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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hiding from wardecs.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#141 - 2015-06-25 15:38:56 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Because the cost is justified as "paying for targets" if I get no targets I should not be paying. Alternatively CCP could drop the pretense that you are paying for targets when you declare a war (because you really aren't) and admit that the entire purpose of cost scaling was specifically to benefit e-uni. Basically I have a really old grudge against a really transparent and dishonest explanation given for a particular mechanic and feel that CCP have been really hypocritical about other mechanics that should logically be affected by the same principle. I think I might have been playing eve too long.


The "they are paying for targets so they should pay more" was a large null block argument to raise the price of a war dec on large alliances - which ccp listened to (it was in the time frame where sov mechanics got totally borked and ccp got talked into bad ideas hand over fist - like cyno jammers and making the cost of HS war decs up-side-down). I'm not aware of the uni connection to the decision, but I'd love to hear what you have to say. I will convo you sometime in game.

If someone really thinks the purpose of HS wardecs is and should be to pay for targets, then they are part of the problem and I can't help them.

The general flavor of this thread is to make wardecs meaningful. Wardecs = paying for targets will never be meaningful. The biggest contributor to war decs having no meaning(value) are the massive alt corps paying pennies to shoot turkeys on hub undocks. The ones that have 100 active decs. War decs are like everything else, the more you can easily aquire - the less value(meaning) they have.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#142 - 2015-06-25 15:39:49 UTC
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#143 - 2015-06-25 15:49:36 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants



It's a pvp sandbox game. You need to understand that every month when your subscription gets extended. In this game you fight other players for your right to play in the sandbox. Thats the inner soul of the game.

Me, Leto, your grandma or anyone else cares all that much if you buy into it or not. Logging in is consent to be a part of a pvp sandbox game. That's it - the whole explanation. If you don't like it - there are literally 100s of non pvp sand box games out there - feel free to go enjoy them, BUT if you come into our pvp sandbox and demand it gets changed because you don't want to be in a pvp sanbox - we will take a dump on you. (and you have it coming to you).

I'm not being a douche here. It is a pvp game. If that's not what you want to buy into and play, then pick another game. It's a total @55 move by you folks to subscribe and then try to radically change the game because you don't like pvp. Me, Leto and your grandma aren't the problem - you are.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#144 - 2015-06-25 15:50:08 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Because the cost is justified as "paying for targets" if I get no targets I should not be paying.

Alternatively CCP could drop the pretense that you are paying for targets when you declare a war (because you really aren't) and admit that the entire purpose of cost scaling was specifically to benefit e-uni.

Basically I have a really old grudge against a really transparent and dishonest explanation given for a particular mechanic and feel that CCP have been really hypocritical about other mechanics that should logically be affected by the same principle.

I think I might have been playing eve too long.


You are paying for the chance at a target. Move to low/null/WHs and you can get targets for free. Why not do that?


No I'm not I am very specifically paying to be able to shoot the members of the corporation or alliance I'm declaring war on, hence the cost goes up based on the quantity of people in that group. Keep in mind that this is not how I personally feel, it's how CCP justified their decisions for the current war declaration pricing system, even though huge numbers of players called it out as making no sense.

If CCP are telling the truth and the concept behind the war pricing structure really is that I am paying for targets then I should either get the targets I pay for or be refunded. If it is not the case that I am paying for targets (which is and always has been the reality) then CCP needs to admit that the pricing structure is designed entirely to provide more CONCORD-PROTECTED protection to the large groups that are the least in need of it whowever jus so happen to hAve had lits of CSM representation when those changes happened.

Until such a time I maintain that if I don't get the targets I pay for I should be refunded on principle.

Also we literally just spent a month in nullsec. It was the most boring thing imaginable.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#145 - 2015-06-25 15:54:58 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Once again Lucas we are left astounded at your ability to take one line from a short paragraph and argue agaisnt it without taking the whole into account.
Hey genius, I did that because you stated that you didn't want to get into a lengthy debate, specifically stating: "let's leave it at rolling corps is a broken mechanic due to its complete lack of risk and no consequences."
So that's what I left it at and responded to that.

Also you responded to 2 of my sentences. #rekt

Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Your simply threatened by this idea because you utilize it on ALT's of your own. In fact I could go so far as to say you are scared of it. Your butt hurt is evident and you are clearly upset.
Almost all of my highsec characters are longstanding members. I have a few gankers ad a few haulers permanently in NPC corps. At no point have I ever corp rolled since wardecs are irrelevant when you don't undock.

Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Although I agree attacking soft targets like spacemonkeys is laughable
See, you say this as if I'm supposed to be insulted, which just shows how delusional you guys truly are. Attacking any null sec group in highsec is attacking a soft target. We don't live there. Any spacemonkey caught in highsec is literally too dumb to understand basic EVE mechanics and so is indeed a soft target.

Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
See how uninformative and stupid that was. Now to answer you properly I'm not proposing punishment. I'm not proposing to stop corp rolling. I am proposing a system that drives conflict instead of nerfs to it. I'm 90% sure you read my F&I post so you know I didn't say lets make it so wars follow people. That's a terrible idea. I didn't say lets make a corp creation cooldown. I don't believe in that either. I have what I consider a well planned approach to the entirety of highsec wars that would change the way they work along with limiting how much any 1 group could hold to ensure that highsec remains a place for smaller scale conflicts and mercenary work remains as viable/necessary as ever.
I've read your F&I post and a lot of it can agree with, though I think the problem is less that people have nothing to defend and more that attackers are rewarded for going after people with no reason to defend their assets. You stand to lose more going after a target which can fight back than going against a target that stands no chance, so you take the efficient choice. I think you should be rewarded more for taking on a target that could crush you and less for going after a target that will die in an instant.

As for what you've stated in this thread though, rolling corps in and of itself is not broken, it's a valid method used by the smallest of targets to evade war. The bigger you are, the less feasible this tactic is. If anything it's the one part of the current mechanics that scales the right way.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#146 - 2015-06-25 15:57:12 UTC
Sandbox game
A Sandbox game is a game that the player has the ability to alter their environment in some substantial matter, hence the term sandbox. The term sandbox is in reference to a child's Sandbox in which you can alter the landscape and build shapes. Not to be confused with the term open-world, where the player may roam openly through the world, without artificial gimmicks to direct a set path. The story driven aspect has no effect on whether a game is sandbox or not, but can sway if a game is open-world.

Not to be confused with I should be able to do whatever I want

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Quendishir
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#147 - 2015-06-25 15:58:06 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants


Welcome to EVE Online, where undocking is consent to PvP, whether you like it or not. It's been that way for ten Goddamn years, and if by now you haven't taken those two brain cells you still have left, rubbed them together and come to this conclusion then maybe, just maybe, the problem is you, and no one else.

Stop trying to **** on my game that I came into knowing what it ******* was becauise you are a self-entitled, risk-adverse ****. Go back to Rift.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#148 - 2015-06-25 16:04:07 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
It doesn't always or even usually have risk or consequences proportional to the gains. It's all over the place.

Player owned customs offices and research in a starbase are two examples where the system works fine. You cannot tear down a POCO and research jobs are typically lengthy enough that tearing down your POS has a clear consequence.

The adjustable tax, offices, hangars and starbases used for non-research purposes are examples where the system does not work fine. Mission runners spend mere minutes reforming their corp and get the benefits of no tax. Hangars and starbases can be setup again in just an hour or less if you know what you're doing. What is it again, -25% manufacturing time and -2% material cost when assembling items in a starbase? Most jobs complete in under a day too. The only thing you're risking is 1 hour of your time once every few months someone wastes their time wardeccing you.
That what you are saying there is called scale. The more corp features you use the longer it takes to reform. The more members in the corp the longer it takes to reform. Like I said, the ease of corp rolling scales with the size and complexity of the corp. And most jobs complete in under a day do they? Obviously you've not ventured very far into industry mate. It's not very often I'm running a job under 5 days long.

McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
The problem isn't that a 1-man corp is not attackable. The problem is that a person in a 1-man corp is gaining significant benefits without any associated risk or significant cost. It's just simple risk-reward. You want the better rewards - lower tax, starbase, etc. - you have to take some risk.
If he takes specific precautions to avoid the risk, then yes, he minimises his risk. I haul though null and have zero risk of dying because of the precautions I take. In any activity in EVE if you take the right precautions you will bring your risk to a minimal level. If a 1 man corp chooses to avoid any jobs over 24 hours, avoid using corp trading, log in every day to make sure he's not decced and pack up if he is, then yes, he minimises his risk. What you are talking about is punishment, not risk. Risk can be mitigated, punishment can't.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#149 - 2015-06-25 16:09:52 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It's a pvp sandbox game. You need to understand that every month when your subscription gets extended. In this game you fight other players for your right to play in the sandbox. Thats the inner soul of the game.
PvP doesn't have to involve shooting other people. Miners competing for ice are engaging in PvP. The "inner soul" is not "pew pew". This is where you "waah, EVE is PvP" people fall down, you don't understand what PvP is. The core of EVE is people playing how they want in a shared universe, not just firing guns at each other in an arena.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#150 - 2015-06-25 16:14:25 UTC
Quendishir wrote:
Stop trying to **** on my game that I came into knowing what it ******* was becauise you are a self-entitled, risk-adverse ****. Go back to Rift.
When did you start playing? What exactly give you the right to claim that people are coming into your game with demands?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#151 - 2015-06-25 16:44:48 UTC
dood. you got Kelled.
Don't flip his switch or he wont stop til it's a threadnaught.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with him.

In truth I agree with Vimsy. The problem with the whole corp rolling thing is that one party is paying for a service, yet the provider of said service is allowed to renege for a negligible price in comparison to that of the costs paid. Rolling the corp isn't the issue so much as the money spent being wasted. If either the dissolution of a corp resulted in a refund of the wardec fee or cost as much as the base fee for issuing a wardec there would be no issue.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#152 - 2015-06-25 16:56:54 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
In truth I agree with Vimsy. The problem with the whole corp rolling thing is that one party is paying for a service, yet the provider of said service is allowed to renege for a negligible price in comparison to that of the costs paid. Rolling the corp isn't the issue so much as the money spent being wasted. If either the dissolution of a corp resulted in a refund of the wardec fee or cost as much as the base fee for issuing a wardec there would be no issue.
Once again, it's target selection. Wardec a 100 man corp with 3 POSes, 10 POCOs and manufacturing & trading lines fully active. See if they roll. They won't because they are too heavily invested. Wardec a 2 man corp with no assets and expect them to easily evade you. Stop being terrible and pick your targets properly. You're literally crying that if you pick the smallest, least capable corps that they avoid you. Boo ******* hoo.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#153 - 2015-06-25 17:04:26 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
In truth I agree with Vimsy. The problem with the whole corp rolling thing is that one party is paying for a service, yet the provider of said service is allowed to renege for a negligible price in comparison to that of the costs paid. Rolling the corp isn't the issue so much as the money spent being wasted. If either the dissolution of a corp resulted in a refund of the wardec fee or cost as much as the base fee for issuing a wardec there would be no issue.
Once again, it's target selection. Wardec a 100 man corp with 3 POSes, 10 POCOs and manufacturing & trading lines fully active. See if they roll. They won't because they are too heavily invested. Wardec a 2 man corp with no assets and expect them to easily evade you. Stop being terrible and pick your targets properly. You're literally crying that if you pick the smallest, least capable corps that they avoid you. Boo ******* hoo.


then it wouldnt be easy....
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#154 - 2015-06-25 17:04:32 UTC
Quendishir wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants


Welcome to EVE Online, where undocking is consent to PvP, whether you like it or not. It's been that way for ten Goddamn years, and if by now you haven't taken those two brain cells you still have left, rubbed them together and come to this conclusion then maybe, just maybe, the problem is you, and no one else.

Stop trying to **** on my game that I came into knowing what it ******* was becauise you are a self-entitled, risk-adverse ****. Go back to Rift.



Isn't Rift the game where you can ride unicorns??? You have to admit that does sound pretty awesome!
Quendishir
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2015-06-25 17:13:47 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Quendishir wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants


Welcome to EVE Online, where undocking is consent to PvP, whether you like it or not. It's been that way for ten Goddamn years, and if by now you haven't taken those two brain cells you still have left, rubbed them together and come to this conclusion then maybe, just maybe, the problem is you, and no one else.

Stop trying to **** on my game that I came into knowing what it ******* was becauise you are a self-entitled, risk-adverse ****. Go back to Rift.



Isn't Rift the game where you can ride unicorns??? You have to admit that does sound pretty awesome!


Rift used to be awesome, before Daglar **** on the players and the architecture for the game's servers was found to be...old, to put it nicely.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#156 - 2015-06-25 17:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Decoy
Lucas Kell wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
It's a pvp sandbox game. You need to understand that every month when your subscription gets extended. In this game you fight other players for your right to play in the sandbox. Thats the inner soul of the game.
PvP doesn't have to involve shooting other people. Miners competing for ice are engaging in PvP. The "inner soul" is not "pew pew". This is where you "waah, EVE is PvP" people fall down, you don't understand what PvP is. The core of EVE is people playing how they want in a shared universe, not just firing guns at each other in an arena.



Not to call your character a dolt, but you're playing the part of a dolt. I specifically said resubscribe every month and not the common 'undocking is consent to pvp' because what you say is true. The inner soul of playing an MMO is the whole hand holding stuff you espouse. The MMO known as eve is where folks go to do all that sharing and caring with friends while they step on the heads of others to achieve common goals. That could be blowing up a super, cornering the halo implant market or duping some incursion idiot out of a few billion in hard earned isk (hint: 2 of those don't involve undocking).

CCP made the call publicly and loud and clear when the allowed GHSC to weasel stomp their marks and get away with it. They went so far as to capitalize on that being the soul of the game when they launched an add campaign based on that little jewel of an operation. Ninnies like you (yeah I just called you a ninny - deal with it) that can't accept the obvious can't be helped.

Here's a RL parallel to your desire for a friendly eve. I desire vast riches and a life of ease where I can play eve all day an pwnt noobs 23/7. The difference between me and you is I have enough neurons to understand that what I desire and what is real are 2 different things. I'm also not self entitled enough to run around the real world telling everyone that they should give me the vast riches that I desire. I just go to work, spend time in my garden and raise my family as best I can.

*snip* Please don't dive into personal attacks. They are not necessary and don't contribute to the discussion constructively. It's also against our rules. ~ ISD Decoy
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#157 - 2015-06-25 17:31:46 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants



It's a pvp sandbox game. You need to understand that every month when your subscription gets extended. In this game you fight other players for your right to play in the sandbox. Thats the inner soul of the game.

Me, Leto, your grandma or anyone else cares all that much if you buy into it or not. Logging in is consent to be a part of a pvp sandbox game. That's it - the whole explanation. If you don't like it - there are literally 100s of non pvp sand box games out there - feel free to go enjoy them, BUT if you come into our pvp sandbox and demand it gets changed because you don't want to be in a pvp sanbox - we will take a dump on you. (and you have it coming to you).

I'm not being a douche here. It is a pvp game. If that's not what you want to buy into and play, then pick another game. It's a total @55 move by you folks to subscribe and then try to radically change the game because you don't like pvp. Me, Leto and your grandma aren't the problem - you are.


Who doesnt like pvp? I think you mistake me for some sort of carebear which im not, i just dont care if someone wants to run missions or wants to mine because thats how they want to play, i dont complain if i wardec someone then they drop corp because i go to where the pvp isnt restricted and fight people who fight back, but that doesnt change the fact that if someone can try and make someone pvp then the other party can counter that. Blueballing is pvp and thats exactly what dropping corp is.

If you dont like that people can blueball you then pick your targets better

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#158 - 2015-06-25 17:36:44 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
dood. you got Kelled.
Don't flip his switch or he wont stop til it's a threadnaught.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with him.

In truth I agree with Vimsy. The problem with the whole corp rolling thing is that one party is paying for a service, yet the provider of said service is allowed to renege for a negligible price in comparison to that of the costs paid. Rolling the corp isn't the issue so much as the money spent being wasted. If either the dissolution of a corp resulted in a refund of the wardec fee or cost as much as the base fee for issuing a wardec there would be no issue.



If you feel that paying a war dec fee is equivalent to paying for kills on your kb - just wow.

The system is fair. You can drop a dec on anyone you like. The guys you put the dec on can do anything (inside the bounds of the EULA) they feel is appropriate as a response. Rolling their corp is a valid response.

If you understood the war dec fee isn't equivalent to paying for kills, then you would be able to take a moral victory knowing that your war dec caused them to dissolve (even if only temporary). Your 'I'm paying for kills' outlook will only lead you to the already evident frustration and anger. Thats not an angle that will ever pay off in eve - you're trying to pay eve (a devastatingly beautiful chaos generator) for a predictable outcome. It's a silly gambit at best.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#159 - 2015-06-25 17:43:03 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
but forcing people into a war who dont want to be in a war also conflicts that core concept, just becuase wardeccers can do what they want why cant carebears, sorta thing, if someone chooses a playstyle they like then why should someone be allowed to come along and disturb that playstyle, that is simply not playing how you want but playing how someone else wants



It's a pvp sandbox game. You need to understand that every month when your subscription gets extended. In this game you fight other players for your right to play in the sandbox. Thats the inner soul of the game.

Me, Leto, your grandma or anyone else cares all that much if you buy into it or not. Logging in is consent to be a part of a pvp sandbox game. That's it - the whole explanation. If you don't like it - there are literally 100s of non pvp sand box games out there - feel free to go enjoy them, BUT if you come into our pvp sandbox and demand it gets changed because you don't want to be in a pvp sanbox - we will take a dump on you. (and you have it coming to you).

I'm not being a douche here. It is a pvp game. If that's not what you want to buy into and play, then pick another game. It's a total @55 move by you folks to subscribe and then try to radically change the game because you don't like pvp. Me, Leto and your grandma aren't the problem - you are.


Who doesnt like pvp? I think you mistake me for some sort of carebear which im not, i just dont care if someone wants to run missions or wants to mine because thats how they want to play, i dont complain if i wardec someone then they drop corp because i go to where the pvp isnt restricted and fight people who fight back, but that doesnt change the fact that if someone can try and make someone pvp then the other party can counter that. Blueballing is pvp and thats exactly what dropping corp is.

If you dont like that people can blueball you then pick your targets better


I like the blue ball mechanic. I also like that no one is immune to anything. I like the chaos. If you feel that some folks are entitled the ability to be free of the chaos then I feel that you are wrong.

NO ONE gets a free pass for anything.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#160 - 2015-06-25 17:49:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
In truth I agree with Vimsy. The problem with the whole corp rolling thing is that one party is paying for a service, yet the provider of said service is allowed to renege for a negligible price in comparison to that of the costs paid. Rolling the corp isn't the issue so much as the money spent being wasted. If either the dissolution of a corp resulted in a refund of the wardec fee or cost as much as the base fee for issuing a wardec there would be no issue.
Once again, it's target selection. Wardec a 100 man corp with 3 POSes, 10 POCOs and manufacturing & trading lines fully active. See if they roll. They won't because they are too heavily invested. Wardec a 2 man corp with no assets and expect them to easily evade you. Stop being terrible and pick your targets properly. You're literally crying that if you pick the smallest, least capable corps that they avoid you. Boo ******* hoo.


I don't cry unless the hooker dies before I'm done.
Even then, only sometimes.
Just stating an opinion.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.