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The end of Hybrid buff
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Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2011-12-30 07:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
latest huge battle:
Umega wrote:

But hybrids.. are much nicer now and good. did ya folks know? A rail has more dps than a comparable sized arty? I'm not talking about projection, which is obvious.. more dps Period as well. The more you know. Not everyone can.. or should be alpha. Want something.. train for it, don't demand it handed to you.

oh yeah
tornado 8x1400mm arties with 2 gyro rf emp 606 dps 10700 alpha
vs
talos 8x425mm rails with 2 mfs cn am 676dps 3790 alpha

all for a whooping 11% better paper dps
while artie gets 180% more alpha
and gets 80% cap recharge free
(btw why the hell the 0 cap weapon ship has the same cap recharge as the others?:O winmatar online)
and probably will have a dps advantage once it loads proper dmg type ammo

yes i see how balanced arties are....
"Want something.. train for it, "
so thats why everybody uses arites unbalanced as hell

latest huge battle: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12007359
the main type of ships were abaddons vs maels both tanky sniper fit
the maels fitted arties obviously
oh but wait abaddons fitted arties too why would they drop the dmg bonus? :O
imba arties needs a huge nerf
Umega
Solis Mensa
#302 - 2011-12-30 09:34:03 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
latest huge battle:
Umega wrote:

But hybrids.. are much nicer now and good. did ya folks know? A rail has more dps than a comparable sized arty? I'm not talking about projection, which is obvious.. more dps Period as well. The more you know. Not everyone can.. or should be alpha. Want something.. train for it, don't demand it handed to you.

oh yeah
tornado 8x1400mm arties with 2 gyro rf emp 606 dps 10700 alpha
vs
talos 8x425mm rails with 2 mfs cn am 676dps 3790 alpha

all for a whooping 11% better paper dps
while artie gets 180% more alpha
and gets 80% cap recharge free
(btw why the hell the 0 cap weapon ship has the same cap recharge as the others?:O winmatar online)
and probably will have a dps advantage once it loads proper dmg type ammo

yes i see how balanced arties are....
"Want something.. train for it, "
so thats why everybody uses arites unbalanced as hell

latest huge battle: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12007359
the main type of ships were abaddons vs maels both tanky sniper fit
the maels fitted arties obviously
oh but wait abaddons fitted arties too why would they drop the dmg bonus? :O
imba arties needs a huge nerf


You should stop talking out of ass and posting things that aren't even real. Are you not pleased already with how many ppl do not take you at all seriously? If you're trying for everyone, keep it up. You're getting there, Naomi.

Please do fail to point out the dps curve, the range, and dmg projection with your numbers on the one scenario you decided to pick. On top of that, you fail in your choice of ships for comparison.. because one has a dmg bonus, the other is RoF. If you're going to compare such things correctly, either do so with no ship bonuses effecting the numbers, or them having the same exact bonus effect on each indivual weapon system. Come on now. Stop feeding the postless information getters false info.. that's part of the problem here.

Please do fail to point out that Matar typically, in all ship classes and catagories (including T3s).. have the lowest cap. Making their recharge amount tic lower, ontop of not having as much in the cap 'tank' to begin with than the other 3 races. Matar also tend to have the lowest sensor strength of all the races in every ship class as well. Again.. stop misleading people.

And posting something about how ppl flock n follow a certain idealogy cause it is what is popular now completely proves my originally point. Thank you.

Arties are not God. Just takes a couple of bold numbnut FCs to pull the TD rabbit out instead of mass ecm for ewar.. and pummel an arty fleet with rails or lasers or cruise (that need a buff/rework more than anything by far) with an increased range suppority. If fighting in Arty's optimal.. really, just hammer them with a nano blaster fleet, easily break their tracking and already be close to them..

NEWS FLASH - Like ACs.. fighting in falloff reduces arty dps AND the alpha. If you're an arty boat fighting in optimal using top dmg dealer ammo.. kudos, hope your 'worse in league' tracking isn't burned doing so at those cliqs. If not.. kiss those numbers goodbye, a couple cannons missing really plummets alpha numbers. I rather there be the differences in rail/tach/arty that exists now, than force them to behave closer together. How boring that would be.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#303 - 2011-12-30 09:34:36 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
l
oh yeah
tornado 8x1400mm arties with 2 gyro rf emp 606 dps 10700 alpha
vs
talos 8x425mm rails with 2 mfs cn am 676dps 3790 alpha

all for a whooping 11% better paper dps
while artie gets 180% more alpha
and gets 80% cap recharge free
(btw why the hell the 0 cap weapon ship has the same cap recharge as the others?:O winmatar online)
and probably will have a dps advantage once it loads proper dmg type ammo



Just in case anybody bothers to read Naomi Troll's posts anymore:

1) The 425mm T2 rail Talos can actually exist (unlike your Lolnado which is already 3.12% over grid with just those mods)

2) Talos tracks 0.0174 vs 0.0112 = 55% better

3) Talos is cap stable at 61.9% which is also totally meaningless considering it does pretty much full dps out to 40km

So even in your imaginary scenario the Talos blatantly wins the failmatar.

Nerf rails!




.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#304 - 2011-12-30 10:04:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
l
oh yeah
tornado 8x1400mm arties with 2 gyro rf emp 606 dps 10700 alpha
vs
talos 8x425mm rails with 2 mfs cn am 676dps 3790 alpha

all for a whooping 11% better paper dps
while artie gets 180% more alpha
and gets 80% cap recharge free
(btw why the hell the 0 cap weapon ship has the same cap recharge as the others?:O winmatar online)
and probably will have a dps advantage once it loads proper dmg type ammo



Just in case anybody bothers to read Naomi Troll's posts anymore:

1) The 425mm T2 rail Talos can actually exist (unlike your Lolnado which is already 3.12% over grid with just those mods)

2) Talos tracks 0.0174 vs 0.0112 = 55% better

3) Talos is cap stable at 61.9% which is also totally meaningless considering it does pretty much full dps out to 40km

So even in your imaginary scenario the Talos blatantly wins the failmatar.

Nerf rails!





1, anciliary rigs oh you never heared of those, yeah i guess pve has its limits after all :P
2, so?
3, cap stable until it doesnt need to run anything else , with mwd it runs out of cap way faster than the tornado
if you think that is not important ,then you are probably never been in fleet battle

imaginary scenario?? jesus there wasnt a scenario at all just comparing some stats
not like your failiang friend who 1v1 brutix vs cane or other never happen in a lifetime scenarios
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2011-12-30 10:43:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
l
oh yeah
tornado 8x1400mm arties with 2 gyro rf emp 606 dps 10700 alpha
vs
talos 8x425mm rails with 2 mfs cn am 676dps 3790 alpha

all for a whooping 11% better paper dps
while artie gets 180% more alpha
and gets 80% cap recharge free
(btw why the hell the 0 cap weapon ship has the same cap recharge as the others?:O winmatar online)
and probably will have a dps advantage once it loads proper dmg type ammo



Just in case anybody bothers to read Naomi Troll's posts anymore:

1) The 425mm T2 rail Talos can actually exist (unlike your Lolnado which is already 3.12% over grid with just those mods)

2) Talos tracks 0.0174 vs 0.0112 = 55% better

3) Talos is cap stable at 61.9% which is also totally meaningless considering it does pretty much full dps out to 40km

So even in your imaginary scenario the Talos blatantly wins the failmatar.

Nerf rails!






This would be cool if you werent talking about autocannon ranges.........Tornado hits 40k with shortrange faction ammo and I assure you a rail talos doesn't want that fight
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2011-12-30 10:47:31 UTC
Umega wrote:

You should stop talking out of ass and posting things that aren't even real.

Please do fail to point out the dps curve, the range, and dmg projection with your numbers on the one scenario you decided to pick. On top of that, you fail in your choice of ships for comparison.. because one has a dmg bonus, the other is RoF. If you're going to compare such things correctly, either do so with no ship bonuses effecting the numbers, or them having the same exact bonus effect on each indivual weapon system. Come on now. Stop feeding the postless information getters false info.. that's part of the problem here.

yep this is a game nothing is real in it :) quess i ruined your childhood now my bad sorry:(

again what scenario did i pick??
most matar ships get rof bonus most gall ones dmg bonus , I think it is more appropriate to use those as base also why should I choose unbonused ships? should i also drop the ships? have you ever seen in game someone who flies only 8 turrets without a ship to put those on it ? cause i havent
btw this still doesnt answer why the abaddons are fitted with arties, not beams if lr turrets are so balanced

Umega wrote:

Please do fail to point out that Matar typically, in all ship classes and catagories (including T3s).. have the lowest cap. Making their recharge amount tic lower, ontop of not having as much in the cap 'tank' to begin with than the other 3 races. Matar also tend to have the lowest sensor strength of all the races in every ship class as well. Again.. stop misleading people.

matar ships have the lowest cap , yup but they are the fastest with recharge time too so they even eachother out, all in all they have similar cap recharge to the other races in most cases, the no cap use guns greatly outshines anything the less base cap does
now you come with the lowest sensor strength:D i love that that 5-10% must be a huge disadvantage seeing how everybody use jammers nonstop
also matar has many advantages i didnt point out ,so?

Umega wrote:

And posting something about how ppl flock n follow a certain idealogy cause it is what is popular now completely proves my originally point. Thank you.


so they are using arties cause maybe they like the sound of them?? yes totally belivable
also they use abaddons due to the awesome golden hull , must be amarr rpers but why would they use arties then? make no sense to me

maybe they use them cause they work the best , especially as huge alliances are fighting over territories, they tend to use the everything what helps them , remember the huge dread blobs? , nothing could compete it until sc boost then sc blobs took over , not because they followed what is popular but because it is just way better , and because it is better it gets popular

in short the majority of ppl will use what is the best
Umega wrote:

Arties are not God. Just takes a couple of bold numbnut FCs to pull the TD rabbit out instead of mass ecm for ewar.. and pummel an arty fleet with rails or lasers or cruise (that need a buff/rework more than anything by far) with an increased range suppority. If fighting in Arty's optimal.. really, just hammer them with a nano blaster fleet, easily break their tracking and already be close to them..

hoh we used td/damp fitted drakes vs those arty battleships quess what they didnt work that well at all
the huge advantage of arties is no cap use so they can keep on mwding much longer/frequent than any rail or beam fitted ones could, so as nearly everybody uses arties over the others i could say arties are God of long range warfare
nano blaster fleet ... i quess they would run out of capa faster than the snipers :D btw how do you thing they would get close?
if they warp in at 0 snipers would just warp out , maybe they would get a lucky dictor and manage to warp to 0 somehow , but could only catch a couple of snipers the rest would be able to warp away or increase the distance , and after that blaster have no choice but disengage , or die capped out

Umega wrote:

NEWS FLASH - Like ACs.. fighting in falloff reduces arty dps AND the alpha. If you're an arty boat fighting in optimal using top dmg dealer ammo.. kudos, hope your 'worse in league' tracking isn't burned doing so at those cliqs. If not.. kiss those numbers goodbye, a couple cannons missing really plummets alpha numbers. I rather there be the differences in rail/tach/arty that exists now, than force them to behave closer together. How boring that would be.


fighting in falloff ...blabla with 70-90km falloff you would hardly notice any dps/alpha drop , 30km and you still only lost 10% that is more than good enough
at 70km the arties take over rails in dps quess what range most of these fights happens , yup around 70km :P
now make a rail fleet and im sure if you do it often enemy will start to fit resists just to better counter them ,what couldnt be done at all vs arties

the difference is that arties are just have better alpha and no cap use + choosable dmg type over what the other ones offer :)
boring isnt it?
by nerfing arties dps they would realy stand out , arties for alpha ,rails for something still no clr advantage at all, beams for tracking /dps
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2011-12-30 10:49:17 UTC
oh tell me what ships should i use for comparison , until then there is no reason to do anything with numbers to back it up ,cause you just bring some ****** excuses why the comparison is false
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2011-12-30 11:22:21 UTC
You can't help yourself can you?
rampro
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2011-12-30 11:32:03 UTC
flying a talos without a web is suicide , however I like null it hits well.
Tak McMonagle
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#310 - 2011-12-30 12:05:09 UTC
rampro wrote:
flying a talos without a web is suicide , however I like null it hits well.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Hera+Darkthorn

Just browse through it a little. You'll notice the talos is used quite a bit, and it never has a web.

I don't understand why people always talk so much thoerycraft. I understand using it to theorize about a battle, so that you can make the most educated guess on how to win, but some of you seem to think the more you argue about what you believe, the more people are going to listen. Show us something that states what you're trying to say. Nobody is going to take the things you say seriously otherwise.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#311 - 2011-12-30 12:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Ok now this thread is EFT warrioring in a battle where some warriors prefer to use the magic of asshattery instead of EFT or similar as the source.

Naomi :D

1) did you try to fit that Tornado? You need 3 ACRs to get prop and 1 LSE on it. (You can also use ACRs in PvE, btw) Talos with the biggest guns still has ample room to fit damage rigs or whatever you damn well please :D Yes, this just increases the DPS advantage for Talos.

2) I don't think you've ever even undocked. That small difference in tracking speed amounts to 10-20% difference in the chance to hit when the ships are moving. Missing shots wouldn't hurt the railgun platform as much as it does hurt a ship with a whopping 17.6s gun cycle time.

3) Tornado is dead well before anyone runs out cap

4) Talos has room for a second nano, making it faster than the Tornado :P


Anyway I now think you are just trolling for the lulz and this feels like a waste of time and webspace. See you in game, Knight- o7


Onictus wrote:

This would be cool if you werent talking about autocannon ranges.........Tornado hits 40k with shortrange faction ammo and I assure you a rail talos doesn't want that fight


Hi Onictus, Talos outdamages the Tornado all they way up to their locking ranges. I'm sure the Talos wants the fight, as it's better in every single stat except alpha, scan res, sig and cap usage.

.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2011-12-30 12:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
double
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2011-12-30 13:11:30 UTC
Roime wrote:




Hi Onictus, Talos outdamages the Tornado all they way up to their locking ranges. I'm sure the Talos wants the fight, as it's better in every single stat except alpha, scan res, sig and cap usage.


Except that the AC Tornado doesn't need ACRs (or any fitting mods), and is pushing 40k EHP with dual MCDFE and a couple LSE/invulns at 40km you are right around 50% falloff with barrage and you can get a nano on the Tornado as well...and a dual nano talos only takes a few decent shots before its need to be elsewhere or blow up.

Get inside 30km, and you have a distinct advantage because 425mm have tracking issues in that close I've chased more than one Talos off gate snipes points with the exact set up....and that is the crux rails and beams aren't really used because INSIDE 100km the sniper has VERY little breathing room against either scorch pulses or barrage autos and the fittings allow for far more leeway in terms of tank with the shorter range weapons.

That is exactly how I fly my Tornado x2 TE and a nano with max buffer. It hits around 75km with barrage and crushes at medium ranges while being as fast or faster than every other medium hull not a 100mn T3 or Stabber.

Which was my point, fighting under 60km against an Oracle or Tornado with short range guns puts the Talos at a disadvantage.....much less a Naga, that ALSO can fit more tank and hit to around 70km with shortrange ammo.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2011-12-30 13:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebastian N Cain
Roime wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

What i am talking about is not how much damage Blasters do or how much tank Gallente has, their fighting strength, or however you want to call it (and what you are apparently talking about), but how widespread the tactics can be used and still be viable. What i am talking about are all the features that would make Blasterboats useful and competitive in any kind of situation from solo to fleet you might encounter (well, of course any situation where you would use any short-range turret, not situations you would use long-range turrets or other weapons).
And such distinctive features are simply not there.

The others obviously can be used anywhere in any situation (again with the qualifier i already mentioned above), so they are designed for their role, Gallente blasterboats can only be used in specific situations and/or with special preparations, so they aren´t designed for their roles. And no reasonable amount of dps or tank or whatever will change that part, you have to go for changes in the basic design for it
(and my proposal for Minmatar was just because the basic design fits pretty good and only tweaking the stats would be required, much easier to do than making Gallente work everywhere... if everyone really insists and the devs don´t mind the extra work and difficulties... well just wanted to make it easy for you, i don´t mind if you want to go optimizing Gallente for close combat instead but don´t screw up because you just had to do it the hard way).

And if you are saying it´s fine this way, here i strongly disagree. No other race is limitated to specific situations and/or preparations, so this is clearly not intended (well, if you want to go the other way and put such restrictions on all races and weapons, i would be fine with that as well, but be prepared to get deaf from all the hate screaming;).


idk why you are obsessed on making blasterboats viable in every situation

No ships or weapon systems are perfect in every situation.

Blaster frigates are awesome, drone boats are awesome, caps are awesome. We don't have a kiting nano BC (except the Talos) or a 0.0 large fleet BS, but if it's somehow a balance issue not to have ships to those niches, then it's rails and T2 ammos that need to be looked at, and not blasters.

Not for every situation, just as many as ACs and pulses cover....
as for why... why not? Since the other weapon systems aren´t restricted that way, why should Gallente be? I would like to use them more, just the niches they cover doesn´t really appeal to me for the most time. This wouldn´t be an issue if they were a full-fledged alternative to ACs and pulses.
Frigates, Droneboats, Caps.... you are aware that the whole hybrid balancing thing is about medium and large hybrids and their hulls? And you could say that especially BCs and BS are the most important ship classes in eve, especially if you want to cover as much of pvp (and also pve) as possible.

And last but not least it´s something the devs want to achieve as well and are currently working on it, so it wouldn´t be wrong to make sure they get it right (well to discuss whether they got it right and how that might happen, to be more precise... it´s not like they are going to listen to usP).

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2011-12-30 14:18:40 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Roime wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

What i am talking about is not how much damage Blasters do or how much tank Gallente has, their fighting strength, or however you want to call it (and what you are apparently talking about), but how widespread the tactics can be used and still be viable. What i am talking about are all the features that would make Blasterboats useful and competitive in any kind of situation from solo to fleet you might encounter (well, of course any situation where you would use any short-range turret, not situations you would use long-range turrets or other weapons).
And such distinctive features are simply not there.

The others obviously can be used anywhere in any situation (again with the qualifier i already mentioned above), so they are designed for their role, Gallente blasterboats can only be used in specific situations and/or with special preparations, so they aren´t designed for their roles. And no reasonable amount of dps or tank or whatever will change that part, you have to go for changes in the basic design for it
(and my proposal for Minmatar was just because the basic design fits pretty good and only tweaking the stats would be required, much easier to do than making Gallente work everywhere... if everyone really insists and the devs don´t mind the extra work and difficulties... well just wanted to make it easy for you, i don´t mind if you want to go optimizing Gallente for close combat instead but don´t screw up because you just had to do it the hard way).

And if you are saying it´s fine this way, here i strongly disagree. No other race is limitated to specific situations and/or preparations, so this is clearly not intended (well, if you want to go the other way and put such restrictions on all races and weapons, i would be fine with that as well, but be prepared to get deaf from all the hate screaming;).


idk why you are obsessed on making blasterboats viable in every situation

No ships or weapon systems are perfect in every situation.

Blaster frigates are awesome, drone boats are awesome, caps are awesome. We don't have a kiting nano BC (except the Talos) or a 0.0 large fleet BS, but if it's somehow a balance issue not to have ships to those niches, then it's rails and T2 ammos that need to be looked at, and not blasters.

Not for every situation, just as many as ACs and pulses cover....
as for why... why not? Since the other weapon systems aren´t restricted that way, why should Gallente be? I would like to use them more, just the niches they cover doesn´t really appeal to me for the most time. This wouldn´t be an issue if they were a full-fledged alternative to ACs and pulses.
Frigates, Droneboats, Caps.... you are aware that the whole hybrid balancing thing is about medium and large hybrids and their hulls? And you could say that especially BCs and BS are the most important ship classes in eve, especially if you want to cover as much of pvp (and also pve) as possible.

And last but not least it´s something the devs want to achieve as well and are currently working on it, so it wouldn´t be wrong to make sure they get it right (well to discuss whether they got it right and how that might happen, to be more precise... it´s not like they are going to listen to usP).



I wouldn't mind seeing rail tracking buffed to where the rails actually work in medium-short ranges the problem being is matar ships with AC's would still be superior becuase the ships are faster overall.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#316 - 2011-12-30 14:22:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:
- good stuff -.


Ok, got you now, that just wasn't the comparison Naomi presented about the biggest long range turrets.

That rail/dual nano Talos is low on EHP compared to your buffer AC Tornado, true. (I got 38.6K with the fit below, DCUII would take it 46.6K) ... but the rail Talos does more damage at all ranges and is faster. Not much faster, about the same difference as between a shield gank Brutix and a Nanocane, but this ~100m/s seems to be used a lot as the basis for OP kiting trololol winmatar speed etc.

Then again comparing similar Talos paints another picture. Even with dual nanos the Talos gets 34.5K EHP, less than Tornado, but wins the DPS race below 30km with every possible ammo combo. Under web ranges the difference is HUGE for blasters.

Doesn't sound like a big deal, but that damn blasterboat is actually faster than the Minmatar.


[Tornado, Tornado arties]

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Shield Extender II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Sensor Booster II

Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I




[Tornado, Tornado AC]

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Invulnerability Field II

Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


520dps / 38.6K EHP / 1818 m/s


[Talos, Talos rails]

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
'Anointed' EM Ward Reinforcement
Invulnerability Field II

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

Medium Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I


Warrior II x5


728 dps / 22.3K EHP / 1898 m/s


[Talos, Talos blasters]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

1020dps / 34.5K EHP / 1898 m/s


I might be missing something and the difference between you and me now is hands-on experience, I haven't flown the Talos nor the Tornado (got BC V but haven't trained large hybrids until now, for obvious reasons :D ), I'm Gallente and haven't fitted a real pixel minnie AC ship in my life and I'm not out to contest you for these reasons-

... but it does look like the Tier 3s are rather well balanced, and now I'm anxious to fly the Talos. Rail Talos certainly looks a lot better than a rail Brutix.

Also, I demand a forum EFT warrior medal for this post.



.
Tak McMonagle
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2011-12-30 14:39:29 UTC
Roime wrote:
Onictus wrote:
- good stuff -.


- almost good fits -



You forgot the warp disruptors, unless we're not talking about pvp anymore.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#318 - 2011-12-30 14:41:08 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:

Not for every situation, just as many as ACs and pulses cover....
as for why... why not? Since the other weapon systems aren´t restricted that way, why should Gallente be? I would like to use them more, just the niches they cover doesn´t really appeal to me for the most time. This wouldn´t be an issue if they were a full-fledged alternative to ACs and pulses.


Pulses and ACs don't cut it against blasters inside blaster range. This is the thing that has changed, pre-Crucible pulses were close (ACs never were but winmatards can't EFT), now there is a clear gap. If the niche does not appeal to you, that's cool, but it's nothing more than a personal preference.

Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Frigates, Droneboats, Caps.... you are aware that the whole hybrid balancing thing is about medium and large hybrids and their hulls? And you could say that especially BCs and BS are the most important ship classes in eve, especially if you want to cover as much of pvp (and also pve) as possible.


No, I was not aware, and probably CCP wasn't either as the blaster frigs, Vexor, Ishtar and Domi were all buffed. Anyway I mentioned these and well-regarded caps because as a race Gallente has plenty of flexibilty and balance.

Quote:
And last but not least it´s something the devs want to achieve as well and are currently working on it, so it wouldn´t be wrong to make sure they get it right (well to discuss whether they got it right and how that might happen, to be more precise... it´s not like they are going to listen to usP).


I'm not disagreeing with the statement that lower tier BCs and large fleet BSs still need some balancing work, everybody agrees with that imo. Many lower tier BCs more or less suck, same goes for fleet battleships.

I also think CCP Tallest did very good work with Crucible and while this discussion is fun and all, he can finish the balancing even without our expert input :)

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#319 - 2011-12-30 14:44:57 UTC
Tak McMonagle wrote:
Roime wrote:
Onictus wrote:
- good stuff -.


- almost good fits -



You forgot the warp disruptors, unless we're not talking about pvp anymore.


I think tier 3s really need friends. Tackle leaves all those fits with very low EHP, but just swap an invuln or LSE for a point from the brawlers and you are good to go :)

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2011-12-30 15:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Tak McMonagle wrote:
Roime wrote:
Onictus wrote:
- good stuff -.


- almost good fits -



You forgot the warp disruptors, unless we're not talking about pvp anymore.



Why would your bring ANY ship that goes 1600m/s with a 70km range into point range.....A blaster Talos maybe, but against anything near its speed they are going to set a tight orbit and chew it up.

Currently there isn't a point on my Tornado, if I need point I'll fly a Cane..or Drake, either or which is a better choice for that sort of role.

The T3s excel at anti-support and sniping tackle (I've lost inties that way already) 25km brawling is in no way their strength...with the exception of a shield Talos (yes I said that) that you can fly much like a Hurricane that just smashes.

They are interesting ships, as much for their weaknesses as their strengths.

Ninja edit:

Seriously the tier two ships are a MUCH better choice for anything that you must have a tackle on.