Ships & Modules

Sabre, anyone?

What?

Has the "Buzzsaw" Thrasher fallen out of favor while I was gone? It still looks pretty good with ~350 dps, ~9k ehp, and ~1900 m/sec speed.

The Svipul is stupid strong.

Scythe Fleet Issues are basically beefier and MUCH faster Caracals.

The Stabber Fleet Issue may not be "the best" when it comes to brawling (that title goes to the Vexor Navy)... but it can hold its own as mobile support for larger ships (hint: Dual-180s + maxed tracking bonus + double webs = frigate mulcher).

And I hear good things about Typhoons fitted with Rapid Heavy Launchers.


In all seriousness...

- The Loki has always been the "weakest" of the T3Cs in terms of combat ability. However, it has a strong niche in medium-sized fleet warfare where it is essentially a super-tanky Hugginn.

- Auto-cannons are pretty weak at the moment... but they are still usable. You just have to play to their strengths (hint: falloff range) rather than bum-rush and rely on their anemic damage output.

- Unfortunately... "power creep" has happened with a lot of ships. And because Minmatar ships were already considered "quite good" they were left out of many of the buffs that other ships got. Hence, the current situation you see here.

Well ok.. at least it is something



Hmm... I really like to hear more about it. That is the first time I read something about the Typhoon. Normally all I see in terms of BSs is that Domnix or Raven are the way to go.



Well then I ask you, why not take a Hugginn, when this ship is cheaper and does nearly the same? It makes me a little sad to hear this, but I am wondering, weather CCP is aware of this? Are they thinking about rebalancing T3s any time soon?



Why is that? Why do Missles seem supirior? What about the other two weapon systems?




And what is this current situation? So am I not wrong? It seems that Minmatar ships may have some niche usefulness in pvp, but that's it?

The issue happened when they both nerfed projectiles and buffed MASSIVELy hybrids at same time. Now there is no engagement envelope where projectiles are better than blasters or rails, except arti alpha strike (very limited scope).

Within tackle range medium blasters outdo COMPLETELY medium AC, same for large Blasters vs large AC. Medium rails are leaps and bounds superior to medium arti.

On the small close range weapons AC still ahve a savign grace that ships moving tend to get in and out of optimal range a lot (because the range bands are very narrow) and the blasters suffer a bit more if the target ship is not completely tackled.

So the only weapon systems in reasonable place are large arties and on lesser degree small ac.

Medium and large AC are only competitive on hulls that have falloff bonuses, and even so BARELY. The vagabond have problems matching a thorax inside tackle range.

Because a competent pilot with a decent fit Loki is far less likely to die than a Huginn, it is far better to put more isk into a Loki than it is the Huginn. Huginns die immediately when on field, Lokis survive far longer, they have a much larger window for reps to land.

There certainly is some minnie ships that aren't in a good place at the moment and could use some love, but there's still plenty that are viable in many situations.

If by minmatar ship you mean a stiletto, a svipul, a sabre, a scimitar, huginn, rapier or a sleipnir, they're in an awesome state. But yes, most of those don't use guns. Minmatar ships with guns are generally garbage.

It seems, that my impression wasn't that wrong.

Anyways, what is the problem with the guns?

Wherever I turn and look, I see Minnie ships.

That red pod shooter on Amarr undock ? Resebo'ed Svipul.
That solo hunter in the WH ? Stealthy Loki.
That camper on the null entrance ? Cloaky Sabre.
That scam-courier finisher in the low-sec joint ? Fast-locking Tornado.
That hero-logi in the shield doctrine fleet ? Cap stable Scythe.
That pesky interceptor coming ahead to scram for his friend behind ? Stiletto.

I say space-wrecks have a great deal of use.

I should add with the caveat "in small to medium-sized gangs."

Missiles ships are still out of favor when it comes to fleet warfare due to missile delay.

The Typhoon gains particular notoriety because it has a damage application bonus (explosion radius) AND can be decently armor tanked.


Lets put it this way...
The Loki can easily get a tank of 150,000+ effective hitpoints. The Huginn can barely get to 40,000 effective hitpoints.

And CCP have been talking about rebalancing capitals, supercapitals, and Tech 3 Cruisers for some time now.
Either they are still crunching numbers in the back trying to find some semblance of balance with all the different sub-systems or they are completely redoing the entire Tech 3 Cruiser paradigm or they simply have no idea what to do with them.

That said though... even after any supposed rebalance it will be a safe bet that the Loki will still be used in the same role for the same reason (because Recon ships are, by default, supposed to be "thin").
It is not all bad though. The Huginn has some very big strengths at the small to medium gang level. It can web farther (40km rather than the Loki's 25km), fly faster (~300 m/sec faster), and is immune to Direction Scan (new ability given after Recons were balanced).


ACs were the dominant weapon system for many years. So when CCP took a look at other weapon systems they decided to buff them and not ACs (infact, they nerfed ACs a bit).
The result is that hybrids, particularly blasters, are now the final word in close range brawling.
However, ACs can be used to great effect when "scram-kiting" (look it up).
And Artillery is the same as it always has been... terrible tracking... bad dps... supreme alpha.

As for missiles... in small gangs and kiting tactics, missiles are quite popular because they don't have to deal with tracking and they have rather long ranges.


Not wrong. But not right either. Every ship now has a niche and usefulness. Minmatar ships just got the relatively shorter stick compared to some others. This does not mean they are "not viable"... merely that they aren't "kings" in most classes anymore.

The simple fact of the matter is that the lineup of ships being used in today's meta is FAR more diverse*** than in the age when Minmatar ships were known as "Winmatar."


***Yes, I said it. More diverse. Even with the many complaints about Ishtars, T3Ds, and lack of battleship viability/flexibility... the meta is still more diverse that it was 2 years ago.

FW Missioning: Take a Manticore
Wormhole: Take a Manticore
Small Scale Gangs: Take a Manticore
Combat Exploration: Take the Hawk