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Three New Team Play Anti-Gank Modules

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Ferrosan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-07-02 17:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ferrosan
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it. During Burn Amarr plenty of pilots tried to save freighters but (so far as I could tell) once a freighter was getting bumped around it was doomed because there was simply no way for friendly pilots to help. 300 Catalysts or some-odd disposable battleships in a quick blob will take out a freighter, no matter what you and 100 friends try to do to save it.

I propose three modules:

- Mass Applicator: Each module applied to the target reduces how far out of alignment it can be bumped, while increasing the time taken to align. IE: If 10-20 of your corpmates activate this module on your freighter, you can align eventually even if you're being bumped by gankers. It might take 5 times as long but you'll get there.

- Remote Warp Stabilizers: Each module adds one point of warp stabilization.

- Shield/Amour/Hull Sacrifice: Each module applied to target absorbs damage to the target of the specified type.

Possibly these modules should be restricted to apply only to certain ship types. Probably anything like this needs some risk or consequences to go with it too. Perhaps application of these modules give you a suspect timer, or lets you be attackable by the ganker's corp, or something like that. Highsec piracy requires a ganker to sacrifice their ship and xx minutes of time being red flashy, plus time to get sec status back up maybe, so let my corpmates choose to make the same sacrifice to get my high-value shipment through.

Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-07-02 17:26:27 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it. During Burn Amarr plenty of pilots tried to save freighters but (so far as I could tell) once a freighter was getting bumped around it was doomed because there was simply no way for friendly pilots to help. 300 Catalysts or some-odd disposable battleships in a quick blob will take out a freighter, no matter what you and 100 friends try to do to save it.

I propose three modules:

- Mass Applicator: Each module applied to the target reduces how far out of alignment it can be bumped, while increasing the time taken to align. IE: If 10-20 of your corpmates activate this module on your freighter, you can align eventually even if you're being bumped by gankers. It might take 5 times as long but you'll get there.

- Remote Warp Stabilizers: Each module adds one point of warp stabilization.

- Shield/Amour/Hull Sacrifice: Each module applied to target absorbs damage to the target of the specified type.

Possibly these modules should be restricted to apply only to certain ship types. Probably anything like this needs some risk or consequences to go with it too. Perhaps application of these modules give you a suspect timer, or lets you be attackable by the ganker's corp, or something like that. Highsec piracy requires a ganker to sacrifice their ship and xx minutes of time being red flashy, plus time to get sec status back up maybe, so let my corpmates choose to make the same sacrifice to get my high-vluae shipment through.

Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#3 - 2015-07-02 17:36:42 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it.


Instalock 4 web loki or minmatar recon.
Counter to being bumped is to be off grid before they bump you, and applying this ~4s after the freighter breaks cloak puts you in warp on tick 5, well before the first bump arrives.
/thread

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Ferrosan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-07-02 17:38:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?


Not sure if you read all the way to the end but I do use webs and many other things recommended to avoid ganks. The problem with remote reps is that they can't be applied anywhere near as fast as the gankers can do damage. This is especially true for BS on Freighter ganks. That's why I suggested a module that causes your corpmate's ship to pop instead of the freighter.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-07-02 17:42:22 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?


Not sure if you read all the way to the end but I do use webs and many other things recommended to avoid ganks. The problem with remote reps is that they can't be applied anywhere near as fast as the gankers can do damage. This is especially true for BS on Freighter ganks. That's why I suggested a module that causes your corpmate's ship to pop instead of the freighter.


How damn long did it take you to web your freighter for a bump to arrive in time?
Ferrosan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-07-02 17:44:05 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it.


Instalock 4 web loki or minmatar recon.
Counter to being bumped is to be off grid before they bump you, and applying this ~4s after the freighter breaks cloak puts you in warp on tick 5, well before the first bump arrives.
/thread


I use a Hyena to do exactly this. But I can only do it once. What do I do if 10 "insta-lock" enemies prevent me from warping for 10 seconds until the first bump hits? I can't bring 10 friends to do it any faster.

For every anti-gank tactic I've ever been told to use, an attacking corp can just bring more numbers and beat it.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#7 - 2015-07-02 17:45:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?


Not sure if you read all the way to the end but I do use webs and many other things recommended to avoid ganks. The problem with remote reps is that they can't be applied anywhere near as fast as the gankers can do damage. This is especially true for BS on Freighter ganks. That's why I suggested a module that causes your corpmate's ship to pop instead of the freighter.


How damn long did it take you to web your freighter for a bump to arrive in time?

If not using a range bonused hull, or waiting to hit the time when a single web will initiate warp, on a non-prop cruiser with no scan res mods, it can take the 8s needed for a well placed bump mach to burn from gate to bump freighter.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-07-02 17:49:03 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
Disclaimer: I think highsec ganking is a really exciting part of EVE, and so far I've managed (on my mains) never to lose a freighter. I do love the thrill of going through Niarja wondering if I'll be next, scouting ahead, using webs to warp quickly, etc. I just always feel that if a large group can kill anything just through numbers, why can't a large group save something just through numbers?


How about using what is already in game like webs to sling in warp and reps to prevent the kill?


Not sure if you read all the way to the end but I do use webs and many other things recommended to avoid ganks. The problem with remote reps is that they can't be applied anywhere near as fast as the gankers can do damage. This is especially true for BS on Freighter ganks. That's why I suggested a module that causes your corpmate's ship to pop instead of the freighter.


How damn long did it take you to web your freighter for a bump to arrive in time?

If not using a range bonused hull, or waiting to hit the time when a single web will initiate warp, on a non-prop cruiser with no scan res mods, it can take the 8s needed for a well placed bump mach to burn from gate to bump freighter.


He said he want his 10-20 corpmate to be able to counter a gank. If 10-20 dudes can't cover the possible landing point around a gate, no module will ever save him.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#9 - 2015-07-02 17:51:00 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Ferrosan wrote:
It seems to me that if a corporation of 10 (or 300) players wanted to be sure a freighter got through Niarja there's really no way for them to team up and do it.


Instalock 4 web loki or minmatar recon.
Counter to being bumped is to be off grid before they bump you, and applying this ~4s after the freighter breaks cloak puts you in warp on tick 5, well before the first bump arrives.
/thread


I use a Hyena to do exactly this. But I can only do it once. What do I do if 10 "insta-lock" enemies prevent me from warping for 10 seconds until the first bump hits? I can't bring 10 friends to do it any faster.

For every anti-gank tactic I've ever been told to use, an attacking corp can just bring more numbers and beat it.

They lose 10 ships to concord, pre-load concord on grid and GCC 10 of their pilots. They have now doubled the number of pilots they lose ships for, minimum and given you a semi-valid complaint.
Hyena with 4 webs should be putting you in warp in <5s. the ~12km from gate to emergence takes ~8s in a nano fit mach with links and a heated DS MWD, which means you should be out 3s+ before they bump, as links, heat and deadspace are all uncommon on bump machs.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#10 - 2015-07-02 18:41:21 UTC
the way to avoid a 10-man gank squad (or more) is by having remote eyes in the system, like an alt in a noob ship, who can tell you - there's 10-20 known gankers, and the place is littered with concord

hmmmm, might be a good idea to avoid aufay today......
intel and common sense is your counter, if not, nothing will save you

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Ferrosan
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-07-02 19:00:39 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
the way to avoid a 10-man gank squad (or more) is by having remote eyes in the system, like an alt in a noob ship, who can tell you - there's 10-20 known gankers, and the place is littered with concord

hmmmm, might be a good idea to avoid aufay today......
intel and common sense is your counter, if not, nothing will save you


Again, read my post. I do this, so does anyone with half a brain. This is NOT my point.

I really don't understand the objections that say "the best way to avoid getting ganked is not to play". I heard taunts in local during Burn Amarr about how so-and-so lost their freighter because they were too stupid to read the forums and know it was happening that weekend. Shippers don't get to play for a weekend because Goons are making content those days? Bravo for Goons making content, but why does that have to mean shippers have no option but to just stay docked? What about a 100-man corp that wants to be part of this content and Twitch getting a 10B ISK shipment past 300 Cats in spite of Burn Amarr? What tools do they have to do this and create content?

Answer: None.

A few Machs, maybe a few extra insta-lock points to screw the "web your friend" trick, and that freighter is going down. You might get lucky and get to warp in 4s using a few webs before they stop you, but if that "run away" trick doesn't work, there's NOTHING you and your 100 friends can do. Your only real option is to scout ahead and not play because a ganker corp has decided it's their turn to play. How about making it so there's an actual fight, or some actual strategy to getting through pirates other than "go home and mine for the weekend until it's safe".

I don't want a get-out-of-gank-free card. I want to bring 10-20 people to a 10-man ganker trap and get my freighter through in some interesting, skill-based, strategy-based way. I can't do that today.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-07-02 19:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Ferrosan wrote:
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
the way to avoid a 10-man gank squad (or more) is by having remote eyes in the system, like an alt in a noob ship, who can tell you - there's 10-20 known gankers, and the place is littered with concord

hmmmm, might be a good idea to avoid aufay today......
intel and common sense is your counter, if not, nothing will save you


Again, read my post. I do this, so does anyone with half a brain. This is NOT my point.

I really don't understand the objections that say "the best way to avoid getting ganked is not to play". I heard taunts in local during Burn Amarr about how so-and-so lost their freighter because they were too stupid to read the forums and know it was happening that weekend. Shippers don't get to play for a weekend because Goons are making content those days? Bravo for Goons making content, but why does that have to mean shippers have no option but to just stay docked? What about a 100-man corp that wants to be part of this content and Twitch getting a 10B ISK shipment past 300 Cats in spite of Burn Amarr? What tools do they have to do this and create content?

Answer: None.

A few Machs, maybe a few extra insta-lock points to screw the "web your friend" trick, and that freighter is going down. You might get lucky and get to warp in 4s using a few webs before they stop you, but if that "run away" trick doesn't work, there's NOTHING you and your 100 friends can do. Your only real option is to scout ahead and not play because a ganker corp has decided it's their turn to play. How about making it so there's an actual fight, or some actual strategy to getting through pirates other than "go home and mine for the weekend until it's safe".

I don't want a get-out-of-gank-free card. I want to bring 10-20 people to a 10-man ganker trap and get my freighter through in some interesting, skill-based, strategy-based way. I can't do that today.



I am 99% sure that if you bring 14 friends in scimitars and 1 friend in a vulture, they will be able to out rep any 10 man gank trap

EDIT: Sorry, 13 friends in scimitars, 1 friend in a rapier/huginn, and 1 friend in a claymore with shield and web range links. My bad

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#13 - 2015-07-02 19:34:41 UTC
2 webs is enough to instawarp...

[Loki, HIGHsec 4 * T2 link loki booster and prober]
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Inertial Stabilizers II

Command Processor I
Command Processor I
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

[empty high slot]
Armored Warfare Link - Damage Control II
Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Core Probe Launcher I, Sisters Core Scanner Probe

Medium Targeting System Subcontroller II
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller II
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I

Loki Defensive - Warfare Processor
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers
Loki Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Loki Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector

is my webbing ship... Feel free to copy it
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-07-02 19:37:58 UTC
I'd pop that with a nado instead of the freighter lol
Black Pedro
Mine.
#15 - 2015-07-02 20:46:00 UTC
Ferrosan wrote:
I really don't understand the objections that say "the best way to avoid getting ganked is not to play". I heard taunts in local during Burn Amarr about how so-and-so lost their freighter because they were too stupid to read the forums and know it was happening that weekend. Shippers don't get to play for a weekend because Goons are making content those days? Bravo for Goons making content, but why does that have to mean shippers have no option but to just stay docked? What about a 100-man corp that wants to be part of this content and Twitch getting a 10B ISK shipment past 300 Cats in spite of Burn Amarr? What tools do they have to do this and create content?

Answer: None.

A few Machs, maybe a few extra insta-lock points to screw the "web your friend" trick, and that freighter is going down. You might get lucky and get to warp in 4s using a few webs before they stop you, but if that "run away" trick doesn't work, there's NOTHING you and your 100 friends can do. Your only real option is to scout ahead and not play because a ganker corp has decided it's their turn to play. How about making it so there's an actual fight, or some actual strategy to getting through pirates other than "go home and mine for the weekend until it's safe".

I don't want a get-out-of-gank-free card. I want to bring 10-20 people to a 10-man ganker trap and get my freighter through in some interesting, skill-based, strategy-based way. I can't do that today.

That's Eve: you are not suppose to be 100% safe. No matter if given whatever buffs you are begging for, if The Mittani wants your ship dead he can send 200 Tornados to alpha you off the field. You should never be guaranteed to be able move something safely.

You do have options though. DSTs can be made really gank resistant as well as bump proof. Your hundred friends can split the cargo up amongst tanked T3 cruisers or battleships. Or a just a handful of them can gank the bumpers off the field. There are a multitude of things you can do to save and protect a freighter from gankers, and there are even more to avoid them in the first place. But none of them guarantees you success.

You are not entitled to absolute safety your post indicates you crave. If you can't handle that concept, you should consider another game. You are also not entitled to take your massively slow industrial ship into an active war zone and expect it to survive - use the right ship for the job as CCP has given you plenty of hauling tools other than a freighter.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2015-07-02 21:12:28 UTC
Why do caps and supers need the buff?

Why should your 100 people be able to get past 300? If you are outnumbered three to one, why should you be able to 'win' so easily?

Why should larger numbers of apparently better organised and co-ordinated players lose out to smaller groups with worse co-ordination?
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-07-02 23:07:45 UTC
I've never had a problem web boosting, with the same inty scouting any system 2 jumps ahead and returning to boost. If it looks too risky, you just gotta wait it out. Drop you load and return to start for another, if doing multiple runs.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#18 - 2015-07-03 00:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Quote:


I don't want a get-out-of-gank-free card. I want to bring 10-20 people to a 10-man ganker trap and get my freighter through in some interesting, skill-based, strategy-based way. I can't do that today.


Wow. Go through low sec. Seriously. If you have 20 guys to escort you, go a few jumps through low sec and bypass the bottle necks.

If you cant then; interesting, skill based strategies still exist.

- keep yourself informed
- Scout
- Tank
- Web
Etc etc.

CCP dont need to feed you yet another way to fight Off a gank when hundreds if not thousands of freighters pass through gank systems everyday without a scratch.

You're talking like you deserve a fighting chance when you take a fat and slow pinata through an area where hundreds of players are putting a concerted effort to attack any easy target. Well sorry bub, but you really dont. In those situations you put your hands together and pray to your favourite deity that your number doesnt come up.

Or you can do some research and ask a good scout to help you. Or split your cargo into DSTs. Or haul to a different market. Or wait it out. Or hire a professional. And you know what? Those are interesting choices.

Edit, like instead of 20 guys, get 20 DSTs or 10 DST's with 10 webbers.

Lol

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#19 - 2015-07-03 01:13:27 UTC
I like how at least one of the OP's ideas more or less completely break the game. And I really like how said game breaking ideas are being proposed to counter a complete non-problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-07-03 01:39:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I like how at least one of the OP's ideas more or less completely break the game. And I really like how said game breaking ideas are being proposed to counter a complete non-problem.



I wouldn't say non-problem. It is a problem. I just can't think of a way to 'fix' it without breaking the sandbox, so I don't propose any. But there is a definite imbalance between the amount of effort and material a 'defender' has to put into anti-ganking as opposed to the effort an 'attacker' has to put into ganking, and THAT is a problem.

Shoot, I was autopiloting ships and pods around the other day, ships that I knew wouldn't be worth ganking, and then the pods back to get more. I named my pods as 'Empty. Seriously' every time and still got pod killed 4 times. Didn't bother me as I'd already set my home stations and the clones were empty, as I said, but it IS a bit on the silly side how easy and relatively effortless it is to gank as opposed to anti-gank. Anti-ganking is possible, don't misunderstand what I'm saying, it is definitely possible. It's just not proportionate.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
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