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Dev blog: Feedback on the new Overview Brackets

First post First post
Author
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#281 - 2015-06-30 16:52:36 UTC
[I'm an old player considering whether to start actively playing again]

I haven't read through every page yet.

However, just looking at the feedback devblog:

"we wanted to increase the skill ceiling of reading the grid at a glance, so that players who learned the expanded set of icons had a distinct battlefield advantage."

Really? One of the goals is to deliberately make the overview *harder* to understand?!

Surely the point of the overview is to make it *easier* to understand.

"Ships (Triangular)
Structures (Rectangular)
Celestial Bodies (circular)"

Ok, I could understand that.
*Except* not all ships are triangular!
The example just below in the devblog shows a diamond carrier and a (basically) diamond customs office.

What do I want the overview to tell me about the surroundings?

Is something shooting at me?
If so, is it small big or huge?
If not, I have time to look more thoroughly.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2015-06-30 17:12:26 UTC
I'm staying subbed because that's the leveling mechanic. My hope is to wake up to an awesome, popular EVE one day. I still have five years to go before my characters hit 200 million SP, so.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#283 - 2015-06-30 17:38:40 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I'm staying subbed because that's the leveling mechanic. My hope is to wake up to an awesome, popular EVE one day.

I too, am banking on this.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2015-06-30 18:00:57 UTC
Vila eNorvic
#285 - 2015-06-30 20:09:29 UTC
Axl Borlara wrote:
*Except* not all ships are triangular!

And not all triangles are ships (e.g. beacons).

Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#286 - 2015-07-01 03:25:28 UTC
Jessica Serrato wrote:
Well, 2 account cancelled.....wonder if they going to get the point. I cited the development blog and CCP Surge as the reason. I might come back if changes are made and CCP Surge offers an apology for that post, maybe.



I cited the icons in all three of mine, CCP will never apologize for a mistake, never have and never will.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#287 - 2015-07-01 03:39:34 UTC
Dangeresque Too wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
Cleanse Serce wrote:

CCP won't go back, deal with it.

Then i will not come back to game anymore, deal with it, and no you can't have my stuff, let it dust in stations.
Yuppers, 3 accounts here that aren't renewing and expire within a month... and I'm keeping my hundreds of billions to make quite a dust bunny farm as well, maybe eventually I'll have dust dragons... Maybe we can coordinate stations so our dust farms can hang out?


Two of mine are already gone, this one has a few more days and I'll probably never re-sub any of my accounts again, CCP has pretty much killed my play style with some of the changes over the past year and the icon changes pushed me over the top so may as well quit.

I'm not far from 100 bill in ISK between all my accounts not counting 2 supers and a titan on holding toons that have not been subbed in years.

Also ROLL BACK.!

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#288 - 2015-07-01 03:41:26 UTC
Lisa Gentilette wrote:
Probably said but I'm so disappointed: this was NOT the dev blog I was looking for.

You TOTALLY IGNORED the complaints by those with a visual handicap. Being it colour blindness or bad eye sight.

And then this is downright condescending and insulting to your loyal customers:

CCP wrote:

As pilots undocked expecting their familiar foes to be square brackets and crosses they unexpectedly came under attack by chevrons, diamonds, and house-shaped adversaries armed to the teeth. Some were so spooked and disoriented they began to fire on any geometric symbols in their vicinity. Others believed they were being attacked by their own warp bubbles and returned fire… Those that managed to adapt quickly in the early days of the great Iconocalypse of 2015 certainly profited handsomely from the confusion it sowed.


It's good to read that you feel this is all a big fat joke to you.




I can only respond to this in one way, 2 accounts down, this one to follow.



I'm with ya man, three of mine will be gone in a few days as well.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#289 - 2015-07-01 06:45:02 UTC
About the mods, and the overview. It might bother some people that a mod gives them a different experience from others who don't use one, etc. The information in the overview in particular is ripe, begging, for something to be done with it. It's raw telemetry that is vomited out onto a table... raw. If the client is openly displaying that information, what's the problem with integrating it into a mod that is more expressive. Shouldn't that happen with raw data anyway?
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2015-07-01 08:07:29 UTC
I would ask for the 'stuff' of the folks leaving forever but I figure they are mad and don't wish to donate to Operation Magic School Bus which is made to help the new players coming in at the moment others are storming out the door.

Rollback is probably not going to happen.

Simplification and logic for the new icons and refinement will. That is what sort of feedback I can take to them.

But good on you for citing why you quit when you quit. It does help those of us who stubbornly stay behind, believe it or not.

Icons is not over, not yet. Not in my books.

But if you absolutely positively are LEAVING, I am not asking for your stuff for my own profit but for helping the new players.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Ahed Sten
#291 - 2015-07-01 08:14:04 UTC
Quote:
Simplification and logic for the new icons and refinement will.


Maybe it's because it's 5am and I've been awake all night, or maybe I'm not the only one that finds this statement vague.

Elaborate please.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2015-07-01 08:43:46 UTC
Ahed Sten wrote:
Quote:
Simplification and logic for the new icons and refinement will.


Maybe it's because it's 5am and I've been awake all night, or maybe I'm not the only one that finds this statement vague.

Elaborate please.


Nah, It is late here as well so likely I was less than clear.

If there is an overlap that makes it counter intuitive or breaks the patterns then it needs to be fixed. Say a beacon that looks like a ship or drones not instantly identifiable as such, that sort of thing. That breaks the logic and is easily argued convincingly.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Ahed Sten
#293 - 2015-07-01 16:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahed Sten
Quote:
Say a beacon that looks like a ship or drones not instantly identifiable as such, that sort of thing. That breaks the logic and is easily argued convincingly.


Ok.

I don't think that the issue here is determining whether or not there are inconsistencies in the icons. Many posters before me have shown that not all the icons follow the strict formula of [Triangles for ships, rectangles for structures and circles for celestials.] How does a diamond look like a triangle?

Unfortunately what it all comes down to is subjective opinion. You may agree that the icons are fine while I may not.

If CCP was willing to make changes to the problem icons, how do they begin to go about gathering the information necessary to make said changes? What icons do they change? What do they change them to?

Do they speak to their CSM members?
Do they take a forum poll?

If there were to be any changes made, I would assume that the decision to act would be decided on how much of the Eve playerbase actually wants a change. Neither of the two options listed above would provide accurate statistics, as in either case, they'd be canvassing opinions from a very small part of the community; those that despise the new icons, and have gone out of their way to make their opinions heard by posting here on the forums or by bringing it to your attention.

Nothing short of an in-game poll would provide the "Yay/Nay" feedback required to make this happen, and that's only to determine who actually likes or dislikes the icons. The process of conceptualizing a better set of icons and implementing it into the game would require yet more work.

So aside from posting about how dissatisfied we are on the forums, aside from asking for rollbacks or the ability to customize our own Overview, (which would solve everyone's problems for the next decade,) how do you propose we proceed?

I'm all for due process, but if we actually knew what that due process was (Or better yet, knew that there actually was a process to begin with,) it might make it easier to go about this in a constructive manner. Presently we're all just doing the only thing we know how to do, which is the only thing that CCP has enabled us to do: Whine on the forums.


To be completely clear, despite my asking for it I don't expect a rollback. This issue seems to have generated a fraction of the tears that the jump changes did and nobody got anywhere back then, either. It's a shame, really. CCP is a business that can rightfully [legally] make their own business decisions, but they should be accountable to their playerbase. Whether or not these changes are wanted by the majority of the playerbase is not something I can comment on, but I don't realistically see them making an effort to get this information. I'm hoping that they'll surprise me.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#294 - 2015-07-01 19:22:48 UTC
Ahed Sten wrote:
To be completely clear, despite my asking for it I don't expect a rollback. This issue seems to have generated a fraction of the tears that the jump changes did and nobody got anywhere back then, either. It's a shame, really.


They are slightly different ways of making people not want to play the game. Jump changes took away a type of game play, where people could find another theoretically. The UI changes remove the ability to play the game at all for some people. Regardless of where you stand on the jump changes, its still a better rationale to try and edit one play style to try and make another one viable, i.e you cant play your way, rather than just essentially blanket disabling the UI for people with less than perfect sight, and saying you cant play at all.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Diablo Vertias
Fenrir's Dogs of War
#295 - 2015-07-02 00:03:30 UTC
The icons on the overview , now are alot more confusing but , can adopt to em ,

but what i can't adopt to is the icons for the ship wreacks , as i can't see the damned diffrence between a empthy ship wreack , or a full one . the icons are simply way way to small .

in that area of all the icon's the old one's there where a helleva lot better then the new one's are , those 2 icons are the only one's i whould like to have changed back to old , as iv got to sit whit my face frikking 1 cm away from screen to see the diffrence between em , and whit the old , one that wasen't a problem .

the other icons ill prolly learn to adopt to sooner or later .

thats all iv got to say , so Good old CCP be as kind as to atleast change the ship wreack icon's bk . to the old , i dont wanna go blind , or get some other odd eye condition . due to haveing to sit whit my face in the screen.

thx.
Ahed Sten
#296 - 2015-07-02 02:11:37 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Ahed Sten wrote:
To be completely clear, despite my asking for it I don't expect a rollback. This issue seems to have generated a fraction of the tears that the jump changes did and nobody got anywhere back then, either. It's a shame, really.


They are slightly different ways of making people not want to play the game. Jump changes took away a type of game play, where people could find another theoretically. The UI changes remove the ability to play the game at all for some people. Regardless of where you stand on the jump changes, its still a better rationale to try and edit one play style to try and make another one viable, i.e you cant play your way, rather than just essentially blanket disabling the UI for people with less than perfect sight, and saying you cant play at all.



I agree with you. Maybe I used a bad example to illustrate my point, but what I meant was that there have been compelling reasons to make changes or rollbacks many times in the past, either over game mechanics or UI changes, and CCP just sat there twiddling their thumbs giving us the same old "Eve is a harsh, unforgiving place" bullshit line that they periodically throw out there in place of a "**** you."

Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2015-07-02 04:01:56 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I would ask for the 'stuff' of the folks leaving forever but I figure they are mad and don't wish to donate to Operation Magic School Bus which is made to help the new players coming in at the moment others are storming out the door.

Rollback is probably not going to happen.

Simplification and logic for the new icons and refinement will. That is what sort of feedback I can take to them.

But good on you for citing why you quit when you quit. It does help those of us who stubbornly stay behind, believe it or not.

Icons is not over, not yet. Not in my books.

But if you absolutely positively are LEAVING, I am not asking for your stuff for my own profit but for helping the new players.

m


I am 99% sure I'm gone for good, my play style has been wrecked by CCP as I mainly enjoy cap/super/titan pvp and since I can't move my ships to other locations as needed they have been setting collecting space dust from frustration.

There have been other changes that hurt my play style as well but I held on hoping things would get better for players like myself but to date they have only gotten worse, the icon changes that taunt people like myself that have bad eyesight was the deal breaker (yes I gave feedback on sisi about how bad they are but all feedback was ignored), I haven't really played Eve much since CCP broke my play style anyway so I'll put my 45 bux a month towards other games.

New players could not set in most of my ships so I'm not giving them to anybody who has to train for years to pilot them correctly, I have already given away billions to good friends that I have made in this game (you know who you are!), as well as all of my carriers and PLEX, I'm holding onto all of my collectors ships/stuff and my BPO collection as I may give my son an account or two when he gets old enough to understand the game (if Eve lasts that long and if he really wants to play). I've decided to keep the two 200+ mill SP toons and the three super/titan holding toons to give to my boy on spread out special occasions that has yet to be determined, I'm hoping he will enjoy Eve as much as I used too.

I have loved playing Eve for over 12 years now and I know I'll miss it for sure but since there is no way I can play with those horrid icons I have no choice but leave.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.

Katana Seiko
Made in Germany
#298 - 2015-07-02 10:29:27 UTC
Wait wait wait.. Did I just see that right?

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/67311/1/cheatsheet.jpg

NPC Titan!? Shocked
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
Red Serpent Alliance
#299 - 2015-07-03 06:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Orm Magnustat
Alea wrote:

............................................
I have loved playing Eve for over 12 years now and I know I'll miss it for sure but since there is no way I can play with those horrid icons I have no choice but leave.


It really pains me to read posts like this and look at CCP how they play with themselves, promoting change for changes sake and actually having no plan or path for a good portion of their players that actually carried the game for such a long time...

SadSadSad
Jessica Serrato
Serrato Collective
#300 - 2015-07-03 17:55:53 UTC
Well one account is over in 3 days, the other is going to take another 54 Days......but I won't be renewing unless something major happens to fix this.....

As far as the "This is still being tweaked" arguement.....2 things

1. You don't release something like this on the regular server if it still needs to be tweaked...helpful hint in tweaking....no one wants to try to decipher an icon from 100+ possiblities

2. Current state....its a turd.....and you can polish a turd all you want.....it still a turd