first place...) In both these cases it's not a request for 100% safety, it's a request to "fight back" during the gank somehow, without being a ganker oneself. You DO realize there are corps that won't let you join if you've ever ganked someone in highsec right? It's how we keep gankers out of our corps?

I did like the "warp to fleet member" whilst the freighter is still cloaked suggestion. That eliminates the "come out of cloak too far from the freighter" problem. That was a new one for me and I may use it. "Hopefully" I won't lag for 300ms and get beat by some other insta-lock points.

It was also mentioned how enough alpha can overwhelm even substantial remote rep with far fewer ships (or ISK) committed. Again, I don't see what is game breaking about a "remote rep" that is designed to counter alpha. I'm not asking to just erase the damage. I'm saying... can't we redirect it to another ship? (Mirrors?) Make that ship stuck in place, or the pod vulnerable, if you really have to be able to kill SOMEONE.

To me the more important concept is being missed. Gankers wrap themselves in the CCP-loves-griefing flag and look down their noses at people who manage to "let themselves" be ganked. To be clear... the RISK of going through Niarja with a cargo is FUN for me. I like it! It's what makes EVE, EVE. I don't want 100% safety, I want to be able to play anytime I have time, just like gankers can gank anytime they decide to. The "just avoid Niarja when gankers are there" completely misses this point. As a ganker, YOU have put your posse together and staked out a gate waiting for a victim. YOU have decided it's time for YOU to have your fun. We see you there. We should not have to dock and STOP PLAYING until you're done having your fun. And if there's 300 of you because it's Burn Amarr, we should still be able to play. I shouldn't have to find another game to play that weekend, I should be able to participate by upping my game.

Your "content" shouldn't shut down portions of my game. It should be content for me as well. I should be able to rise to the occasion, be part of the content, bring a bunch of friends, and try to get my shipment through.

I suggest you live in low-sec, null-sec, and/or null-sec for awhile.

You can have the best schemes... the best preparations... the best logistics... the best equipment... the best and most numerous people... and yet there will still often be times where you WILL lose. And badly.
In such situations... "avoidance" (see: "blueballing") is often the only smart tactic you can perform. This applies for everyone, even people who live in high-sec.

Now this is not to say that you should not haul when you do not have support or when ganking is hitting a peak (FYI: it isn't... occurrences of ganking are still lower than they were years ago)... but it does mean you have to change up tactics and think less in terms of "how can I directly confront this?" and more in terms of "how can I get around this?"

example:
- webbing trick: Yes, yes, you poo poo on this because gankers warp disrupt the freighter... why not have two extra friends come along in fast locking arty-fit Thrashers to counter-gank the pointer?
Hint: if someone "points" the freighter, they are criminal and can be shot at by anyone... locking and blapping should only take 1 to 2 seconds.... then the freighter warps away.
- have multiple friends use tanky Deep Space Transports and/or Orcas? No bull... those things are HARD to kill when fit for maximum buffer. The webbing trick still works on them.
- change the route
- bump the bumper: you only need get between the bumper and his target... I recommend a Stabber
- suicide gank the bumping ship: sometimes the best way to fight fire is with more fire. You just have to find friends willing to blow stuff up and take the security hit.


Also... keep this in this game: anyone CAN do what they want to do in EVE, but no one has the RIGHT to do what they want to.

So gank our destroyers instead of doing a poor job of trying to insult people on the forum.

Mechanically, gankers are the most risk averse of any player in the game. They abuse poor game design decisions to mitigate all risks to 0. They are at no risk no matter what hits them because it hits the air instead of wallet. I want them to put on the line something worth countering, because right now you can literally kill thousands of their free ship and don't inflict a single bruise.



1) Destroyers are supposed to be frigate killers and freighters are not supposed to be vulnerable to frigate killers. This pretty much ruins everything you said.
2) Defending a horrible mechanics by using new players as a shield is the lowest of discussion strategies. There are a crapton of examples how "noob safety" by ISK splurging works wonders for small groups, I mean look at Brave and what they deal with. And once again, I don't know how many times do I have to repeat it for you, it's not about safety, it's about the fact that ganking is free and easy, and it's doing damage to the game until we remove at least the free part.



Good. Totally good. It indeed is... with one exception - it's basically a theme park for gankers, due to gank being free and easy. Once again, I have to make another attempt to break through your especially dense refusal to get the idea: NOBODY SAYS REMOVE GANKING. See, I have to use caps to get it through to you already. All we need is to make gankers play eve with us. It's a click-a-freighter theme park for them, when it needs to be a very dark eve. Which is why we need to remove the loss immunity from them - to bring them in a dark eve together with us. Right now they are playing the different game, a game with no loss, just a bright theme park with loot pinatas all around, which cannot be made safe, or even hard to gank at the moment. I do not say we need to make freighters harder to gank, of all things a talos gank is easier than catalyst gank, but if talos is counter-ganked, it's a loss, while counter-ganking thousands of catalysts is a laughingstock of futile effort.

If your reading comprehensions gets any worse, every second line will recite the general line of thought in caps. I will give you an example:
EVE NEEDS TO BE DARK TO GANKERS TOO, NOT THEME PARK OVERFLOWING WITH FREE LOOT LIKE IT IS NOW.

If people from a rather large corp can not help save a freighter, or getting a freighter safely through a dangerzone, then no amount of modules will change that. There's lots of people who web their freighters into warp, so you guys should be able as well.

If people with single alts can do it, a bigger corp can do it as well. What does it tell you about people who don't manage to do what thousands of others successfully did before them?

Regarding saving freighters I have to say that the so called antigankers maybe just suck at their job? It's easy to save even an afk freighter who gets bumped. Trippleweb him when he initiates warp again and accept the loss of sec as a badge of honour!

I hate to break it to you, although actually I don't, but you are allowed to lose at this game.

There are plenty of ways to "up your game", and most of them work perfectly well. But at the end of the day, if there are 300 people in Amarr interdicting shipping, making the choice to be there is one that has consequences. You don't get to be immune to consequences just by pouting about it.

Deal with it.

Mechanically? The game mechanics force the 100% risk of ship loss upon the suicide ganker. At that point, it is probably more of a cost than a risk, but gankers do risk and lose ships all the time in pursuit of a gank that is unsuccessful.

But it is you that are not understanding the point. Your assertion does not matter. Gankers could be the most risk-averse, skill-lacking players in all of Eve as you claim (which they are not for the record), but they are intended to be there 100% on purpose by CCP. CCP has decided that the ability for a player to strike at targets in highsec for the cost of the ship they are flying is how they want the mechanic to work. Presumably, CCP thinks that this mechanism by which one player can exchange their ship for (a chance at) the contents of another player's ship provides player-driven risk in highsec and makes for more compelling gameplay. You clearly don't like it but CCP thinks the potential risk of a suicide gank by another player makes the game better and from where I stand they are correct.

Players are not going to risk more than they stand to gain in the long run, so by making suicide ganking feasible it actually happens. There is no point in allowing suicide ganking if it is so punitive and/or unprofitable that it cannot be used as then no player would do it.


Calm down miner and take a deep breath.

Ganking is suppose to be this way. It is a way where players can take stuff from other players. It is not suppose to be balanced on ISK or skill or another attribute as you think it should be for some unknown reason. It is there to provide a risk to other players, full stop. I am sure there is room to make ganking and criminal gameplay more compelling and drive more conflict, but its primary purpose is to put players at risk. CCP is making a game, and from a game design perspective, the attackers should always have the advantage. If you give it to the defenders, everyone just turtles and grinds resources and no conflict takes place. This is why CCP has recently made changes to make rolling wormholes more difficult and added more of them, moved miners into warpable anomalies, made interceptors harder to catch, or invented entosis as a capture mechanic. See the pattern here?

Suicide ganking is the same. It is there to provide risk to haulers and miners in highsec. Like any good mechanic it forces a trade-off on industrialists. Do I fit for tank and spend effort on actively piloting my ship or do I go for max yield/cargo and AFK? Ganking is essentially 100% avoidable with enough effort, so the game is for the industrialist to find the "sweet spot" where they are safe from gankers but not needlessly gimp their yield/cargo. Some will get lazy or greedy and get ganked (although most will get away with it), but that is exactly why CCP as purposely put suicide ganking into the game - to make fitting choices and flying behaviour meaningful and have consequences.

If you have some ideas to make ganking more interesting, I am sure many people here would like to hear them. But if you just come here and go on about how easy ganking is you aren't going to get very far because it is in the game to provide risk. If CCP makes ganking more costly just to satisfy your sense of justice it will stop and there will be less conflict, less destruction and less player engagement which is exactly the opposite of what they are trying to do right now. Eve is a dark dystopia, so the fact that taking another player's stuff is a viable playstyle is part of that adds an unique moral aspect to the game, intentionally I will remind you yet again.

CCP has balanced suicide ganking such that an individual player can pretty much eliminate the risk of their ship being ganked if they spend some effort (or sacrifice enough yield) but yet they cannot shut a ganker down from operating completely. It's perhaps not a perfect balance in all aspects, but generally this seems like a reasonable compromise to maintain interesting gameplay for everyone.

Come again, you need a citation that whales are not supposed to be vulnerable to fishing hooks?



Eve cannot be dark to gankers due to gankers being loss-immune at the moment. That needs to be fixed - then making eve dark to gankers would be actually possible, albeit A LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT LOT harder than ganking (order of magnitude in difficulty difference is correct).

it's "gibberish" to people who want to have loss immunity, of course, imagine what can I do to you if you're suddenly not loss immune.