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Three New Team Play Anti-Gank Modules

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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-07-03 02:17:45 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
the way to avoid a 10-man gank squad (or more) is by having remote eyes in the system, like an alt in a noob ship, who can tell you - there's 10-20 known gankers, and the place is littered with concord
hmmmm, might be a good idea to avoid aufay today......
intel and common sense is your counter, if not, nothing will save you

Niarja/Uedama always have gankers and you cannot avoid it. l2read, or nothing will save you from common stupid.

Kenrailae wrote:
I am 99% sure that if you bring 14 friends in scimitars and 1 friend in a vulture, they will be able to out rep any 10 man gank trap

Your 99% is wrong. Tried that. Does completely nothing against overkill, pretty much like any other ganking counter.

Danika Princip wrote:
Why should larger numbers of apparently better organised and co-ordinated players lose out to smaller groups with worse co-ordination?

Being an F1 monkey/F1 bot/F1 alt is not coordination.
Larger amount of players should lose because it has less ISK on a field. They field... pretty much no ISK since gank catalyst if free, (unless they go full ****** and bling it with unnecessary T2... but meh, that's gankers, can't expect them to be able to think) against at least a billion worth freighter and they should lose unless they bring a billion of their own.

The dude is completely right. While the ganking itself is not a problem, when it's done using free ships with "press F1 to win" ease, that is a problem.

Eve needs to be harsh to everyone, gankers should not be an exception. CCP, remove free ships from ganking, add skill component to ganking.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-07-03 02:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Actually.... I'm not.


I can promise you did not have 50% more logistics boats than they had dps boats and a command ship on site just in case of a gank. A logi with good skills and a command ship rep just about as much or more as a dps boat

EDIT: Better yet go armor, use guardians and an astarte, put 5 reps on those bad boys and 1 cap transfer. Put Resistance plating on your freighter, then when the gank comes, OH those guardians like a boss. 2 Guardians overheating on a freighter with astarte boosts and resistance plating give the freighter a 4000 ish dps tank. As long as it survives the whopping 2.8 seconds cycle time, which if you think you're about to be ganked you should be prerepping anyway... I'd like to know again how you had as much or more logi and commandship and still lost a freighter. About the only thing that can do that is a bunch of nado's, and if that's the case well sorry bout your luck, but alpha damage is alpha and a pain wherever it goes. Freighters don't get special treatment for it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#23 - 2015-07-03 03:42:26 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
But there is a definite imbalance between the amount of effort and material a 'defender' has to put into anti-ganking as opposed to the effort an 'attacker' has to put into ganking, and THAT is a problem.


That's not a problem so long as a T1 frigate with two webs can sling a freighter into warp in ~4 seconds.

The only effort imbalance is between those who do get caught by gankers, and those who don't. And since the effort to not get caught is so very, very low, it's honestly surprising that we kill anybody at all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-07-03 03:47:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
But there is a definite imbalance between the amount of effort and material a 'defender' has to put into anti-ganking as opposed to the effort an 'attacker' has to put into ganking, and THAT is a problem.


That's not a problem so long as a T1 frigate with two webs can sling a freighter into warp in ~4 seconds.

The only effort imbalance is between those who do get caught by gankers, and those who don't. And since the effort to not get caught is so very, very low, it's honestly surprising that we kill anybody at all.



This isn't always the case. A t1 frig with webs has limited range, which can make a difference. I agree that the effort barrier is the biggest factor far and away, but I wouldn't call it cut and dry case closed either. There are alot of work arounds for bad mechanics, basically. The mechanics should still be assessed and addressed, so the duct tape fixes can be done away with.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-07-03 06:03:30 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it. During Burn Amarr plenty of pilots tried to save freighters but (so far as I could tell) once a freighter was getting bumped around it was doomed because there was simply no way for friendly pilots to help. 300 Catalysts or some-odd disposable battleships in a quick blob will take out a freighter, no matter what you and 100 friends try to do to save it.

I propose three modules:

- Mass Applicator: Each module applied to the target reduces how far out of alignment it can be bumped, while increasing the time taken to align. IE: If 10-20 of your corpmates activate this module on your freighter, you can align eventually even if you're being bumped by gankers. It might take 5 times as long but you'll get there.

- Remote Warp Stabilizers: Each module adds one point of warp stabilization.

- Shield/Amour/Hull Sacrifice: Each module applied to target absorbs damage to the target of the specified type.

Possibly these modules should be restricted to apply only to certain ship types. Probably anything like this needs some risk or consequences to go with it too. Perhaps application of these modules give you a suspect timer, or lets you be attackable by the ganker's corp, or something like that. Highsec piracy requires a ganker to sacrifice their ship and xx minutes of time being red flashy, plus time to get sec status back up maybe, so let my corpmates choose to make the same sacrifice to get my high-value shipment through.

Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


So basically what you saying ist that 300 people should not be able to kill the ship of 1 guy. Really !!!!!

To your modules:

- 1 No you can bumb the bumper, web your freighter be creative
- Remote Warp Stabilizer can´t see the use of this module
- Shield/Armor/Hull Sacrifice: They are implemented with a different name like remote shield booster or remote armor repairer

And be creative you say that 300 Catalysts will kill a freighter even if there were a e.g. 300 man Logistic gang there to safe him. I would say that even if there were only 100 Logistic ships or even less you would be able to save the freighter.

But now comes the real problem the defenders are not organized. And don´t think ganking is that easy.

-1
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-07-03 08:24:34 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it.


Instalock 4 web loki or minmatar recon.
Counter to being bumped is to be off grid before they bump you, and applying this ~4s after the freighter breaks cloak puts you in warp on tick 5, well before the first bump arrives.
/thread


2 daredevil webs will put a freighter instantly into warp.
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-07-03 08:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
James Baboli wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?


Not sure if you read all the way to the end but I do use webs and many other things recommended to avoid ganks. The problem with remote reps is that they can't be applied anywhere near as fast as the gankers can do damage. This is especially true for BS on Freighter ganks. That's why I suggested a module that causes your corpmate's ship to pop instead of the freighter.


How damn long did it take you to web your freighter for a bump to arrive in time?

If not using a range bonused hull, or waiting to hit the time when a single web will initiate warp, on a non-prop cruiser with no scan res mods, it can take the 8s needed for a well placed bump mach to burn from gate to bump freighter.



yo dont need any ranged bonused ships. Usually its just 1 0.5 system in the pipe you want to cross (Narja),
so have your spots and web alt there.

1. put your webber into warp range to gate (off-grid?).
2. get in fleet with freighter
3. jump your freighter through gate, hold cloak
4. warp webber to freighter char, you'll land at zero
5. initiate warp on freighter
6. as freighter drops cloak, apply webs
7. profit

2 cheap 60% webs from a daredevil = instawarp
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-07-03 08:44:54 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:

yo dont need any ranged bonused ships. Usually its just 1 0.5 system in the pipe you want to cross (Narja),
so have your spots and web alt there.

1. put your webber into warp range to gate (off-grid?).
2. get in fleet with freighter
3. jump your freighter through gate, hold cloak
4. warp webber to freighter char, you'll land at zero
5. initiate warp on freighter
6. as freighter drops cloak, apply webs
7. profit

2 cheap 60% webs from a daredevil = instawarp


It's not a bad idea if you're trying to move something valuable via freighter to bring a counter bumper along for the trip, too, if you can. I've used a command ship for this purpose, as it serves as links to improve the freighters EHP and alignment, a scout to spot potential trouble, web support, and as a last ditch, an effective way to counter bump. A bumper needs to get it right as many times as it takes to bring their gank fleet on grid, while you've only got to get it right once to get your freighter clear of potential trouble. Yes, it requires a little extra effort, but it brings risk to near zero if you're paying attention. During the burn Amarr event, I went to niarja for some free kills and witnessed plenty of freighters escape using the tactics described above.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-07-03 10:57:51 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Actually.... I'm not.


I can promise you did not have 50% more logistics boats than they had dps boats and a command ship on site just in case of a gank. A logi with good skills and a command ship rep just about as much or more as a dps boat

EDIT: Better yet go armor, use guardians and an astarte, put 5 reps on those bad boys and 1 cap transfer. Put Resistance plating on your freighter, then when the gank comes, OH those guardians like a boss. 2 Guardians overheating on a freighter with astarte boosts and resistance plating give the freighter a 4000 ish dps tank. As long as it survives the whopping 2.8 seconds cycle time, which if you think you're about to be ganked you should be prerepping anyway... I'd like to know again how you had as much or more logi and commandship and still lost a freighter. About the only thing that can do that is a bunch of nado's, and if that's the case well sorry bout your luck, but alpha damage is alpha and a pain wherever it goes. Freighters don't get special treatment for it.

4000 dps tank is easily broken by having just 5 free catalyst overkill on the field. Just 5 more free ships.
So this is counterable at next to no extra effort. 4000 is nothing in a gank situation, mate.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
But there is a definite imbalance between the amount of effort and material a 'defender' has to put into anti-ganking as opposed to the effort an 'attacker' has to put into ganking, and THAT is a problem.


That's not a problem so long as a T1 frigate with two webs can sling a freighter into warp in ~4 seconds.

The only effort imbalance is between those who do get caught by gankers, and those who don't. And since the effort to not get caught is so very, very low, it's honestly surprising that we kill anybody at all.

I don't want to get into this argument with a famous bonehead, since logic is alien to him, but I have to point out, that not catching a freighter requires you to be super bad, super slow, super lazy, super stupid player. If you can't even do something that simple, eve should be not for you.
There is currently no sane effort which can prevent a bunch of specially trained F1 monkeys from ganking anything they want. There is currently no effort whatsoever aside from incredible F1 pressing skill involved in ganking anything you want.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#30 - 2015-07-03 12:07:14 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

There is currently no sane effort which can prevent a bunch of specially trained F1 monkeys from ganking anything they want. There is currently no effort whatsoever aside from incredible F1 pressing skill involved in ganking anything you want.

Working as intended.

You are not suppose to be 100% safe anywhere in New Eden, including highsec.

That said, the mechanics of highsec have never been safer. A small amount of effort will protect you from all but the most determined and dedicated attacker. But no matter what you do, you are vulnerable to the combined effort of a large group of other players.

This is how CCP intends it to be. You can stamp your feet and hurl insults all you want, but it won't change the basic fact that there is not suppose to be a 100%, fool-proof counter to ganking. That risk you fear from gankers is intentional and explicitly enabled by CCP. Accept that truth and your gaming experience will be a happier and less hate-filled one.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-07-03 12:25:22 UTC
FT Cold wrote:

It's not a bad idea if you're trying to move something valuable via freighter to bring a counter bumper along for the trip, too, if you can.

yaeh you could do that, but as you instawarp noone can be quick enough to bump you - you drop cloak and warp off 2 seconds later.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-07-03 12:37:40 UTC
It seems to me that the OP's problem is that he's operating in highsec.

Think about it guys...he seems aware (if still skeptical) of known safety measures like webbing and scouting. He insists his problem is in the rare case that doesn't work...and why is this? Because he can't shoot the bumping ships (or preemptively shoot the gankers, assuming they aren't too low in sec status) without Concord interference, the same Concord that provides the protection to the market he's hoping to engage with via a freighter full of goods.

The irony is killing me...and the freighter too, come to think of it.

Anyway, I believe the solution the OP is looking for is just to trade goods in somewhere other than highsec. Your escort team can clear the grid of enemies before the freighter shows up, so you don't have to fret over bumpers or Tornadoes hovering over you.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Anthar Thebess
#33 - 2015-07-03 13:06:39 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?


Not sure if you read all the way to the end but I do use webs and many other things recommended to avoid ganks. The problem with remote reps is that they can't be applied anywhere near as fast as the gankers can do damage. This is especially true for BS on Freighter ganks. That's why I suggested a module that causes your corpmate's ship to pop instead of the freighter.


The real problem about reps is that ganked ships use hull as primary tank. Remote hull reps are bad, and you always have much less logistic ships than ganker ships.

If you would have as many people repairing you as people shooting you then you can easily survive, especially when you fit tank , and haul stuff using your head.
Problem is that you will not get as many friends to guard your freighter and all freighters.

Base rule should be always fit triple bulkheads taking journey in a sec stat below 0.9 and don't carry insane amount of expensive stuff in your cargo.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-07-03 13:14:48 UTC
You could always fit a type resist amplifier on an armor freighter and try to get more repper than they have dps. It's more of a pain in the ass but OP was willing to commit 10-20 guys for this so who knows...
Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-07-03 13:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
safest method is not letting them bump you -> web into warp.

Using my approach wont leave bumbers any time to react as the freighter is basically in warp as it drops gate cloak.
Blapping the web daredevil would work but due to ins small signature, you'll lock freighter and apply webs faster than they can kill your webber, if done properly.

I wouldnt rely on tank of a freighter, nor can you always have escort of 20-30 dudes to protect your haul.
Anthar Thebess
#36 - 2015-07-03 14:16:26 UTC
Safe is also carrying up to 1 bil in a triple bulkheaded freighter.
T2 bulkheads and basic hull skills at lvl 5 are a must, using the faction bulkheads is also preferred over t2 versions

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#37 - 2015-07-03 14:54:06 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

There is currently no sane effort which can prevent a bunch of specially trained F1 monkeys from ganking anything they want.


Except actually being at the keyboard and flying with webs. That's pretty much a sure go.


Quote:

There is currently no effort whatsoever aside from incredible F1 pressing skill involved in ganking anything you want.


And there's even less effort in autopiloting. So the greater effort wins, working as intended.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-07-03 15:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Safe is also carrying up to 1 bil in a triple bulkheaded freighter.
T2 bulkheads and basic hull skills at lvl 5 are a must, using the faction bulkheads is also preferred over t2 versions

Empty bulkheaded freighters are routinely ganked. Why not if the gank is free? Even hauling nothing doesn't help.

Black Pedro wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:

There is currently no sane effort which can prevent a bunch of specially trained F1 monkeys from ganking anything they want. There is currently no effort whatsoever aside from incredible F1 pressing skill involved in ganking anything you want.

Working as intended.

You are not suppose to be 100% safe anywhere in New Eden, including highsec.

That said, the mechanics of highsec have never been safer. A small amount of effort will protect you from all but the most determined and dedicated attacker. But no matter what you do, you are vulnerable to the combined effort of a large group of other players.

This is how CCP intends it to be. You can stamp your feet and hurl insults all you want, but it won't change the basic fact that there is not suppose to be a 100%, fool-proof counter to ganking. That risk you fear from gankers is intentional and explicitly enabled by CCP. Accept that truth and your gaming experience will be a happier and less hate-filled one.


I do not argue with that. I do not say "I should be safe", but you never read so I will repeat it for you in very simple english: "eve should be unsafe for everyone, including gankers".

Right now gankers are effectively immune to loss because they only expose free ships with now free clones (yet another buff in super ganking buffing series). You can kill thousands of free ships and you deal no ISK damage. This is not right. Free ships should be removed from such activity. I'm not saying I should be always safe, but I should be safe from an opponent committing 100-1000 times less ISK to the field. Once gank ships stop being free, giving gankers losses would become meaningful, they will stop being immune to loss as they are now, which will make it almost feel like eve they do not play at the moment.

To complete the experience, we need some skill in the ganking. Right now they are arrogant enough to say that buying a few hundred catalysts in Jita is skill, fast-fitting them is skill, locking targets is skill, fleetwarping is skill, and the great synchronization and ultimate art of teamwork required to press F1 (probably using illegal input automation anyway) somewhat simultaneously is a quintessence of skill. What's next, logging accounts would become "skill"? Ganking needs some skill introduced badly to make it complete eve experience, and not some click-a-freighter theme park game.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#39 - 2015-07-03 16:01:18 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
I do not say "I should be safe", but you never read so I will repeat it for you in very simple english: "eve should be unsafe for everyone, including gankers".


There's nothing to stop people ganking the gankers. In the case of those who are -5 or worse, they're actually less safe than everyone else on account of there being no Concord penalty for shooting them.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-07-03 16:20:07 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
I do not say "I should be safe", but you never read so I will repeat it for you in very simple english: "eve should be unsafe for everyone, including gankers".


There's nothing to stop people ganking the gankers. In the case of those who are -5 or worse, they're actually less safe than everyone else on account of there being no Concord penalty for shooting them.


Once again, for people with Reading Comprehension skill tree completely missing: Ganker in a free ship with a free pod is immune to loss. So what if you gank him? He has a few more free ships and gets a new free pod, nothing has changed.

Since I know it takes a lot of repeating to get through to some people, here's even shorter version:
tl;dr You can kill thousands of free ships and do nothing, because free ships are free. As long as free ships are usable in ganking, gankers are immune to loss. This means they are perfectly safe, because they risk nothing. We need eve to be unsafe for everyone, so this safety needs to be removed.