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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hiding from wardecs.

Author
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2015-06-24 21:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Leto Thule
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Lucas - yeah, your right. But I don't know how much I care about 1 man corps. Personally I think if you close the corp you should have a fine which is paid to the wardeccer. I mean they "won", right? Actually that sounds awesome.

Both fatigue ideas are good as well. However... Wardec fatigue would, I think, mirror image the current problem. Without consequence, you would see wardec corps reforming to drop the fatigue.

Highsec war is broken, on both sides. Personally I never understood war in highsec, as there are very few corps that actually use it to gain moons or POCOs or whatever highseccers do. It's good for lols and killing people who don't know how to fit or fly. Yes, I know sometimes that's fun, just not my cup of tea most of the time.


Actually a lot of people use wars to get POCOs however because everything about the war system is so heavily biased in favor of the defender that 90% of the time they hire mercs to do it for them. Moons are less common because frankly they're an abundant resource and the difficulty of destroying a properly set up tower as well as the nuisance of POS reinforcement timers makes contracts to destroy them incredibly expensive.

War fatigue timers would be enormously detrimental to mercenaries as they'd place a hard mechanical limit on your ability to take contracts, it would also be incompatible with the way corporations leaving alliances generates new wars. I also don't see how imposing limits on aggression would in any way improve highsec gameplay, which is already becoming increasingly devoid of ways for people to initiate conflicts.

Similarly restrictions on people doing what they want regarding their corporation membership just prevents people from being part of the group they want to be in and ultimately if someone doesn't want to be at war and has nothing invested in their corporation they wouldn't be heavily impacted by being in an NPC corp anyway.

The way to approach collapsing and reforming corporations as well as the ridiculous levels of passiveness of players in highsec corporations is to make corp membership and a corp being well established more valuable to players and worth defending.

Adding punishments to running away and arbitrary limits on aggression would just annoy everyone involved.


Meh. The majority of highsec wardeccers I know aren't merc corps.

Honestly, I am somewhat surprised to see your viewpoint on corp rollers. I was thinking merc outfits like yours would be quite hateful of being blueballed... But then again I have never been a merc.

It bothers me how easily consequence is avoided in this game, especially being the recipient of a BAW asskicking myself at the start of my EVE life.

Edit: I'm a idiot... Aren't there already rules on repeat wardecs? Like a week downtime before you can Dec the same corp again?

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Azn
Doomheim
#122 - 2015-06-24 22:01:25 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Azn wrote:
This thread was ok until the heaviest user of Anusol in known space, second only to Veers arrived.

Hi Lucas. Still furiously defending your low hanging fruit I see. Have you tried coughing?


Lucas is way better than Veers. Differing viewpoints are inevitable, at least Lucas defends his arguments with an attempt at logic. Veers just sucks.


I just took you off the naughty list. You're wavering. Other people have noticed too.

The only alt allowed to post in C&P

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#123 - 2015-06-24 22:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Leto Thule
Azn wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Azn wrote:
This thread was ok until the heaviest user of Anusol in known space, second only to Veers arrived.

Hi Lucas. Still furiously defending your low hanging fruit I see. Have you tried coughing?


Lucas is way better than Veers. Differing viewpoints are inevitable, at least Lucas defends his arguments with an attempt at logic. Veers just sucks.


I just took you off the naughty list. You're wavering. Other people have noticed too.


I am nobody's punk, and I give no ***** if anyone has noticed anything. If we want the game to be fun, and not just a noob slaughterfest, it needs to be balanced... In BOTH ways.

I'm black ******* legion. Don't like what I have to say? Come get me.

(For the record, I give it about a 75% chance Lucas IS Veers, which is why I made the comparison, however I have no idea who YOU are, so pipe down, unknown.)

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#124 - 2015-06-25 01:10:10 UTC
The only complaint I have about people rolling corps is when they do it before a war actually becomes live. Having never actually been able to shoot those people I feel like I should get the cost of declaring war refunded. In all other instances I couldn't care less.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#125 - 2015-06-25 02:25:52 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The only complaint I have about people rolling corps is when they do it before a war actually becomes live. Having never actually been able to shoot those people I feel like I should get the cost of declaring war refunded. In all other instances I couldn't care less.


Just be more careful about who you dec, it's meant to be a scalpel, not an axe.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#126 - 2015-06-25 07:29:16 UTC
Once again Lucas we are left astounded at your ability to take one line from a short paragraph and argue agaisnt it without taking the whole into account.

Allow me to answer in kind sir

Lucas Kell wrote:
You're simply upset that the lowest end of that scale exists and wan to punish them until their gameplay is no longer feasible. Maybe if you guys grew a pair and stopped attacking soft targets

Your simply threatened by this idea because you utilize it on ALT's of your own. In fact I could go so far as to say you are scared of it. Your butt hurt is evident and you are clearly upset. Although I agree attacking soft targets like spacemonkeys is laughable

See how uninformative and stupid that was. Now to answer you properly I'm not proposing punishment. I'm not proposing to stop corp rolling. I am proposing a system that drives conflict instead of nerfs to it. I'm 90% sure you read my F&I post so you know I didn't say lets make it so wars follow people. That's a terrible idea. I didn't say lets make a corp creation cooldown. I don't believe in that either. I have what I consider a well planned approach to the entirety of highsec wars that would change the way they work along with limiting how much any 1 group could hold to ensure that highsec remains a place for smaller scale conflicts and mercenary work remains as viable/necessary as ever.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#127 - 2015-06-25 08:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Lucas Kell wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
let's leave it at rolling corps is a broken mechanic due to its complete lack of risk and no consequences.
I disagree. It has a risk and consequences proportional to the size and complexity of the corp. You're simply upset that the lowest end of that scale exists and wan to punish them until their gameplay is no longer feasible. Maybe if you guys grew a pair and stopped attacking soft targets you'd have less trouble from corp rollers.
It doesn't always or even usually have risk or consequences proportional to the gains. It's all over the place.

Player owned customs offices and research in a starbase are two examples where the system works fine. You cannot tear down a POCO and research jobs are typically lengthy enough that tearing down your POS has a clear consequence.

The adjustable tax, offices, hangars and starbases used for non-research purposes are examples where the system does not work fine. Mission runners spend mere minutes reforming their corp and get the benefits of no tax. Hangars and starbases can be setup again in just an hour or less if you know what you're doing. What is it again, -25% manufacturing time and -2% material cost when assembling items in a starbase? Most jobs complete in under a day too. The only thing you're risking is 1 hour of your time once every few months someone wastes their time wardeccing you.

The problem isn't that a 1-man corp is not attackable. The problem is that a person in a 1-man corp is gaining significant benefits without any associated risk or significant cost. It's just simple risk-reward. You want the better rewards - lower tax, starbase, etc. - you have to take some risk.

Leto Thule wrote:
I am nobody's punk, and I give no ***** if anyone has noticed anything. If we want the game to be fun, and not just a noob slaughterfest, it needs to be balanced... In BOTH ways.

I'm black ******* legion. Don't like what I have to say? Come get me.
1v1 at the sun irl NOW

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#128 - 2015-06-25 10:56:50 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The only complaint I have about people rolling corps is when they do it before a war actually becomes live. Having never actually been able to shoot those people I feel like I should get the cost of declaring war refunded. In all other instances I couldn't care less.


Just be more careful about who you dec, it's meant to be a scalpel, not an axe.

I personally am extremely careful about who I declare war on and I think I've had people roll their corps on me maybe 3 times ever. Considering I declare several hundred wars a year that's pretty good.

The specific part about rolling a corp before a war goes live that I dislike is that the cost of declaring wars was justified by CCP as "paying for targets" while I personally don't see it like that paying a fee but never getting any targets is contrary to that. If the fee I pay to declare a war is because I am paying for targets, if I get no targets I shouldn't have to pay.
Quendishir
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#129 - 2015-06-25 12:10:06 UTC
I recently left a corp that had been ragedec'd by a guy. Said player had been canbaiting in Apanake, using a Vexor to grab the can, then having the toon that dropped the can "aggress" him. I pointed out that he was an imbecile for doing it that way, as anyone paying the least bit attention would have realized the trick. I was wrong, though...he was simply an imbecile. You want to see the chat log with him?

Quote:
[ 2015.06.22 02:35:21 ] Redacted > Good evening sir.
[ 2015.06.22 02:35:25 ] Redacted > How are you tonight?
[ 2015.06.22 02:35:32 ] Quendishir > Can I help you?
[ 2015.06.22 02:35:41 ] Redacted > Why yes. You can.
[ 2015.06.22 02:35:46 ] Redacted > I come with a very fair offer.
[ 2015.06.22 02:35:54 ] Quendishir > ib4 ragedec
[ 2015.06.22 02:36:14 ] Redacted > Pony up 1 billion
[ 2015.06.22 02:36:21 ] Redacted > Or I bring my alliance after your's.
[ 2015.06.22 02:36:30 ] Quendishir > You mean I'd have to go back to the wormhole?
[ 2015.06.22 02:36:31 ] Quendishir > D:
[ 2015.06.22 02:36:34 ] Quendishir > Not that!
[ 2015.06.22 02:36:48 ] Redacted > You see sir. You talk to much.
[ 2015.06.22 02:37:06 ] Redacted > Like a budding scrub lord. Who hasn't quite found their footing yet.
[ 2015.06.22 02:38:30 ] Quendishir > [Killboard link removed.]
[ 2015.06.22 02:38:32 ] Quendishir > Good luck.


That was all. Just telling him he was an imbecile praying on stupid people was enough to trigger a ragedec, one in which he'd been made aware in local that he wouldn't get kills on, because I already had plans to leave my then-current corporation, and that corporation lived in a wormhole, with out-of-corp haulers doing the logistics. He didn't believe me.

He was rather upset when I left said corporation. Of course, he never actually undocked to fight me, and he knew I was in a Rook, ready to fight. He was unwilling to engage solo, or even with two of his buddies in Dodixie, ready to help him. I sat outside M20 station, waiting. Hell, I went AFK for ten minutes. Came back and he'd logged. I was ready to fight and have a bit of fun, he was looking for an easy kill.

Maybe it's not fair to say ragedecs are more common now. Maybe it's more proper to say that there's a growing trend of players in high sec to band together and declare war on missioners. I don't know, I've just never seen the appeal of deccing carebears. Yeah, you see the shiny ships, but those ships will either stay docked, or be in another corp by the time the war starts going. I don't know, it's just never been my cup of tea. I love the fight, and the adrenaline rush associated with it. Ask NetheranE, or SureShot001, or anyone else who has flown with me in high-sec: I want fights, not a slaughter.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#130 - 2015-06-25 13:07:42 UTC
is his name really Redacted?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#131 - 2015-06-25 13:16:54 UTC
That is a really dumb way to suspect bait. He should just have a random alt alt drop a depot in a safe off grid safe and use that to get his timer. Then he can have his alt shoot him all day without any interruption to his suspect timer.

Using cans for anything is archaic.
Quendishir
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2015-06-25 13:28:27 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
is his name really Redacted?


No; I removed it to conform with CCP's policy of "NO GORRAM CHAT LOGS BECAUSE SOMEONE'S FEELINGS MIGHT BE HURT".
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#133 - 2015-06-25 14:05:50 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The only complaint I have about people rolling corps is when they do it before a war actually becomes live. Having never actually been able to shoot those people I feel like I should get the cost of declaring war refunded. In all other instances I couldn't care less.


But you can shoot them. Cowboy up and let Concord shoot you back as intended in high sec. Or move to low/null/WHs and do some real fighting.

I swear, reading things like this makes me see HS wardeccers kind of like carebears. They want easy kills for no risk.
takedoom
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2015-06-25 14:39:03 UTC
Freya Sertan wrote:
Roll

So, I log back in after a week or so of training another character and I find an evemail telling corp members to hide in station or spend time away from EvE because of an active wardec.

I don't quite understand why someone would hide for over a week from another corp/alliance. I'm frustrated by this. I've expressed displeasure with the idea of hiding and it was met with a brick wall. I don't want to quit the corp because the guys are mostly cool but damn.

So, Bad Neighbors, I'll do my best to undock tonight when I get home from work for some gudfights even if no one else will.

...there's even a bulletin stating "DO NOT LOSE A SHIP".

Screw you, this is EvE.


*NPC Corp* /sigh

http://spinthatdamnship.ytmnd.com/

Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#135 - 2015-06-25 14:41:15 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The only complaint I have about people rolling corps is when they do it before a war actually becomes live. Having never actually been able to shoot those people I feel like I should get the cost of declaring war refunded. In all other instances I couldn't care less.


Just be more careful about who you dec, it's meant to be a scalpel, not an axe.

I personally am extremely careful about who I declare war on and I think I've had people roll their corps on me maybe 3 times ever. Considering I declare several hundred wars a year that's pretty good.

The specific part about rolling a corp before a war goes live that I dislike is that the cost of declaring wars was justified by CCP as "paying for targets" while I personally don't see it like that paying a fee but never getting any targets is contrary to that. If the fee I pay to declare a war is because I am paying for targets, if I get no targets I shouldn't have to pay.


why should you get money back for making a bad decision and picking a worthless corp to wardec? you sound like one of the entitled carebears who think they should have things because they threw a bit of isk at it.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#136 - 2015-06-25 14:51:41 UTC
I think the best solution to this is to have a hard cap of 10 active war decs at any one time. Code in an exclusion for when a corp leaves an alliance. Only count war decs that you actively undertake: 1 - declaring war and 2- assisting someone.

10 total at any one time. HS war decs are concord sanctioned, so cite paperwork and administrative poop as the basis for the concord limit. The hub turkey shoots would disappear.

Certain aspects of the current day war dec practices (marmites) are just so low skill they need to go. I have an alt that was in a HS POCO collecting alliance, so we dealt a lot w/ war decs. There are a handful of corps that auto send a mail to assist for X amount of isk ON EVERY SINGLE WAR DEC that gets dropped. That's just a bad mechanic.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#137 - 2015-06-25 14:56:13 UTC
Because the cost is justified as "paying for targets" if I get no targets I should not be paying.

Alternatively CCP could drop the pretense that you are paying for targets when you declare a war (because you really aren't) and admit that the entire purpose of cost scaling was specifically to benefit e-uni.

Basically I have a really old grudge against a really transparent and dishonest explanation given for a particular mechanic and feel that CCP have been really hypocritical about other mechanics that should logically be affected by the same principle.

I think I might have been playing eve too long.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#138 - 2015-06-25 15:08:38 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Because the cost is justified as "paying for targets" if I get no targets I should not be paying.

Alternatively CCP could drop the pretense that you are paying for targets when you declare a war (because you really aren't) and admit that the entire purpose of cost scaling was specifically to benefit e-uni.

Basically I have a really old grudge against a really transparent and dishonest explanation given for a particular mechanic and feel that CCP have been really hypocritical about other mechanics that should logically be affected by the same principle.

I think I might have been playing eve too long.


You are paying for the chance at a target. Move to low/null/WHs and you can get targets for free. Why not do that?

Valkin Mordirc
#139 - 2015-06-25 15:30:36 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Because the cost is justified as "paying for targets" if I get no targets I should not be paying.

Alternatively CCP could drop the pretense that you are paying for targets when you declare a war (because you really aren't) and admit that the entire purpose of cost scaling was specifically to benefit e-uni.

Basically I have a really old grudge against a really transparent and dishonest explanation given for a particular mechanic and feel that CCP have been really hypocritical about other mechanics that should logically be affected by the same principle.

I think I might have been playing eve too long.


You are paying for the chance at a target. Move to low/null/WHs and you can get targets for free. Why not do that?




Because POCO contracts are decent way to make isk. Because a lot of people fly stupidly blinged **** in highsec and when you get a faction fitted drake it pays well. Because it content creation, Because it fun. Because Highsec isn't ment to be safe, Because paid wardecs are profitable.


I could go on, but you get the point.

Oh and BAW does go into lowsec all the bleeding time.
#DeleteTheWeak
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2015-06-25 15:35:00 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Because the cost is justified as "paying for targets" if I get no targets I should not be paying.

Alternatively CCP could drop the pretense that you are paying for targets when you declare a war (because you really aren't) and admit that the entire purpose of cost scaling was specifically to benefit e-uni.

Basically I have a really old grudge against a really transparent and dishonest explanation given for a particular mechanic and feel that CCP have been really hypocritical about other mechanics that should logically be affected by the same principle.

I think I might have been playing eve too long.


You are paying for the chance at a target. Move to low/null/WHs and you can get targets for free. Why not do that?



The belief that all pvp belongs in low sec zones is a bad one. The different security zones are vehicles to provide differing sets of mechanics based on what players want to do. It isn't intended as a pvp free area or some sort of safe zone.

Telling someone "go move here to do this" is detrimental to the core concept of "do whatever you want" that defines EVE.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment