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Column on overview to demystify % chance hit or dmg

Author
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#21 - 2015-06-30 07:33:35 UTC
Samillian wrote:
Personally I think I would rather people learned what there ships were and were not capable of rather than expecting the client to spoon feed them the data. Its more satisfying in the long run and produces better pilots.


This, I think it is better for eve if it doesn't become like WoW addons where they spoonfeed you when to press what and how.

It's more fun to me and gives a way for good players to emerge, remove all that and you are left with character age and random odds, that is no fun.

Of course traps and blobbing will still win but besides that...

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#22 - 2015-06-30 07:34:18 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?


Shield or armour tanked, extenders or active tanked, gang links, implants. That's all VERY useful/important info. This is not a difficult answer and, frankly, asking the question means one lacks the understanding. It also helps clown fleets do "sort by best damage application" especially so when painters are used, and this sort of F1 cattle fleet usefulness is exactly what we don't need.

So you are telling me that I can't make a halo set shield tank with extenders and links that looks like an armor or active shield setup? Or other such things to play with people who rely on this "confirmation" that can be any of several things, and thus used as bait or a deceptive setup to get fights.
Insufficient ingenuity to deal with a single additional piece of intel, which is basic to so much, allows you to hand hack this thread's OP with enough practice, etc.

I still prefer giving people the intel to calculate it on the fly, and then give a medium wide basket that is displayed (hit chance 0-10%, 11-25% etc. as a color indicator or overview column (or both depending on settings) to giving an exact number for this value.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Kiriana Beoulve
Brotherhood of Shadow Omega
#23 - 2015-06-30 07:48:14 UTC
I support this 100%.

It's a relatively easy coding fix (no server-side requirements), and can be approximate anyways. Plus, it can help newbies learn what they're doing and what reason they're not hitting a target. It'll also prompt them to ask why the chance to hit is so low, and maybe learn a bit more.

Honestly, I'd even rather see it be split into further subcategories of range, transversal, and sig radius chances to hit. It would just streamline a lot of things and encourage more people to learn about PvP.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#24 - 2015-06-30 08:02:11 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?


Shield or armour tanked, extenders or active tanked, gang links, implants. That's all VERY useful/important info. This is not a difficult answer and, frankly, asking the question means one lacks the understanding. It also helps clown fleets do "sort by best damage application" especially so when painters are used, and this sort of F1 cattle fleet usefulness is exactly what we don't need.

So you are telling me that I can't make a halo set shield tank with extenders and links that looks like an armor or active shield setup? Or other such things to play with people who rely on this "confirmation" that can be any of several things, and thus used as bait or a deceptive setup to get fights.
Insufficient ingenuity to deal with a single additional piece of intel, which is basic to so much, allows you to hand hack this thread's OP with enough practice, etc.

I still prefer giving people the intel to calculate it on the fly, and then give a medium wide basket that is displayed (hit chance 0-10%, 11-25% etc. as a color indicator or overview column (or both depending on settings) to giving an exact number for this value.


Sure you could probably do that but that's besides the point and you stating as such doesn't change anything in this regard. Also your colour coded "hit or miss"... This is EVE, not a Sony "my first MMO". Fisher Price UI and mechanics like that have no place in EVE.
Arla Sarain
#25 - 2015-06-30 08:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?


Shield or armour tanked, extenders or active tanked, gang links, implants. That's all VERY useful/important info.

You are getting chance to hit, not sig radius.

Are you going to inverse calculate the sig radius from that, for every possible XYZ position of a ship and its speed relative to you, which isn't even the same relative speed to your fleet mates?

You likely won't, and nobody else will. Because it's absurd, even with a data sheet at your face.

A Merlin is at 10km orbiting at 0.08 rad/s, you have a 95% chance to hit him if your optimal goes to 10km.
How is the Merlin fit? Does it have shield extenders and rigs?

A Slasher is orbiting at 1.4km with 0.6 rad/s. Your chance to hit is 30%. How is the slasher fit? Does it have links?

You won't derive that on the go.

What are you guys, cyborgs?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#26 - 2015-06-30 08:49:56 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?


Shield or armour tanked, extenders or active tanked, gang links, implants. That's all VERY useful/important info. This is not a difficult answer and, frankly, asking the question means one lacks the understanding. It also helps clown fleets do "sort by best damage application" especially so when painters are used, and this sort of F1 cattle fleet usefulness is exactly what we don't need.

You are getting chance to hit, not sig radius.

Are you going to inverse calculate the sig radius from that, for every possible XYZ position of a ship and its speed relative to you, which isn't even the same relative speed to your fleet mates?

You likely won't, and nobody else will. Because it's absurd, even with a data sheet at your face.


Scrubs will be scrubs.
Arla Sarain
#27 - 2015-06-30 08:53:47 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?


Shield or armour tanked, extenders or active tanked, gang links, implants. That's all VERY useful/important info. This is not a difficult answer and, frankly, asking the question means one lacks the understanding. It also helps clown fleets do "sort by best damage application" especially so when painters are used, and this sort of F1 cattle fleet usefulness is exactly what we don't need.

You are getting chance to hit, not sig radius.

Are you going to inverse calculate the sig radius from that, for every possible XYZ position of a ship and its speed relative to you, which isn't even the same relative speed to your fleet mates?

You likely won't, and nobody else will. Because it's absurd, even with a data sheet at your face.


Scrubs will be scrubs.

Very MLG
Much bitter

Does the armchair get warmer the louder you shout out primaries when they don't go down?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#28 - 2015-06-30 08:58:54 UTC
why should the pilot need to do anything anyway
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#29 - 2015-06-30 09:04:21 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Very MLG
Much bitter

Does the armchair get warmer the louder you shout out primaries when they don't go down?


I don't do any sort of fleets like that, but nice try at changing the subject. Fact remains that it's very easy to get some basic threshold numbers for different, widely used, ships where you can guesstimate its fit (related to sig radius) and/or links & implants. Being able to sort by sig radius would have hilarious impact on blob warfare, specifically the dumb F1 cattle type.

So no. There is no reason to add this sort of info mostly because angular is already an option from which you can derive what you need, this not being WOW and because it gives out too much intel beyond what you can "see" (angular).
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-06-30 09:39:05 UTC
I find that many of the counter-arguments here are based on either:

1. Eve is meant to be hard and if you can't figure it out you don't deserve to play.

or

2. Geared toward a very small community of PVPers of exceptional skill.

I don't believe that the first is a valid argument at all. Eve as a community needs to bring in fresh blood by reducing barriers to entry in the game, or it will cease to exist. This can be accomplished without reducing the complexity of the game in large measure by improving the interface and new player experience. This suggestion is focused on the former, and the excellent tutorial suggestion earlier on the latter.

As for the super skilled folks worried about us figuring out your secret squirrel fit, you're probably making a valid point (I couldn't tell you). However the gains in bringing in new players will mean more people for you to shoot at in the long run. I think if you stated your point without elaboration to 50 players in the game, 2 might understand and 1 might have enough skill to utilize the information you're talking about.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-06-30 09:58:13 UTC
Aside from "chance to hit" there's also hit quality, and even that isn't entirely representative of actual damage you deal. So I don't think a single number is what will help with anything really.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#32 - 2015-06-30 09:59:38 UTC
Throwaway Sam Atild wrote:
I find that many of the counter-arguments here are based on either:

1. Eve is meant to be hard and if you can't figure it out you don't deserve to play.

or

2. Geared toward a very small community of PVPers of exceptional skill.

I don't believe that the first is a valid argument at all. Eve as a community needs to bring in fresh blood by reducing barriers to entry in the game, or it will cease to exist. This can be accomplished without reducing the complexity of the game in large measure by improving the interface and new player experience. This suggestion is focused on the former, and the excellent tutorial suggestion earlier on the latter.

As for the super skilled folks worried about us figuring out your secret squirrel fit, you're probably making a valid point (I couldn't tell you). However the gains in bringing in new players will mean more people for you to shoot at in the long run. I think if you stated your point without elaboration to 50 players in the game, 2 might understand and 1 might have enough skill to utilize the information you're talking about.



Exactly.

The challenge in Eve should come primarily from other players; secondarily from a challenging, immense, and varied environment; and NEVER from the User Interface or terrible game design.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#33 - 2015-06-30 10:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
EVE has been doing well for over a decade without pampering new players with Fisher Price game mechanics and nonsense, in fact the last few years CCP HAS been making things a lot easier and safer/better PVE and more idiot proof (see scanning for instance) and it hasn't resulted in more subs or better pvp, just more zombies in both pve and pvp.

To put it a bit more simple (it seems to be needed given how you keep asking for oversimplified stuff): IT'S NOT DIFFICULT AND REQUIRES NO MAGICAL MYSTICAL FORGOTTEN KNOWLEDGE, JUST SOME INSIGHT AND EXPERIENCE WHICH IS AS IT SHOULD BE. IF YOU WANT COOL & COLOURFULL "HANDED ON A PLATE" GAMEPLAY AND UI YOU YOU'RE PLAYING THE WRONG GAME. THIS IN AND OF ITSELF WOULDN'T BE SO BAD IF THE IMPLICATIONS OF THESE IDEAS WOULDN'T RESULT IN HORRIBLE BOONS FOR MORON FLEETS, SOMETHING CCP HAS STARTED TO ACTIVELY FIGHT AGAINST, BUT IT DOES. SO NOPE!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#34 - 2015-06-30 10:13:37 UTC
Aaaah!! I know what you want. I figured it out - yeay. You want to see more pvp videos - in client.

Now see, the client is not designed to play videos but there is a website where you will find tons of pvp videos to look at, so I suggest you use a search engine and search for youtube - on this site you can just search for EVE and you will have like a bajillion pvp and pve videos to look at, very noobie friendly of course.

As for the client, YOU need to fly your ship, not the client and for all turrets of all sizes and flavors the following is always true:

Close range - hitting bad

Long(er) range - hitting good

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2015-06-30 10:31:08 UTC
nope, knowing your weapons and ship is one of the most important skillsets in this game.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#36 - 2015-06-30 10:50:53 UTC
You won't get something like this through the noise because there is a very vocal faction that believes that ccp should send ninjas to your house to install poison needles under your keyboard to make it more challenging to enter commands to the client.

As far as the UI, I could see doing something like an indicator of 10 dots (5 per side, or a ring) around each ship in view, each dot representing 10% chance to hit, rounded down. The info provided would be in a broad range, yet tight enough to be able to see how your chance to hit can vary in different circumstances.

You are supposed to be flying a semi-sentient starship. It should be able to handle some basic math. Also, if there is one piece of information your sensors would know about a target, it would be the sensor noise coming from that target---AKA Sig Radius.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#37 - 2015-06-30 13:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Kiriana Beoulve wrote:
I support this 100%.

It's a relatively easy coding fix (no server-side requirements), and can be approximate anyways. Plus, it can help newbies learn what they're doing and what reason they're not hitting a target. It'll also prompt them to ask why the chance to hit is so low, and maybe learn a bit more.

Honestly, I'd even rather see it be split into further subcategories of range, transversal, and sig radius chances to hit. It would just streamline a lot of things and encourage more people to learn about PvP.


Sorry but this won't do anything that the log messages and the damage bar on the target don't do already, it would say your chance to hit is x% which is info easily gleaned from the damage being displayed in the target icon... it won't tell you why.

The why comes from learning the limitations of your fit, from finding the correct optimal, the right speed to orbit, whether to keep at range... all these things have to be figured intuitively, you try them and see if you apply more damage, or if you get your wish... your chance to hit increases.

In effect there's very little difference between the damage bar and a chance to hit reading, neither of them instruct you what to dobut both tell you if what you are doing is working/will work. It's completely redundant since, assuming a pilot is not stupid enough to wait for the chance to hit meter to green light firing of weapons (*ie. the pilot is already firing) the results are there to see in the damage bar on the target already.

A COMPLETELY REDUNDANT IDEA (that will most likely harm newer pilots as they fixate on it at the expense of other considerations)
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