Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This really is why I agree with the assessment that local, not cloak, is the problem.

AFK cloaking is just not all that awesome. I do it a lot, I do it mostly because if I have to go dock up every time diner is ready, or I want to make a fridge run, then exploration gets pretty ridiculous. "Yes I will be right down to open the door, just let me jump back through this three wormhole chain and dock up"

But critically an AFK cloaker:
- is not making isk
- is not getting kills
- is not even getting much intel (if he is not watching the screen....)

He just isn't a big deal, if the concern is his disproportionate presence then, remove his visible presence. Problem solved. I am always in favor of interesting mechanics, but to be honest cloaks do have weaknesses and there are players who exploit them. Its not easy, and it shouldn't be, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

On a fundamental level, I see no problem with solutions involving removal and delay from local. That said, I do like the idea that a cloaker can see local and even talk in it.

Also I do really like some of the mechanics people have proposed for local for this very issue:
Local is based on a beacon, maybe story wise, the beacon can work with the stargate. So:

1 You jump in, or dock/undock you get instantly placed/removed from local.
2 You wormhole in/out or cloak/decloak beacon needs to find you or time you out. Delayed entrance/removal from local.
3 If anyone speaks in local, they instantly connect to local and/or show up in even the delayed locals of others (its a broadcast)

AFK cloakers can no longer terrorize anyone, cloakers willing to put even a tiny bit of work in can be even more terrifying or provide even better intelligence.

Dude's who refuse to fight....you mean like PvE pilots who always run?

How about we have a timer on your PvE ass when you dock/POS up. 10 minutes you are ejected into the waiting hands of those who want to shoot you?

But also critically is not there to do any of those things. He is fully effective in what he is there for.

It is a fair point to say that the PvE pilot won't stay to fight either, though I know a few who will reship and try to meet you in a ship that actually can fight. Of course that causes all sorts of shoe on the other foot problems- not that I am blaming them either. There is no reason to fight, nothing in space is worth your ship.

The problem needs resolved on many levels. It has nothing to do with Local and everything to do with having no stake in a loss.

It's harassment of an entirely legal type.

It's a very bad game mechanic, but it's not outside the nature of the game.

In part.

The fear isn't irrational.

If touching one red object in 1000 caused instant death, with no way to discern which were deadly and which were not, people would avoid going anywhere near any red object.

The cloaking problem is the same. AFK or not, there is no way to determine which may be dangerous. That would be fine if they were not completely safe until they decided to become dangerous.

I agree that the real problem are the game concepts that place PvE activities as the primary targets of PvP players rather than encouraging player conflict and providing reasons to undock and fight in combat ships.

The core problem on the cloaker side is lack of available targets. So they afk to prevent their targets from evading. It's a bad mechanic. Creating PvE that put actual value in space to fight over would help with this.

But even if that were fixed, cloaks will remain unbalanced and contrary to the core design of EVE until they can be hunted down as actively as anyone else.

That is still a false equivalence.

The cloaked ship can hunt while cloaked. They can't directly strike, but they can stay cloaked until the second they begin their attack. While cloaked they can follow their prey, scout to insure at least a few moments to drive home their attack, and gather Intel on the exact conditions the encounter will begin in. I have no issue with a cloak providing an advantage at keeping initiative, but the sheer impunity that exists currently is completely out of balance.

Those docked or in POS shields are far more limited in action, and are much more limited in the excercise of initiative in combat. Those structures do grant opportunity to catch people coming and going, as well as providing certain knowledge of their location. It is impossible to hunt from within them in any way unless the enemy flies right up in range of the stationary guns. Comparing structures to ship modules is comparing apples to orangutans. The considerations and balancing factors are completely different, and favor the cloak in any case.

If that level of safety came in the form of a deployable shield or something with a limited duration of invincibility (hour or less), which could be scanned, investigated, monitored or camped just like the outpost or POS you claim equivalence with, then I would agree that it was a tool to be used as you suggest- something to keep you safe when something comes up and you are in hostile space.

I have said before that removing cynos from cloaks would be a reasonable halfway point. At least an informed decision could be made, even with limited info.... That cloaked ship could be anything, but it's just one of anything.

I still don't believe it would be in keeping with the overall goal of EvE with non consensual PvP being the risk for all pilots in space at all times, but limiting the power of a cloaked ship to being just one cloaked ship would be a start.

Yeah, the expectation of risk to a group of people, especially ones active enough to set up all those assets, seems improbable.

Especially from one guy in a cheaply equipped frigate, as you described it.
If they clearly understood how trivial a threat he was, they would be far less likely to fear him.

The version I hear suggested for this disparity, most often, is that they believe he also represents a sizable group of people.
Since PvE ships lack reinforcement timers, they expect his group of people will show up while theirs is offline.

Except that stations and POS shields are specifically designed to be safe and are not an example of being in open space, much less hostile space. It's false equivalence to claim cloaks are anything like stations or POS. In addition those structures are not hidden, and can be camped, presenting at least some danger to the people coming and going, as well as dangers from awoxing, and long term dangers of being destructible or lost.

One of the most fundamental aspects of EvE is that any ship in open space is subject to nonconsensual PvP. Cloaks violate that in every meaningful way while still allowing the user to project an effectively unlimited threat, gather Intel and hunt down others in complete safety until the moment of the first strike.

I would like to bring this back into the eyes of this topic.

Cloak is balance by local

Local is balanced by cloak.

To change one, you must change the other.

If you wish to remove "afk cloaking" as you all call it, then start thinking of true Intel tools to replace local.... Otherwise, it unlikely you will ever see a change in cloaking.