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NPE feedback Q and A

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Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2015-07-02 22:09:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.


I'd like to see learning implants turn into fixed value fitting implants. So rather than %-based increase to CPU/PG like the Genolutions do, instead have a fixed +5 to +10 PG or +20 to +40 CPU value (scaled by the rarity/expense of the original learning implants). Values somewhere in that range, anyway. This would make it useful only for ships in the frigate/destroyer size, which is what newbies are using. In particular newbies could use some of the cheaper versions of these to make up some of the difference from lacking core fitting skills at all V's, lacking the ability to fit a MAPC2, etc.

Further, more fitting room is always an interesting thing for veterans to play with. Since fitting only goes so far, there will still be many cases where even die hard frigate vets are going to fit snake's or something else, so it's just a nice addition to the mix.
Aerasia
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2015-07-02 22:18:04 UTC
Ishukone Billboard wrote:
EVE not being simple as (insert name of bullshit you don't care anymore) is the reason im still playing it.
As long as you keep in mind that EVE being complex for confusion's sake is why an order of magnitude more people stopped playing it.

Mike Azariah wrote:
I understand what you are asking and I will modify the support to
I think you can do one better than that actually. Instead of auto-training High Speed Maneuvering for them, start the character off with those ranks trained. Use the tutorial/opportunity/hand-holding system to give them an MWD instead.

I.E.

  1. Go catch that Frigate. (teach "Approach" button)
  2. It was too fast, you failed.
  3. Here's an MWD - equip it in a midslot (teach fitting and the idea of prop mods)
  4. Congrats, you're amazing, etc, etc, etc. Follow up with turning MWDs off with scrams, or w/e.
Tyrendian Biohazard
The Bastards
Sedition.
#143 - 2015-07-02 22:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrendian Biohazard
Mike Azariah wrote:
Stuff


It addresses it, but I don't think its the right way to encourage character progression. Maybe my thought is that since the majority of the MMO industry is XP based and quests help you level, a lot of new players gravitate towards that style of play when its not necessary, or (probably) for most players, not even preferred. I recall during Rise's NPE presentation that 40% of new players stick to solo play/missions and a very large chunk of those players tend to leave after a month or so. I think reinforcement of that type of gameplay is a bad thing.

Twitch streamer and EVE NT tournament broadcaster.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#144 - 2015-07-02 22:22:26 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Tyrendian Biohazard wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Give SP for opportunities, not missions.



I still think it sends a mixed message

Go do this, go do this, go do this, get extra SP for the first few days. Then suddenly when you run out of opportunities to do, you're left with time based training. It might be greatly confusing for a new player, who is already dealing with MMO mechanics like anything out there, to think they are grasping one system, only to find out that is not how it works.

The same could be said if you were to give skills (like injecting) based on completing missions or opportunities.

I think there is enough mechanic differences for a new player coming into EVE that we shouldn't throw one at them, only to have it removed shortly after they start and potentially never see it again.


I understand what you are asking and I will modify the support to

Complete career mission or Opportunity
(That was great, you know it would have been a whole lot easier if you had trained high speed maneuvering. I have one a one shot cerebral uploader of that skill if you want to get a jump start on it. After that you will have to modify it via your skill queue. Most skills do not come with the jump starts and you can buy them in the local market)

So the lesson of skills is reinforced along whith a jump start to specific ones they need at the beginning in exchange for doing the mission or opportunity. Would that cover it?

m


I am a bit against the idea of giving players a way to earn extra skill points. My issue isn't new players earning those extra skillpoints..

Its the veterans doing it.

Anything that involves bonus skill points is a bit... dangerous to do because you'll set a trend. People will start asking for extra skill points revolving anything and everything. Were also talking about reducing the need for skill points in new players (but the first thing we tell them is that you have to endure what maybe torture to gain skill points to compete).

I'd rather an opportunity be an achievement that provides a reward that does not provide a benefit pve, pvp, or market wise to the player.

A Account Bound Skin, A Fireworks Launcher, Anchorable Santa Mobile Depot. Something that would make players want to do an achievement, not Require Them To Do It because skill points or die.

It cannot be mandatory, and anything that grants Bonus Skill points is mandatory.

I do not support bonus skillpoints for opportunities (It basically makes Everybody Who Starts an ALT Mandatory go through the newbie Tutorial Every Single Freaking Time with Every Single Character they have). Some of you altaholics aren't looking so happy to have to do every opportunity in Eve on every single one of your characters. You will because skillpoints, but you will hate it because you have to do the same mission/quest/action 100 times.

That type of forced mandatory herding is bad, for new players, veteran players, altaholics, roleplayers, etc etc.



Yaay!!!!
Spacemover
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2015-07-02 22:49:02 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

I understand what you are asking and I will modify the support to

Complete career mission or Opportunity
(That was great, you know it would have been a whole lot easier if you had trained high speed maneuvering. I have one a one shot cerebral uploader of that skill if you want to get a jump start on it. After that you will have to modify it via your skill queue. Most skills do not come with the jump starts and you can buy them in the local market)

So the lesson of skills is reinforced along whith a jump start to specific ones they need at the beginning in exchange for doing the mission or opportunity. Would that cover it?

m


Hey Mike,

perhaps we can even build in some lore like "mate we really need your support in this so we have this jump starter for you".

that would solve the question why you don´t have jump starter later - empire doesn´t need you to fly a cap ;)


@Rivr:

Sorry Rivr you just don´t get the point. compare eve to almost any other game and try to find out what most people in this thread are trying to tell you:
you don´t feel welcome in eve as newbie. it´s like "damn another new player go play lego and come back in x hours to really start the game" vs. "hey great you are here, "x" happendend we really need your help to do "y" can you please help us?"

don´t get me wrong bro but you are you are used to waiting. they can be trained to get to that point but right now it´s like calling dhl or the telekom. you are waiting like for ever for an information thats not that great and possibly wrong so you have to call and wait again. and while waiting to get a human person on the phone you just do other stuff. no wonder no one likes them.

Space
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#146 - 2015-07-02 22:53:02 UTC
The most amusing part of subjects like this is the posters getting a massive case of the gimmies. You can almost see their eyes shining "a million free xp", "automatic max-speed skilltraining for no drawback", "skillpoints for missions", "skillpoints for opportunities", "unallocated skillpoints", "skillpoint remaps", "gimme", "gimme", "gimme"!
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#147 - 2015-07-02 22:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: TheExtruder
i think one of the goals with NPE should be making the pilots more mobile and flexible in terms of movement and in terms of ability to quickly switch between careers 'on the go' because having your own spaceship as your base of operations is simply more intuitive and adventurous than a station.
one way of achieving such a goal could be a new type of rookie ship that is very mobile and enables new players to not have to dock so much to resupply or not having to refit their ship the traditional way, you still would have to dock to get the parts you bought but you can fit things whenever you want, including things you just looted from your kill.
uhnboy ghost
Corporation 98237776
#148 - 2015-07-02 23:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: uhnboy ghost
Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'.

A: NO! eve is hard/slow yes, but its good that it is hard/slow, it stops all the " wait, i cant get to top lvl in 3 weeks?" players out of eve.**

giving new players more sp whould only make it 0,0001% easyer and whould only give new players the impression that eve is a mutch faster game then it is, everything takes time and shulde take time..
do i like that it take 21 days to get cruiser lvl5? hell no but it forcing me to make well thought decision on what to skill and why, and that is something new players need to learn

and the only players that whulde really benefit from more start sp is ppl thats wants to make alt faster

its okey to make eve easyer by making them understand what they can do in this game after the opportunity/tutorials but giving them more sp is just point less

**the average age of eve player is alot higher then other games doto its not a fast game, just think what it whuld do to your corp chat/game if the average age of eve players was 12-13 old ( yes i know not all young ppl are needy and whiny trolls but hey look at the ppl in eve now and make them 50% more "stupid" thats what whoulde happend if eve was a easy/fast game

//uhnboy 84K probe scans in 2014 http://i.imgur.com/Uaid5iu.png
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#149 - 2015-07-02 23:16:42 UTC
another goal for NPE could be to provide higher degree of interaction between rookies, perhaps trading opportunities, mining opportunities, forming corporation opportunities. the question becomes, how to bring players together and how to empower rookies to be able to create meaningful content out of player interactions. what would bring rookies together? and how can they interact. i think one of the most powerful ways to learn things is by teaching it to others, or by sharing knowledge with others. but first you must establish a line of communication with 'others' before you can share something.
Alexis Nightwish
#150 - 2015-07-02 23:45:50 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
I'd be interested in seeing a couple of million unallocated SP assigned to a character when it joins a player run corporation for the first time. It would be a significant lure and more importantly, it would help give players a home with other people, who could (hopefully) advise how to allocate those SP depending on what they want to do... for example, indy skills would be different from combat skills.

No way. This is super abusable. CODE et al would just roll trial account characters, use the free SP on small hybrids and Gal Destroyer.

I'm all for starting new players with more SP, but only in the form of more skills, not as allocatable SP.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Sumeragy
Nemesis Logistics
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2015-07-02 23:46:05 UTC
+1 for this but ...

Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
- Just giving them skills for free ain´t gona help them keeping to play the game. They need the feeling "i ******* earned this I DID ID" Let them work for skills. Lets say for example that u can earn exp for the ONLY basic skills like Navigation, Warp Drive Operation. Skills that affects ships. But not the Weapon or the Ship skill itself. How they earned it, let it be mission or whatever let them grind for it while they can skill other skills making closing the gab to other players faster IF they want to do it.


Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
AGREE TOTALY, starting explanation to every new guy. Oh wait u had a hard time learning EvE itself now you want to understand the Skillpoints better. Start making an API key ......EveMon..........oh and.........(30 min) later now u can Calculate how your atributes should be for the first year !!

1. Atributes are to Hard to Learn and Calculate. Srsly i need a tool itself to get the calculation done.

- Find another stats for it like Learning Speed time.

2. Not everyone is using the Remap points. And if then this char is most likly a toon of a other player. No new player knows what he wants to fly. They make plans as they fly the ships they wanted to try out. So remaping and staying to the Plan is hard for a new Player. Then the moments comes where he enters a Corp. The Corp is mostly flying Amarr ships and the new guys Picked Caldari whit Rockets ....... change of plans. They need now Logistic and well change of planes ....


-As You see Atributes are not helping at all because u need to Calculate it down and STICK TO THE PLAN to make it worth. The Free choice is missing. So the Feature itself wont be used on beginning. And if they i asume they are alts of someone training for something only he was created for.


3. Ever heard this sentence bevore.." what fleet today uhh **** sry i have my expensiv implant set now cant risk it sry ..."

-Atributes and Implants for Atributes are srsly not needed. We had once Learning skills to learn faster. ( no joke i skilled them to 5) You removed them, do that same for Atributes and Implants Atributes. Skilling faster should help all players.


Soldari Orion
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2015-07-03 00:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldari Orion
I think you're on the right path.

I actually find attributes interesting - I just don't think they're consistent. I think there's a lot to gain by splitting them into "combat" and "non-combat" first and then prioritizing attributes based on that. Combat would notionally be Per/Wil early and Wil/Per as you advanced; Non-Combat would be Int/Mem early and Mem/Int late. For "crossover" and "core" skills, we'd push them to the "max" training rate (conceivably +5s with maximum attributes rate - maybe these become a separate attribute if that's what the code needs).

Oh, and remove Charisma from skills. Every skill that had Charisma should belong in "crossover", Combat, or Non-Combat. It's a simple system then, and it lets people still make the decision of implants versus no implants (a decision I believe has value). You want combat - get your two implants. Want non-combat - get your two implants. Want to work on your core skills, leadership skills, etc. - the crux of multiplayer and new player - get them quickly at max rate so you can provide content.

For the charisma slot - I think you could put a default rate increase implant into clones by default, and then change the charisma implants to also include this exact same rate increase. Essentially a "null" implant, and something you unplug and replace for sets of implants (perhaps an opportunities opportunity - a known state of having an implant in). Refund the market cost as current for these to anyone who has then plugged in. This also gives CCP a lever if they decide overall SP is being gained too quickly or too slowly.

Ultimately, I think a lot of the frustration is inconsistent attribute allocations for combat pilots. If I want to combat probe, have a t2 tank, anchor bubbles, fly faster as a combat pilot those all require charimsa, intelligence, or memory. There is no way I can be efficient without training across all 5 attributes.
TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#153 - 2015-07-03 00:59:51 UTC
Soldari Orion wrote:
I think you're on the right path.

I actually find attributes interesting - I just don't think they're consistent. I think there's a lot to gain by splitting them into "combat" and "non-combat" first and then prioritizing attributes based on that. Combat would notionally be Per/Wil early and Wil/Per as you advanced; Non-Combat would be Int/Mem early and Mem/Int late. For "crossover" and "core" skills, we'd push them to the "max" training rate (conceivably +5s with maximum attributes rate - maybe these become a separate attribute if that's what the code needs).

Oh, and remove Charisma from skills. Every skill that had Charisma should belong in "crossover", Combat, or Non-Combat. It's a simple system then, and it lets people still make the decision of implants versus no implants (a decision I believe has value). You want combat - get your two implants. Want non-combat - get your two implants. Want to work on your core skills, leadership skills, etc. - the crux of multiplayer and new player - get them quickly at max rate so you can provide content.

For the charisma slot - I think you could put a default rate increase implant into clones by default, and then change the charisma implants to also include this exact same rate increase. Essentially a "null" implant, and something you unplug and replace for sets of implants (perhaps an opportunities opportunity - a known state of having an implant in). Refund the market cost as current for these to anyone who has then plugged in. This also gives CCP a lever if they decide overall SP is being gained too quickly or too slowly.

Ultimately, I think a lot of the frustration is inconsistent attribute allocations for combat pilots. If I want to combat probe, have a t2 tank, anchor bubbles, fly faster as a combat pilot those all require charimsa, intelligence, or memory. There is no way I can be efficient without training across all 5 attributes.


i like what you wrote. but i think implants are generally a threat to the pvp aspect of the game and the value of implants should be toned down significantly (at least psychologically). i think if implants are taken out of the equation it will greatly increase the amount of player interactions and people will dare to do more pvp on impulse.

a potential solution to the psychological block could be to heighten the value of implants and make them included into your new clones for an x amount of times before you have to buy new implants. you basically dont lose your implants for an x amount of lives.
Count Szadek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2015-07-03 01:00:44 UTC
I actually like the whole career agent system. however, i feel that skills slow down the speed in which you can learn / complete. i would rather see rewards include un-allocated SP in order to speed train the skills required for missions. On top of that, I would also like to see something in game point players to the Epic Arc and possibly reward at the end a nice SP reward for first completion / under 35 Day Old Completion.
Montgomery Black
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2015-07-03 01:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Montgomery Black
Personally I think one of the main reasons why new players dont stay around (aside from the SP issue and long trains etc) is the lack of easily accessible fun content. PVE is not fun enough to keep new players... (compared to other games out there)

What makes EvE great is the meta game.. the conflicts between corporations, the hunt for targets with your corp mates, the large alliance vs alliance battles, the fun of being in a small gang where u depend on each other and the feeling that you can make a difference in the outcome and the outcome matters. eg.. losing your bling pvp ship/implants or losing your home are pretty big consquences... ones that you don t find in other MMOs.

What new players need is a hand hold introduction to this content and some incentives.

What I would like to see is the drifters or some other enity attack a few high sec systems..

Have it so only new players (new accounts not new alts) can contest these systems. The systems are a key bridge system between new players systems and the rest of EvE. If the drifters win control the system is shut down and until player control is reestablished the only routes to to the rest of new eden are 20-30 jumps. (doable but annoying enough to make players want to smash the drifters os the quick route is open again).

New players are rewarded with SP and ships for participating. Make it so its fleet only content. Need a minium of 4-5 guys working together to take on a Drifter fleet. Would work similar to incursions where you need to destoy several things in the system to maintain control.. and the drifters would reinforce so it would be a constant struggle. Sometimes the system is in player hands.. and the routes open.... sometimes Drifter have control and the way is shut.

Old players could contribute by co-ordinating with newer players and attacking key drifter staging facilities in new eden. Make it so if the staging system is held. its 10% easier for new players to take control of bridge system and new players earn 10% more SP.. but new player and older player attacks would need to be co-ordinated etc. These staing systems would be very high level content.. eg Drifters scram and pod. Fleets needed. Make it so the primary reward for older players is helping new players.... they might receive a special medal/badge (that is visible on their avatar etc) that is valid for 3 months of something.. dont turn it into another isk farm (incursions). Would only be the staging (old player) systems that pod/scram etc. New player bridge systems would be more forgiving.

Once new players hit the 3 month mark they are no longer eligable to participate in the bridge system content.

Also you need video cutscene introductions to this content. New players dont want the early 90s text based stuff.. they want the shiny trailer that they saw and got them interested in EvE in the first place.

WH Merc Services in AU TZ. Citadel defense / offense. More details see forum post - Link
Leon Razor
Measure Zero
#156 - 2015-07-03 01:40:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals.


At the very least, please change the non-combat Science (blueprint copying speed) prerequisite on the critical combat skill Thermodynamics to something in-space related like Energy Operation IV.

If you haven't read it, check out Suitonia's post on minor skill changes for better NPE: https://suitonia.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/my-little-things-skill-changes-to-make-younger-characters-more-competitive-in-pvp-earlier/
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2015-07-03 01:46:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We've seen many posts this week on starting skills and the NPE as a whole (especially on reddit :) so I thought you might like a small status update on these things.

Let's do it as a kind of FAQ format and if I miss something major let me know.

Q: 'Opportunities are bad, they've made the NPE much worse'
A: As you know, we did a lot of testing on this system and would not have pushed it out to 100% of new players if it was doing damage. That said, it isn't doing enormously better than the old tutorial and we think there is still lots of room for improvement. We have an iteration plan already in place which we will begin testing within the next couple weeks.

Q: 'Can we send new players to career agents since that's what veteran players are recommending anyway'
A: Yes. This is one of the changes on our plan to try and test very shortly. We will probably have an Opportunity to go to career agents somewhere early in the Opportunity path.

Q: 'Starting skills are a huge barrier, can we give a lot more to new players'
A: Yes. But this is not a simple change. You guys seem fairly agreed that the small amount of starting skills, combined with a high amount of 'must have' support and requirement skills, leads to some really icky barriers to participation for new players. We are inclined to agree and we are in the process of laying out a plan to address the problem. Nothing is set in stone yet but it seems likely that we will try and move new players towards starting with significantly more SP. Maybe between 1 and 2 million. It also seems likely that we will probably avoid any major skill reworks or skill removals. As this plan solidifies you will hear more from us.

Q: 'Attributes aren't very interesting, you should remove them'
A: Again, we agree. Team Size Matters discussed removing them on the o7 show (or some other public venue) awhile back and it's still something we are very interested in. We need to figure out a good way to handle all the learning implants in the game though, which is actually a difficult problem. If any of you have awesome ideas for how to handle it don't hesitate to make suggestions.

Each topic probably deserves more detail but I think waiting until things are slated for release to go deeper probably makes sense.

One last note: even if we aren't actively posting in these discussions on reddit or elsewhere, we are avid readers of community content and it helps us enormously to see your discussions (don't take that as a 'CCP PLS' posts are awesome though :P)

o/



TY Much Rise!


I've said it a few other times, I don't remember where, but I think it would be a HUGE benefit to new players to get more audio and video into the introduction process. You guys have shown you have the capability of doing it, especially with community support, but the huge wall of text introductions are not the way forward. Many of those walls of texts also leave out huge things, like 'activate the acceleration gate' in early missions. The time and effort spent on a video snippet based tutorial I personally believe would be a huge step in the right direction.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#158 - 2015-07-03 01:49:05 UTC
Any form of missions for SP or trained skills is a step in the wrong direction. Those automatically become mandatory things to do. Eve does not have character grinding and never should. It is built on a time-based progression model. Stay subscribed, keep progressing. This feature gets many players over a slump in available playing time and gives them something to look forward to when they return.

The challenge with the NPE is balancing giving the new player the opportunity to try out many different possibilities to see what sticks, with giving him some tools he can actually use, without railroading him through an optimum path. That is why I recommend starting all characters with certain core skills. Everyone's spaceships should have the same fitting room from the start, it's then up to the pilot to fit it, fly it, and make it better.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

TheExtruder
TheExtruder Corporation
#159 - 2015-07-03 02:38:29 UTC
i remember from my time playing mortal kombat x, i learned new characters by looking at youtube tutorials (some of which were recommended by my friends on steam). if you want to create a similar platform where players can teach other players, i imagine you need a different set of goals, such as:
- rookies need to be able to instantly try out and repeat what they see on the tutorial (perhaps a PvE scenario)
- it should be easy for video makers to give rookies an amazing experience of increased sense of advantage/edge over others, almost like finding a secret treasure. a high reward for those that want to win by being clever and analytical.
- rookies should at all times feel they have fast and easy access to a PvP scenario where they can apply their newly found edge/advantage
Montgomery Black
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2015-07-03 02:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Montgomery Black
FT Diomedes wrote:
Any form of missions for SP or trained skills is a step in the wrong direction. Those automatically become mandatory things to do. Eve does not have character grinding and never should. It is built on a time-based progression model. Stay subscribed, keep progressing. This feature gets many players over a slump in available playing time and gives them something to look forward to when they return.

The challenge with the NPE is balancing giving the new player the opportunity to try out many different possibilities to see what sticks, with giving him some tools he can actually use, without railroading him through an optimum path. That is why I recommend starting all characters with certain core skills. Everyone's spaceships should have the same fitting room from the start, it's then up to the pilot to fit it, fly it, and make it better.



Maybe.. but you need to incentivise fleeting up with others somehow.. Biggest problem aside from the SP gap is new players have no idea what to do. If I need to spend hours researching out of game finding out what is fun to do and then do a huge sp grind to get to there be competitive.. Im going to quit. Its that simple.

Alot of people need to be handheld at the start and told what to do.. you dont become a eve veteren who knows all the posiblilites and how to get there overnight... it take 6 months - 12 months atleast. Cause just giving them 'the tools' ala opportunites to find content on their own hasnt worked. They need a direction and a goal at the start. And that goal should be to get them into the social game as soon as possible.

Sure new players can mine or whatever or do missions.. but thats not going to keep them.. What will keep them is the social / team aspect. and it needs to be accesible.. so a new Player fleet vs drifters. is a good way to do this.. Incursions are popular for a reason.. Isk + social + challenge. This would be social + sp + isk + challenge.

They need something to inspire them... and to encourage them to work together... a battle for key systems vs Drifters to keep trade routes open where vets are barred so they wont take over and newbie ships and sp is sufficent (if they fleet up) could be a good start. and they get SP and ships as a reward..

Once they have been fighting drifter fleets for their first 3 months with other newbies.. maybe some of them will start a corp together or someone will find out about a cool null/low/wh corp and invite his new friends to all join together..

WH Merc Services in AU TZ. Citadel defense / offense. More details see forum post - Link