These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Rat aggression swaps in pvp situations.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2015-06-23 15:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Switch Savage
It's odd i have never really seen it as an issue and have always just planned accordingly depending on the site. If anything i feel it adds more fun to the hunt as most site runners are unlikely to offer any real fight. Regardless of rat aggro any smart PvE player is going to be difficult to catch (sitting off beacon, watching d-scan etc and generally paying attention) and those players require modified tactics, such as combat recons for initial point, log off traps etc. This is just one example where you must adapt to secure a kill, this is engaging and fun game play in which you devise ways to catch them.

I have listed a few cases below that in my opinion show why the current rat mechanics create good content.

Case 1: Me and a friend caught a 4 billion isk paladin in a besieged site not so long ago, him in a Svipul and me in a Deimos. The fight was stressful having to deal with the high dps rats, maintain point (as he went in and out of bastion) and deal with the paladins damage whilst we tag teamed to get more cap boosters. Had the rats entirely focused him it would have been a very boring and simple tank/spank.

Case 2: We caught a Tengu in a C3 who was tanking an absurd amount of our dps. We had not taken the required neuts to kill him and he very cleverly made the decision to trigger the next wave as he was unable to break us. The combined site/Tengu dps quickly became untankable for us and we had to warp out, whilst he continued to tank it just fine. In this situation he outplayed us and rightfully deserved to keep his ship.

Edit: People are out there Solo ganking PvE players as we speak even in deep Null sec. Certainly your engagement profile solo is not the same as what two players can achieve (Two blops BS taking out ratting carriers for instance) but many players adapted, some did not. Such is Eve.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#122 - 2015-06-23 15:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:
It's odd i have never really seen it as an issue and have always just planned accordingly depending on the site. If anything i feel it adds more fun to the hunt as most site runners are unlikely to offer any real fight. Regardless of rat aggro any smart PvE player is going to be difficult to catch (sitting off beacon, watching d-scan etc and generally paying attention) and those players require modified tactics, such as combat recons for initial point, log off traps etc.

you are absolutely right when you say regardless of rat aggro a smart PvE player is difficult to catch, what
I see as issue is that on top of all what you said, you have to deal with rats as well, rendering whole thing for solos
virtually impossible - basically neutering a whole class of hunters and their gameplay + removing huge chunk of risk from ratters.

This is what the thread is about. There is not much solo content for people seeking for PvP in 0.0. NPC AI change removed one of few huge available parts of it, which filled a lot of time gaps between the next roaming or gatecamps.


Switch Savage wrote:

Edit: People are out there Solo ganking PvE players as we speak even in deep Null sec. Certainly your engagement profile solo is not the same as what two players can achieve (Two blops BS taking out ratting carriers for instance) but many players adapted, some did not. Such is Eve.


same question goes out for you - just for interest - link me some of them.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2015-06-23 15:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Switch Savage
Robert Caldera wrote:
Switch Savage wrote:
It's odd i have never really seen it as an issue and have always just planned accordingly depending on the site. If anything i feel it adds more fun to the hunt as most site runners are unlikely to offer any real fight. Regardless of rat aggro any smart PvE player is going to be difficult to catch (sitting off beacon, watching d-scan etc and generally paying attention) and those players require modified tactics, such as combat recons for initial point, log off traps etc.

you are absolutely right when you say regardless of rat aggro a smart PvE player is difficult to catch, what
I see as issue is that on top of all what you said, you have to deal with rats as well, rendering whole thing for solos
virtually impossible - basically neutering a whole class of hunters and their gameplay + removing big chunk of risk from ratters.


I see no issue.

There are players out there catching ratters solo in all kinds of ships as we speak. A smart PvE player should have a solid defense if he chooses to make use of it (most do not). A player who wishes to hunt these types of players should be required to have as much of an intimate knowledge of the site as the PvEr himself (triggers/dps levels/site clear requirements). With this information you are able to either chase him out, kill him or finish the site which will make you some nice Isk. You also have the ability to setup a trap to catch him should you so choose.

Edit: Certainly can link some. Zappity (who posts his stories in CnP) has been out in Null sec recently and whilst he never claims to be an expert ratter hunter, he does just fine. https://zkillboard.com/character/92922536/

Some guys in Corp two manned a carrier the other day as well https://zkillboard.com/kill/47417233/
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#124 - 2015-06-23 15:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:

Edit: Certainly can link some. Zappity (who posts his stories in CnP) has been out in Null sec recently and whilst he never claims to be an expert ratter hunter, he does just fine. https://zkillboard.com/character/92922536/

this guy managed to down 1 (one) T1 fitted Gila in a site in the period if time I bothered to go back until march. All other type of kills were never questioned here, yes they certainly happen but are not in focus of this discussion. So maybe
there is misunderstanding about the exact topic, this thread was raised because its virtually impossible (yes, lucky shots happen rarely) to anyone solo to gank a ratter inside a complex or anomaly - not belt kills, not at gate, not at station - inside a complex,
where rats used to protect the ratter since retribution expansion of eve.

Switch Savage wrote:

Some guys in Corp two manned a carrier the other day as well https://zkillboard.com/kill/47417233/

same for teams of blops. no doubt, they can kill a lot, however outside of this threads scope.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2015-06-23 15:51:04 UTC
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47152961/ Gila
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47218770/ Gila
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47247764/ Ishtar
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47399652/ Ishtar
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47400027/ Gila

One? I merely use him as an example of someone who is dabbling in mission runner hunting and doing a fine job of it. I did not have to look past the first page.

At this point you are purposely ignoring the fact that people are out there getting excellent solo ratter kills in null sec and i feel i can prove this to you no further.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#126 - 2015-06-23 15:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47152961/ Gila
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47218770/ Gila
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47247764/ Ishtar
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47399652/ Ishtar
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47400027/ Gila

One? I merely use him as an example of someone who is dabbling in mission runner hunting and doing a fine job of it. I did not have to look past the first page.


yes, like I said.
first gila was WH kill, no idea where the kill happened, I dont know the ammunition on KM and these sites. Know too little about WH to judge this.

Second) Gila was the one I mentioned.

Third) ishtar with guristas torpedo, in a system known for belt ratting, so probably a belt kill.
Fourth) ishtar, belt kill.
Fifth) Gila, no NPC on KM at all.

Switch Savage wrote:
At this point you are purposely ignoring the fact that people are out there getting excellent solo ratter kills in null sec and i feel i can prove this to you no further.

seems like you are purposely ignoring the fact that this discussion is not about belt kills but about kills in 0.0 anomalies.
Why is it that hard to understand, I dont get it.

Stay on topic please.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2015-06-23 16:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Switch Savage
That was merely one person hunting in null sec who is active on the forums. Agreed not all of them were gated sites so apologies for that. That said it does not invalidate the fact you have many options to hunt such prey in gated plexes of which i have already named some methods that are perfectly valid solo.

Edit: Also i was mainly replying to the original post not the follow up discussion (where i missed the conversation turn to gated plexes.)
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#128 - 2015-06-23 16:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:
That was merely one person hunting in null sec who is active on the forums. Agreed not all of them were gated sites so apologies for that. That said it does not invalidate the fact you have many options to hunt such prey in gated plexes of which i have already named some methods that are perfectly valid solo.

if gated or not, doesnt matter. Primarily its about the amount of rats in there.
No idea what you mean with "some methodes that are perfectly valid solo", where did you name them?

Switch Savage wrote:
Edit: Also i was mainly replying to the original post not the follow up discussion, which was the main threads scope.


ok yes, me too confused this thread with the other one started by a different guy.
Lets agree, belt kills are no big deal since there are only little NPC which can barely harm you, assumed
you are in a half decent ship (T3D i.e.) - I never bothered about these, they are still fine.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#129 - 2015-06-23 16:14:55 UTC
That's why I didn't bother to link anything. No matter what is linked it will be discarded as either a fluke or assumed to be not applicable because "reasons".

Your claim that no one can solo hunt PvE pilots in deep null is wrong. People that take the environment into account still hunt just fine. They just don't set themselves up to fail and then wonder what went wrong.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#130 - 2015-06-23 16:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Mike Voidstar wrote:
That's why I didn't bother to link anything. No matter what is linked it will be discarded as either a fluke or assumed to be not applicable because "reasons".

you dont understand the reasons? I am argueing about not being able to hunt solo in anomalies, where 95% of all ratters rat,
which worked fine pre-Retribution but is now broken.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Your claim that no one can solo hunt PvE pilots in deep null is wrong. People that take the environment into account still hunt just fine. They just don't set themselves up to fail and then wonder what went wrong.

exactly the environment behaves wrong IMO, thats why I'm posting in these threads.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2015-06-23 16:32:34 UTC
The rats damage i class as a non issue which was the point of this thread but i will explain why.

As a solo hunter you should know the sites you are about to engage within. For example if a besieged site puts out too much damage for you to handle then wait until he has cleared most of the second wave before you engage. This holds true for all non gated sites including wormhole ones. I think we agree on this anyway and its integral knowledge a solo hunter should have, so lets move on to gated.

I agree gates make things more difficult. However an intelligent player utilising knowledge of the mission and D-Scanning for wrecks will be able to ascertain which pocket they are in and roughly how much dps remains on field. Plan accordingly.

This leaves you with the issue that an attentive pver will not be sitting on the beacon and will warp as soon as you enter.
Again i see no real issue with this and you are left with a few options.

1) Finish the site yourself if possible and earn some nice isk
2) Setup a trap for him via combat recon, cloaky, log off trap etc

Often if they were right at the end of the site this will get them rather mad. Mad enough sometimes to come and fight or if not you get some nice isk, win, win. Regardless what happens you have won and he has lost Isk and time.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#132 - 2015-06-23 16:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:
The rats damage i class as a non issue which was the point of this thread but i will explain why.

As a solo hunter you should know the sites you are about to engage within. For example if a besieged site puts out too much damage for you to handle then wait until he has cleared most of the second wave before you engage. This holds true for all non gated sites including wormhole ones. I think we agree on this anyway and its integral knowledge a solo hunter should have, so lets move on to gated.


As a solo hunter you should know that this is not viable, since they will warp out instantly as they see you in local chat.
so waiting out NPC dps is not an option, never was.

Switch Savage wrote:

I agree gates make things more difficult. However an intelligent player utilising knowledge of the mission and D-Scanning for wrecks will be able to ascertain which pocket they are in and roughly how much dps remains on field. Plan accordingly.

This leaves you with the issue that an attentive pver will not be sitting on the beacon and will warp as soon as you enter.
Again i see no real issue with this and you are left with a few options.

1) Finish the site yourself if possible and earn some nice isk
2) Setup a trap for him via combat recon, cloaky, log off trap etc

Often if they were right at the end of the site this will get them rather mad. Mad enough sometimes to come and fight or if not you get some nice isk, win, win. Regardless what happens you have won and he has lost Isk and time.

1) what if I'm not willing/likely not capable of finishing the site? irrelevant option
2) trap is all right and known approach, but the thread is not about tactics but about NPC spoiling the kill. You should know that login traps dont work in gated plexes, you didnt? You will always land on entry gate, so pretty much you start again where your last attempt to catch him failed.

I dont even know why this discussion derailed that much and is now about tactics, as it was about issue of NPC switching targets originally. Normally, you dont have much of a choice when you decloak and point your target, you're doing it as soon as you can at first chance if you want that kill at all, waiting and slowboating around "managing the DPS" is a totally naive idea.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-06-23 17:09:49 UTC
Well if them warping out when they see you in local is your issue, then you have no need to complain about rats switching aggro as you never get that far. If they do not then my points still stand.

If you are unwilling/unable to finish the site then that is your loss and their gain. When i use log off traps i time it so he is warping back to the initial gate when i log back on. You either point him outside with the rats being a non issue or follow him to the first room and tank them and him in a suitable ship.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#134 - 2015-06-23 17:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:
Well if them warping out when they see you in local is your issue, then you have no need to complain about rats switching aggro as you never get that far. If they do not then my points still stand.

my point is that you have no option of waiting NPC dps to drop, since you usually have to point him at first chance (when NPC become an issue) - otherwise he'll just gtfo. I dont understand your argument.

Switch Savage wrote:
If you are unwilling/unable to finish the site then that is your loss and their gain.

its not my loss because I'm not interested in finishing the site nor ISK from it, when I'm hunting for kills. His gain, maybe, yes

Switch Savage wrote:
When i use log off traps i time it so he is warping back to the initial gate when i log back on. You either point him outside with the rats being a non issue or follow him to the first room and tank them and him in a suitable ship.

yet again, login/logoff traps and your chance to grab him that way arent the topic here, why do you keep coming back at that??
If I had the luck of landing together with him at entry gate, good for me and worked as usual - no difference to before AI change.
If I'm not that lucky and have to do it in next room full of NPC, the discussed AI issue gets relevant again.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2015-06-23 17:31:20 UTC
If you are hunting these players then ensure you bring a suitable ship for the job and suitable tactics to catch him, that is my point. Them warping out as you enter local and paying attention to D-Scan is a separate issue as mentioned. If they are not paying attention you have time to let the dps drop if you are not in a suitable ship and can plan your attack accordingly.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#136 - 2015-06-23 17:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Switch Savage wrote:
If you are hunting these players then ensure you bring a suitable ship for the job

"suitable ship" has been discussed here for the last 5-6 pages.
The requirements for "suitable ship" have been raised far beyond the point where hunting in sites would be still viable in said regions. Thats why there is a sharp decline of such kills compared to Pre-Retribution levels, basically a dead thing. People dont do it anymore in meaningful extent.

Switch Savage wrote:

and suitable tactics to catch him, that is my point. Them warping out as you enter local and paying attention to D-Scan is a separate issue as mentioned. If they are not paying attention you have time to let the dps drop if you are not in a suitable ship and can plan your attack accordingly.

tactics didnt change. You grab them as soon as you can, since you cant know what moment they realize a neutral/hostile in local and warp out. You have to be lucky to see them on grid at all before they warp.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#137 - 2015-06-23 18:48:49 UTC
There he goes again. Fingers in ears, yelling about how it's not fair things don't work they way they used to.

See, you can't reason with him on this. No matter how many times you point out to him that he can still hunt ratters in deep null by adjusting his tactics, he will just circle right back around to wanting the AI re-stupefied so that he can get his free kills at no risk to himself.

To him, the discussion begins and ends with he can't do the exact same thing in the exact same way it was done 2 years ago when it was hilariously broken. He isn't here to discuss the situation, he is here to whine about it.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-06-23 20:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Switch Savage wrote:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47152961/ Gila
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47218770/ Gila
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47247764/ Ishtar
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47399652/ Ishtar
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47400027/ Gila

One? I merely use him as an example of someone who is dabbling in mission runner hunting and doing a fine job of it. I did not have to look past the first page.

At this point you are purposely ignoring the fact that people are out there getting excellent solo ratter kills in null sec and i feel i can prove this to you no further.


Switch, you know those kills mean noting to the inherent problem right? Killing a cruiser in a 10mn t3d or in a stratios is totally besides the point, https://zkillboard.com/kill/46320810/ stuff like that looks nice but it in itself shows the problem, i tried to kill him once and had to warp out in almost 0 hull due to the rats smoking me up, had to just gamble the second tme and landed just right.

If you arent in a ship that can just plain ignore the rats (i.e a 10mn t3d in a regular site or something bigger) the rats give absurd protection to the pver, a advantage that makes no sense for them to have. Who cares about 1 or 2 belt rats but if i try to fight a ship which is fit to a passive buffer tank of over 1k dps tanked to tank a super neut and web heavy site in anything bar a blob i can screw myself.

Or take your earlier example, a pveer that is fairlfit for the content he is doing by totally overtanking beeing able to survive his total and utter fuckup (getting tackled) just by spawning more adds and due to add mechanics those swapping to you instead of their real enemy (him), is that really good gameplay for you?

And if you take it down a bit, a dual rep vengeance doings a 2/10, a enyo tackles it, veng spaws 50 new adds - new adds all shoot the enyo. Good gameplay or not?


If you are doing a site, spawn adds by shooting triggers you should by all means be forced to tank them unless someone else does take aggro by shooting them and not the target they are shooting.





Also, while you may have a point in lowsec (even though i totally disagree that you should have to snipe a pveer just as he finishes a room and enters the next pocket) in many parts of nullsec you cant just wait till he drops the site, he will eventually notice you in local or on dscan and run away.



To illustrate, just take my killmail and check the mordus bs' kill history, youll see that on the frist page all its kills got blobbed or a ship with absurdly high tanking potential (with probably links) was the killer, https://zkillboard.com/kill/47257842/ or take that one as a example of why this is terrible gameplay, a ranis trying to solo a tengu hard enough. A ranis trying to solo a tengu in a situation where the tengu is actviely fighting something else ough to make it easer, not mean the soemthing else swaps and instapops the ranis with perfect damage application.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2015-06-24 00:33:02 UTC
I generally just disagree with the concept that you should get a free ride from the rats for no real reason. I am of the opinion that if you wish to enter the site and receive a kill mail you should have to deal with the same environmental concerns that the pver himself is facing (as has been said by Mike). Mainly I feel that because the kill you are after is often proportional similar to the difficulty of the site you are attempting to gank inside.

Certainly it would be unjust if the entire room aggro switched to you and my understanding of rat aggro mechanics is far from perfect. However from what experience I do have they seem to share the love equally outside of their hatred for ECM. Imagine being able to waltz into capital escalations and just have your way with the site runners with impunity (other than them fighting back).

Regarding the Tengu example I gave there is numerous things we could have done to secure the kill that we neglected. For example had we researched the site he was, noted the triggers and assessed the wave he was on we could have waited for a more opportune time to strike. I appreciate this is something that is not entirely possible in Null sec due to local, but if they are switched on you will not catch them anyway as Robert mentioned.

Look at Low sec DEDs. A competent and aware PvEr is almost impossible to catch there even with combat recons/cloaks and use of more unscrupulous tactics. This is mainly why I choose to finish sites I chase people out of and earn easy ISK as well as deny them the loot. I have had many good kills from people coming back with more capable combat ships as a result. At least in Null sec you have the ability throw up bubbles on warp paths to stations or POS towers (admittedly this is not a solo endeavor) if they get predictable and lax. One could argue that a PvEr with a brain is a far greater threat (at denying you your kill) than the rats themselves could ever be.

Your argument seems to boil down to the fact that if they are dumb enough to be pointed then you deserve the kill. I partially agree with this however i do find it engaging game play when forced to have intimate knowledge of the PvE site i wish stalk my prey in.

Call me a masochist if you will but It adds variety to the hunt. Anyway that is my thoughts on the matter I'm sure i'll catch you on mumble sometime and perhaps we can debate a bit further.

Happy hunting dude o7.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2015-06-24 01:11:44 UTC
My point is that if i point them they should be forced to 1v1 me, and it should not me being forced to 1v1 him and also tank the entire site (cause everything swaps). That isnt as big an issue with stuff like tanky cruisers or bs cause tanking the site isnt that hard usually but for ships whos primary defence isnt paper tank and/or ehp but getting under guns and signature and mobility its almost impossible.

If i see a tengu in a 5/10 i usually dont care one bit about the site (bar a select few ones) cause ill be in a ship perfectly fine of handling the site, its annoying but no real problem.


if i see a rupture doing one of the harder gateless sites you can find without a prober and i tackle it in a dual prop ranis with a nos, i get under his guns and kill his drones, by all means its a kill i deserve - but the rats swap instantly and the ranis instantly explodes because while the 250dps or wouldnt bother a bs or t3 or a faction cruiser they are deadly to frigates who use the aforementioned different means of tank.


Rat mechanics are extremly punishing to frigates and non t3 dessies, even to cheap cruisers because some of the rats dont care about small signature and/or high ab speeds. A ship like the garmur whos entire defence system is its range and speed is without any chance vs a clone soldier as that has perfect application and dps.

A ranis which relies on its ab and its speed, well to bad 90% webbing rats or perfet application doesnt care.



And to bring a killmail from the opening post, if 2 pvpers fight in equal ships, the one that has been killing the rats wins due to the rats switching off instantly resulting in garbage like this: https://zkillboard.com/kill/46614236/ .