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Mix up the moon minerals
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2011-12-30 01:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Whoever controls the most space gets the largest randomly distributed portion of moon mins: a surefire recipe for small alliances to get a foothold in 0.0.


signed

- hisec industrial guy
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-12-30 02:06:56 UTC
Ilany wrote:
No it woudn't.
a) They are already in the hands of large alliances and have been for years.
b) This proposal would change that situation. Large alliances might be able to persuade their members to go hunting for new deposits, but I would be surprised if anyone had the patience to go scanning every moon in the whole cluster once every other week. This proposal would favour smaller alliances who have a tight grasp of a small area, or enterprising corporations working in low sec.

A large alliance can devote more people to moonscanning than a small alliance, can better cover for people burning out, and can more efficiently co-ordinate their efforts. I've previously worked in GSRecon, I've seen us scan entire regions (often hostile regions) in a matter of a few days. If a valuable moon appears anywhere near our space, we'll find it. It'll be boring and repetitive work which makes people want to not play Eve any more, but that effect will hit small alliances with less redundancy more seriously than it will the mega-blocs.

Some little group of 50 guys won't have those same resources or the same breadth of interests (moonscanning is not particularly fun or exciting without a bunch of other people to organise it with), and will sit with a tech moon next door oblivious to its presence until a large alliance with dozens of people scanning everything in reach shows up and towers it from under their noses. Or, even better, we'll just let those little alliances do the hard work of moonscanning everything, and every couple of days fly a few covopses around hitting d-scan for moon mining pos modules and dropping 250 guys on any tower that is mining. Thanks for finding our next tech deposit for us, sorry we blew up your tower!

Plus, if a small alliance holds only a small area, there's obviously a lesser chance of tech (or whatever) spawning in their space than in that of a large alliance which holds a lot of space.

Quote:
Lord Zim wrote:
One of the things that's needed to drive conflict is static resources that don't move


Nonsense. This proposal does not diminish the value of a region, it just means you have to control it better and work for your isk like everyone else.

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to... well, anything in Eve, but the only valuable regions in 0.0 right now are those with tech in them. The result of shifting materials would be a constant disruption to the supply, spiking the market prices of the ships produced with them (good for moon owners, not so much for the consumers at the end of the chain). So we'll sit on a few regions, and the increased cost means we can make the same isk by mining fewer moons. Great for our logistics teams, not so good for anyone else.

Quote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Well, scatim pointed out the dumbest part of that plan: why the **** should I bother moving around when I can just wait a few weeks and see if I don't get the tech back?


Probably best if you don't constuct arguments based on comments from another goon. Look at the numbers: The chance of an R64 mineral coming back to the same moon within a reasonable time frame would be very slim.

Do you have a coherent argument or are you just going with 'that guy is in your alliance therefore you lose'.

The chance of the same material appearing on the same moon is obviously small, but the more space you own, the more chance of the r64 (r64s aren't particularly valuable fyi, tech is where the money is) spawning somewhere else in space that you own. Congratulations, you just incentivised AFK alliances holding as much empty un-used space as possible.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Ilany
Nightingale Enterprises
#23 - 2011-12-30 12:20:32 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
A large alliance can devote more people to moonscanning than a small alliance, can better cover for people burning out, and can more efficiently co-ordinate their efforts. I've previously worked in GSRecon, I've seen us scan entire regions (often hostile regions) in a matter of a few days. If a valuable moon appears anywhere near our space, we'll find it. It'll be boring and repetitive work which makes people want to not play Eve any more, but that effect will hit small alliances with less redundancy more seriously than it will the mega-blocs.


As I said in the first post, the moon mining system would need to be changed: perhaps a new sov structure which allows the owner to scan the system (for a resource cost). 'Visitors' would have to use the existing aim-the-probe at the moon system.
And yes, large alliances might have the human resources to scan large areas of space, but I think your resolve to do that repeatedly would falter over time if the deposits continually moved around.

Scatim Helicon wrote:
Plus, if a small alliance holds only a small area, there's obviously a lesser chance of tech (or whatever) spawning in their space than in that of a large alliance which holds a lot of space.


True, but that space would have to be maintained at-cost (either by players manually scanning the moons or by running the expensive-to-fuel scanning structure I suggested above). Either way, the chance of a rare mineral spawning in a different place is much higher than it is now...

Quote:
The chance of the same material appearing on the same moon is obviously small, but the more space you own, the more chance of the r64 (r64s aren't particularly valuable fyi, tech is where the money is) spawning somewhere else in space that you own. Congratulations, you just incentivised AFK alliances holding as much empty un-used space as possible.


I appreciate that Goons are relatively new to EVE, and I appreciate that technetium might be where the money is at the moment, but times change. Two years ago tech was virtually worthless and the money was in dyspro (and to a lesser extent prom). Before that I recall neo being more valuable, and 4-5 years ago they were all roughly equal (or at least cheap enough that the difference didn't matter so much).

The problem with tech is that it is concentrated (by chance) in particular 0.0 regions. I'm pretty sure CCP will do something about that, in the same way they 'fixed' dyspro and neo in the past... this is one way to achieve a balance and ensure it doesn't need fixing again – there are lots of levers for managing the mechanics, which is far easier than making single massive changes to the T2 system every 2 or 3 years.

I don't see how AFK alliances would benefit from this proposal – the idea is that it requires work to earn isk. The strength to defend the space should be another requirement – so this could easily be combined with other proposals to place mining arrays outside shields and encourage small gang warfare etc.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-12-30 12:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Ilany wrote:
I appreciate that Goons are relatively new to EVE

ahahahahahahahahahaha

you're funny.
Ilany wrote:
The problem with tech is that it is concentrated (by chance) in particular 0.0 regions. I'm pretty sure CCP will do something about that, in the same way they 'fixed' dyspro and neo in the past... this is one way to achieve a balance and ensure it doesn't need fixing again – there are lots of levers for managing the mechanics, which is far easier than making single massive changes to the T2 system every 2 or 3 years.

So, because you can't see any single way of displacing the CFC (much like the NC "couldn't be displaced" and "is killing the game"), and as such get access to the tech, you want to make the act of actually extracting the t2 materials a literal cockstab based on chance.

You sound like a good game designer, I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#25 - 2011-12-30 13:50:59 UTC
Ilany wrote:

I appreciate that Goons are relatively new to EVE


Literally clueless.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#26 - 2011-12-30 13:51:19 UTC
Such ignorance also explains why you think this idea is good.

Hint: its not.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2011-12-30 18:58:57 UTC
Ilany wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
End result of this: Billion isk vagabonds.

No.


Dunno how you came to that conclusion. The pupose of this proposal is to cause prices to drop by breaking monopolies.




Monopolies have moons in constant production, ensuring a constant supply of moongoo, even if they ahve the prices controlled. Moving the moons every two-three weeks gives broken supply, with moongoo getting to the market in dribs and drabs, tiny amounts at random times. Supply will fall, while demand doesn't, so prices will spike.

You might hate monopolies, but isn't it better to have techmoons in the hands of people who A) know where they are, B) have the capability to mine them, and C) have the logistics in place to actually get the moongoo to market?

Do you really want some random chucklefuck in lowsec to have their research pos sat on a tech moon without knowing it? There aren't that many tech mons in the game, and every one you take out of circulation like this, or every one no-one can find, is less supply for the market.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-12-30 20:06:58 UTC
Ilany wrote:
As I said in the first post, the moon mining system would need to be changed: perhaps a new sov structure which allows the owner to scan the system (for a resource cost). 'Visitors' would have to use the existing aim-the-probe at the moon system.
And yes, large alliances might have the human resources to scan large areas of space, but I think your resolve to do that repeatedly would falter over time if the deposits continually moved around.


It would falter much more quickly in a small corp or alliance where the moon team consisted of one or maybe two players. In fact, for the most part they'd likely not bother at all, since they could probably make more ISK and certainly have more fun spending a few hours just tagging along with a highsec incursion rather than constant moonscanning and POS logistics to get a few weeks of promethium.

And you want to use Sov structures to automate the process? Just more incentive for us sov-ing everything within reach and waiting for the roulette wheel to drop tech moons into our lap. Meanwhile lowsec and NPC 0.0 get lumbered with the suicide-inducing tedium of endless manual moonprobing and in all probability don't bother (or more accurately, can't keep their logistics guys subscribed to eve), leaving large sovholding entities to rake in all the profits.

Quote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Plus, if a small alliance holds only a small area, there's obviously a lesser chance of tech (or whatever) spawning in their space than in that of a large alliance which holds a lot of space.


True, but that space would have to be maintained at-cost (either by players manually scanning the moons or by running the expensive-to-fuel scanning structure I suggested above). Either way, the chance of a rare mineral spawning in a different place is much higher than it is now...

Hi, we're Goonswarm Federation, and we pay 60 billion ISK a month in sov bills and POS fuel costs. A few billion more for automated moonscans is going to be nothing, especially when we can pass the extra costs on to the consumers, and when non-sov space has given up on moons altogether because manual moonscanning on a monthly basis is marginally less fun than stabbing yourself in the eye with a ballpoint pen, and so the demand has spiked.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-12-30 20:07:33 UTC
Quote:
Quote:
The chance of the same material appearing on the same moon is obviously small, but the more space you own, the more chance of the r64 (r64s aren't particularly valuable fyi, tech is where the money is) spawning somewhere else in space that you own. Congratulations, you just incentivised AFK alliances holding as much empty un-used space as possible.


I appreciate that Goons are relatively new to EVE, and I appreciate that technetium might be where the money is at the moment, but times change. Two years ago tech was virtually worthless and the money was in dyspro (and to a lesser extent prom). Before that I recall neo being more valuable, and 4-5 years ago they were all roughly equal (or at least cheap enough that the difference didn't matter so much).
Ummm, you realise that two years ago we lived in Delve and Querious and we were rolling around in the huge piles of dysprosium and promethium that those regions generated? 5 years ago it was all equally worthless because the demand for T2 items was relatively low due to both lower average skill levels and the inflated prices from the T2 BPO monopoly.

Quote:
The problem with tech is that it is concentrated (by chance) in particular 0.0 regions. I'm pretty sure CCP will do something about that, in the same way they 'fixed' dyspro and neo in the past... this is one way to achieve a balance and ensure it doesn't need fixing again – there are lots of levers for managing the mechanics, which is far easier than making single massive changes to the T2 system every 2 or 3 years.

No, the problem with tech is that the demand (and so, because supply is fixed, the cost) for it is wildly disproportionate due to the T2 items that use it in the manufacturing process. That's the most obvious place to start if you want to fix the tech spike - alter the material requirements so that other moon minerals become more valuable and tech less so. That, or introduce alchemy for r32s to increase the supply (though this would likely keep tech unbalanced relative to other r32s, it would at least bring it more in line with the r64s).

Randomly switching the moons around the galaxy looks like a great idea at first glance but ultimately it breaks more things than it fixes.

Quote:
I don't see how AFK alliances would benefit from this proposal – the idea is that it requires work to earn isk. The strength to defend the space should be another requirement – so this could easily be combined with other proposals to place mining arrays outside shields and encourage small gang warfare etc.

The problem is that you're diverting 'work' from interesting, emergent activities in Eve (fights, invasions, subterfuge, politics, diplomacy, etc) into boring, repetitive activities (scanning every moon in your region once a month). Its all very well requiring people to work for their isk but the 'work' has to be something more than an endurance test for masochists to see who lasts the longest before slitting their wrists in despair.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-12-30 20:15:16 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The problem is that you're diverting 'work' from interesting, emergent activities in Eve (fights, invasions, subterfuge, politics, diplomacy, etc) into boring, repetitive activities (scanning every moon in your region once a month). Its all very well requiring people to work for their isk but the 'work' has to be something more than an endurance test for masochists to see who lasts the longest before slitting their wrists in despair.

I postulate that he wants to see more of EVE botted up.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
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