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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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Kendarr
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#521 - 2015-06-22 09:59:26 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Titan bridging without pos shields? You are vulnerable when the bridge is up and unable to move. So you are in a situation where you cannot move and have no protection and since you just sent all your friends through a bridge no immediate backup. This issue needs resolving.


I am in agreement with this guy.

Zebra-Corp
Kendarr
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#522 - 2015-06-22 11:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kendarr
MukkBarovian wrote:
How about just not removing poses from the game. Take away their mining, production, refining, everything, but leave them as staging points.


I like this ideal but at the same time we really should get rid of POS full stop.

Give the station a bubble? lol

Zebra-Corp
islador
Antigen.
#523 - 2015-06-23 21:03:07 UTC
Could the new docking structures have multiple undock points? With pilots able to select which undock to use?

Because of the new size of the structures, these undocks would


  • Raise the player count required to hell camp a station.
  • Make 'station games' more dynamic and engaging.
  • Allow for stations be both 'kick out' and 'safe undock' stations thus providing variable risk levels for the undocking operation.


The increased player count required to hell camp a station would likely help alleviate the concerns about hell camping being the best tactic in fozziesov. In short, it allows those 'trapped' in station a new form of counter-play.
Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#524 - 2015-06-24 20:31:33 UTC
Kendarr wrote:
MukkBarovian wrote:
How about just not removing poses from the game. Take away their mining, production, refining, everything, but leave them as staging points.


I like this ideal but at the same time we really should get rid of POS full stop.

Give the station a bubble? lol


What if we could create our own complexes? Gives you some time, but attackers have a chance.

Master of being misunderstood.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#525 - 2015-06-28 06:32:53 UTC
Why is it the responsibility of the station to ensure that your capital ship is protected? The station is worth far more than any Titan. The titan should have to pay for shielding services which would come in various levels of protection based on how well the titan pilot wanted to be protected while moored. Just like insurance the more that the pilot pays the more protection is afforded.

I think that station shielding services should also be paid for with AUR seeing as how it would be a premium service that the station would have to adjust its financial data logs for.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#526 - 2015-06-29 03:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: d0cTeR9
DrysonBennington wrote:
Why is it the responsibility of the station to ensure that your capital ship is protected? The station is worth far more than any Titan. The titan should have to pay for shielding services which would come in various levels of protection based on how well the titan pilot wanted to be protected while moored. Just like insurance the more that the pilot pays the more protection is afforded.

I think that station shielding services should also be paid for with AUR seeing as how it would be a premium service that the station would have to adjust its financial data logs for.


That's pretty stupid... Proper alliances take care of their expensive titans/titan pilots. They do NOT treat them badly and they also don't see them as cow-cash.

You would know that if you left NPC stations and go to null-sec to a proper alliance :)

Been around since the beginning.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#527 - 2015-06-29 03:51:08 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
Why is it the responsibility of the station to ensure that your capital ship is protected? The station is worth far more than any Titan. The titan should have to pay for shielding services which would come in various levels of protection based on how well the titan pilot wanted to be protected while moored. Just like insurance the more that the pilot pays the more protection is afforded.

I think that station shielding services should also be paid for with AUR seeing as how it would be a premium service that the station would have to adjust its financial data logs for.


That's pretty stupid... Proper alliances take care of their expensive titans/titan pilots. They do NOT treat them badly and they also don't see them as cow-cash.

You would know that if you left NPC stations and go to null-sec to a proper alliance :)


It's usually best to just ignore DrysonBennington.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#528 - 2015-06-29 19:02:01 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
d0cTeR9 wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
Why is it the responsibility of the station to ensure that your capital ship is protected? The station is worth far more than any Titan. The titan should have to pay for shielding services which would come in various levels of protection based on how well the titan pilot wanted to be protected while moored. Just like insurance the more that the pilot pays the more protection is afforded.

I think that station shielding services should also be paid for with AUR seeing as how it would be a premium service that the station would have to adjust its financial data logs for.


That's pretty stupid... Proper alliances take care of their expensive titans/titan pilots. They do NOT treat them badly and they also don't see them as cow-cash.

You would know that if you left NPC stations and go to null-sec to a proper alliance :)


It's usually best to just ignore DrysonBennington.


Thanks! I took a look at his previous posts and wow you are right!

Been around since the beginning.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#529 - 2015-06-29 22:56:55 UTC
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:
I think Mooring can be attractive if it improves other quality of life issues.

POS shields are nice because they provide a safe place for supers to stage and do their work.

Mooring could show just the hulls moored (no pilot name, just ship name), or just the active ships, maybe not even an accurate number as RL harbors have ways of covering and obscuring accurate numbers.

I'd really like if a moored super cap could be ejected from and the pilot feel safe in leaving that ship.

A moored super should be able to access corp hangars/fitting services and those sorts of things from the structure they're tied to.

A moored ship must be able to rep themselves.

Bridging: This must remain a possibility. '


I have distilled your points to make a response easier:

1) Ok fine don't show the pilot but an accurate number should be shown.

2) a Moored super shouldn't be able to perform any action except un-moore or maybe d-scan...not not even refitting. Too bad suck it up.

3) No repping possible...you're invulnerable why should you be able to rep under complete cover? That's dumb. Go away.

4) Bridging is still a possibility but should not be while moored...too powerful. Be more circumspect in how you deploy your fleets.
Lancastor Dex
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2015-06-30 07:54:51 UTC
There is an easy solution to promote mooring.
Currently after you log off your ship magicaly dissapears after certain amount of time.
Just remove this "feature" from supercaps and everyone will be mooring :)
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#531 - 2015-07-01 16:21:22 UTC
Lancastor Dex wrote:
There is an easy solution to promote mooring.
Currently after you log off your ship magicaly dissapears after certain amount of time.
Just remove this "feature" from supercaps and everyone will be mooring :)


Agreed, also stop people from docking if they have a capsuleer log-off timer. No more docking after 60 seconds, you now have to wait 5-15 minutes.

(Yes that was sarcasm).

Been around since the beginning.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#532 - 2015-07-03 05:20:47 UTC
Kendarr wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Titan bridging without pos shields? You are vulnerable when the bridge is up and unable to move. So you are in a situation where you cannot move and have no protection and since you just sent all your friends through a bridge no immediate backup. This issue needs resolving.


I am in agreement with this guy.

Allow supers the option to anchor and extend their shields outwards into a bubble like starbases have now. Have another super like a Wyvern keep the titan safe in its shields until the titan can move again. Jump both ships out.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#533 - 2015-07-03 18:32:50 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We are aware mooring presents a lot of discussion points, some of which were expressed during the Fanfest structure round table:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.


We are considering various ways of solving the points listed above, like giving some "buffer time" when pilots moor and remove moorings to give them time to react by either jumping / warping away or aligning to another structure with available mooring capability.



1) The intelligence boost on seeing capitals moored is a good thing as it drives player conflict (and thus content). I see no problem with this at all. Don't undock a capital solo...I feel like this should be common sense if you're in a corp/alliance that owns such a structure and can protect it.

2) Super Capitals being 'ambushed' on decoupling is, again, not a bad thing. Keep in mind that the station (if properly configured) can defend and even support the capital if it is indeed set upon. Again, if you can afford such a structure you ought to have enough common sense to be prepared for attack. Also, making an undock (or a docking maneuver) invulnerable kills the potential for espionage - a very important and much loved part of New Eden.

3) Rats up your butt and you can't moor because Joe the Joker forgot to move his worthless Phoenix? Hmm, well that's unfortunate. Should have called ahead and RESERVED YOUR SPACE. Again, not a problem. Know your structure capacity and its level. A true solution to this would be to allow players of that corp/alliance to see what is docked at the station so they can plan ahead.

You didn't plan ahead? Oh, well...umm...I guess you'll go through what any other ship and pilot goes through when they don't plan and get ambushed. You know...die.

What happened to that ancient premise that capital ships are not solo ships? Even in High Security space (if allowed, which it sounds like will happen eventually again) a capital should be at a large degree of risk alone. They costs billions, take a long time to build, are the most visually stunning ships, and have enormous utility when applied correctly.

i.e. They should be protected fiercely because it should hurt something fierce when you lose one.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#534 - 2015-07-03 18:47:34 UTC
On a related topic, titan bridging has been brought up...

You know I've always wondered what the point of a titan bridge is if the titan can't go too?

"OK GUYS! Away you go! I'll just hang back here, by myself, with my super awesome utility. Alone. Go team! I'll cheer you on from home. Where nobody is. Where we aren't attacking. I'll just do laundry with my Oblivion."

For those concerned about bridging without a POS shield for protection (an adequate concern), here are my suggestions to the devs...

1) Suck it up Princess approach...
-Change nothing with the bridge and don't send the whole damn fleet through you morons.
-Results in smaller fleets and will give rise to "All In Tactics" (Abandon one titan to field a larger fleet)
-Doesn't solve the "I'm a really expensive method of transportation that requires a pod" problem.

2) Team Titans! approach
-Titan bridges create wormholes with limited ship usability, Titan isn't impacted during creation. WH can fit at most two titans mass-wise.
-Requires multiple titans to field larger fleets
-Titans can use the wormhole to follow...nobody left behind
-Bonus: Neutral Spatial Anomaly can't tell friends and foes...enemy can also use your WHs created if there is still mass left in them

3) Easy-Mode approach
-Titan bridge has no limit on ships jumped
-Titan is incapacitated for thirty seconds, then able to use its own portal
-Titan using its portal results in portal shutdown (So he has to jump last)


Notice that none of these suggestions have to do with Mooring at structures. If you're moored, you can interact with the station AND THAT IS IT. Station Repair services, Cargo Movement, and Fitting should be the only three functions available to a moored ship.

I personally think bridging in POS shield is lame and content depriving. But, the current mechanics effectively require one of two options: leave the titan behind or leave a small fleet behind to protect it. Neither are good options (the second makes sense but doesn't provide gameplay). The mechanic itself defeats the purpose of player interaction.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#535 - 2015-07-04 06:41:31 UTC
SandKid wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

We are aware mooring presents a lot of discussion points, some of which were expressed during the Fanfest structure round table:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.


We are considering various ways of solving the points listed above, like giving some "buffer time" when pilots moor and remove moorings to give them time to react by either jumping / warping away or aligning to another structure with available mooring capability.



1) The intelligence boost on seeing capitals moored is a good thing as it drives player conflict (and thus content). I see no problem with this at all. Don't undock a capital solo...I feel like this should be common sense if you're in a corp/alliance that owns such a structure and can protect it.

2) Super Capitals being 'ambushed' on decoupling is, again, not a bad thing. Keep in mind that the station (if properly configured) can defend and even support the capital if it is indeed set upon. Again, if you can afford such a structure you ought to have enough common sense to be prepared for attack. Also, making an undock (or a docking maneuver) invulnerable kills the potential for espionage - a very important and much loved part of New Eden.

3) Rats up your butt and you can't moor because Joe the Joker forgot to move his worthless Phoenix? Hmm, well that's unfortunate. Should have called ahead and RESERVED YOUR SPACE. Again, not a problem. Know your structure capacity and its level. A true solution to this would be to allow players of that corp/alliance to see what is docked at the station so they can plan ahead.

You didn't plan ahead? Oh, well...umm...I guess you'll go through what any other ship and pilot goes through when they don't plan and get ambushed. You know...die.

What happened to that ancient premise that capital ships are not solo ships? Even in High Security space (if allowed, which it sounds like will happen eventually again) a capital should be at a large degree of risk alone. They costs billions, take a long time to build, are the most visually stunning ships, and have enormous utility when applied correctly.

i.e. They should be protected fiercely because it should hurt something fierce when you lose one.


1) Apply your intelligence boost (Ability to see docked ships in a station) / content driving notion to sub caps docked on any new station. Now consider that a well prepared, well supplied force will never be beaten if they hell camp a station. Still a good idea? I think its going to have the exact opposite effect to "driving conflict and providing content".

2) Again, sub caps being hell camped with no way for you to surprise the campers regardless of what you undock in. See point 1.

3) Lets limit the amount of sub cap pilots that can dock on the new structures and see the riots that ensue.

All in all, your content driving / conflict generating ideas seem to keep your overwhelmingly sub capital play style safe and throw larger boys to the wolves so you can have more lols.

Amirite?

And this is eve online, the notion of "group only" ships should get das boot. Players should be able to play with any ships solo (anywhere), but should know the limitations of solo play (cue risk), as this game is supposed to be a sandbox, not a kinder garden where i am forced to hold hands if I don't want to.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Isoroku Yasukawa
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#536 - 2015-07-05 10:06:40 UTC
Isoroku Yasukawa wrote:
@Ytterbium: How do you envisage supercap movement taking place with the new structures?

Right now it is simply beyond a nightmare if you are outside a large power block. Garage door cyno removal - understood the reasons, but where is the quid pro quo?

So, any update?

It is genuinely nigh on impossible now [read: suicidal], to move supers if not part of one of the larger blocks; hope there's going to be something to level the balance of risk (curious as to how these 'structure' DD's are going to work...)
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#537 - 2015-07-05 13:49:04 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:




  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.




Make supers cloaked when they "Moor" = no free intel.



This is effectively just docking supers, protection with no intel is the same as docking, but maybe it's time to allow that?


OH YES! YES PLEASE! And one more thing, can you make mooring to NPC stations a thing? I REALLY wanna own my own Nyx one day (long term personal goal) but currently i can't do that without joining a major corp to protect my super with player owned stations. If you let me dock (moor + cloaked) a super in an NPC station, i could then dock and still use my character to fly other ships in the game and not be stuck in that ship forever.

Just make it effectively work exactly how it works for all other ships in eve. You dock (moor + cloaked for lore reasons) in any station any other normal ship could dock in. Same rules as any other ship for whatever your docked in. And when you undock it works the same way as every other ship in the game, same invulnerability for a set period of time until you do something but without pre-aligning you out of the station.
Haleon Horras
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#538 - 2015-07-09 23:46:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
As long as highsec is nice and safe.

Ref Burn Jita
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#539 - 2015-07-10 00:02:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to be around the mooring and docking features tied with those new structures.


  • Mooring is intended for the largest ships (supercapitals and maybe capitals) to be safely stored around those new structures. As long as they are within a specific radius of the structure, they would be invulnerable and could not be bumped. They would otherwise not be able to interact with their surroundings or other ships on the field as long as they would be protected. This is meant as a replacement for Starbase forcefield which currently has a certain number of issues.

  • Docking is intended for smaller ships to be able to get inside the structure and be safe from direct assault (just like in NPC stations)


We are aware mooring presents a lot of discussion points, some of which were expressed during the Fanfest structure round table:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.
  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.
  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.


We are considering various ways of solving the points listed above, like giving some "buffer time" when pilots moor and remove moorings to give them time to react by either jumping / warping away or aligning to another structure with available mooring capability.


One one side, you have the super hunter's, which would love to see supers on D-scan (smart pos owners have the mega hanger array for storing them and don't leave them out). if you take away the option of using the XL hanger array, your giving them a 1 up.

Having them visually there is just about the same as that hanger array. It's big. you can't miss it if your looking at a POS.

I think all ships should have a "soft mooring" as they get "Taxi'd" to the structure in place of having a pos shield (size to size radius would work just liek the current shields).
Nortion Adoulin
Not Listed
#540 - 2015-07-16 14:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nortion Adoulin
How about this

If you more a capital you get a chose .

A: when you log out your ship vanishes as it dose when you log out in space. but your Jump fatuge recovery rate is halved.

B: When you log out it remains in space attached to the station BUT your JUMP FATUGE is reduced at a faster rate. So docking up and staying has advantages but is a bit more risky.