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Dev blog: Feedback on the new Overview Brackets

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John Lawyer
Doomheim
#241 - 2015-06-21 23:51:57 UTC
Idea:
If there is urgent need for icon's change - make UI as much customizable as possible [blinks].

This is pure win-win solution, 'cause you will cover everyone's needs!

For now, I am sadly noticing decreasing interess to play EVE (being in FW long time).
Now I am mostly docked - restarting inventions and reading forums.
Elmis
The ill-advised
Hermit Collective
#242 - 2015-06-22 00:59:45 UTC
I run EVE at 100% on a 28" 4K Monitor.

I personally don't mind the new icons, although admit I find the flood of additional information on the screen can get confusing.

I would prefer there be more contrast in the colour between NPC and Player objects.

I wouldn't mind the option to turn off some or all of the detail. When running sites or missions you often just don't need that much information.

My main concern might just relate to the resolution I run my client in, but I can now find it difficult to see in the overview what is locked and what isn't.
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#243 - 2015-06-22 03:56:04 UTC
wow number of active players dropping drastically
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Soon we'll hit 5k players..
Cool
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#244 - 2015-06-22 06:36:31 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
wow number of active players dropping drastically
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Soon we'll hit 5k players..
Cool


That's a different thread, literally. EVE's health is not in a place where those who love it can rejoice.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Cpt Dawg
i420 Inc
#245 - 2015-06-22 08:06:35 UTC
Those that managed to adapt quickly in the early days of the great Iconocalypse of 2015 certainly profited handsomely from the confusion it sowed.

But in New Eden space is merciless, and change is ever-present.

- CCP Surge

I wish I had a business that is able to tell its cust base to go funk yourself.

TO SURGE -----------> I'm cancelling 2 of my 3 accounts all thanks to you .... I wonder who much money CCP will lose over this, hopefully its a lot and you will loss your job. I was floored to read your POS response. WTF does "managed" mean you SOB. FU and your business philosophy. Oh it means Newbie pilots that did not use the old system much? Yes I have bought new games and Eve is no longer 1st choice. I can Thank you for braking my addiction to this game and making it unplayable now specially with jump fatigue also.

CSM ? what a joke you all are in this matter .... CSM should be disband it serves no purpose or at least those on it do nothing of consequence.

..l.. FU CCP
John Lawyer
Doomheim
#246 - 2015-06-22 08:41:49 UTC  |  Edited by: John Lawyer
Btw, someone spoke about that people who dont like new icons are few, but here is the poll from russian eve-forum about new patch which tells different (http://forum.eve-ru.com/index.php?showtopic=113538)

In short (from top to bottom):
1&2 lines - pro (~23% combined)
3 line - neutral (~8%)
4&5 lines - contra (~69%)

To completely prevent any speculations, it is need to make a poll here, of course.

UPD: line number corrected
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#247 - 2015-06-22 09:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
John Lawyer wrote:
Btw, someone spoke about that people who dont like new icons are few, but here is the poll from russian eve-forum about new patch which tells different (http://forum.eve-ru.com/index.php?showtopic=113538)

In short (from top to bottom):
1&2 lines - pro (~23% combined)
3 line - neutral (~8%)
3&4 lines - contra (~69%)

To completely prevent any speculations, it is need to make a poll here, of course.


No one said that unsatisfied players were a few.
I said, since this is me you are talking about, that this particular poll, in a particular forum, in which a particular amount of this forum subscribers participated, among the whole russian-speaking community, among the whole Eve Online community is NOT representativ of the whole Eve Online player base AT ALL.

That is only 739 people in a particular community.
In a correct "survey" which is generally made among 1 000 people you would've ask people whith different profile. French, Russians, Aussies, Germans, Americans, PvEers, PvPers, WHers, Industrials, Traders, Mission runners, Old, youg, Veterans, New players, forum readers, not forum readers, etc, etc, etc, etc... to have a really more accurate result.

Even if you make a poll here, you couldn't tell the whole Eve Online player feelings, because only a little number of Eve players read those forums.
Make it in-game, you might have a chance and a better accurate number to deal with.
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
Red Serpent Alliance
#248 - 2015-06-22 10:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Orm Magnustat
Cleanse Serce wrote:


No one said that unsatisfied players were a few.
....blabla.........
NOT representativ of the whole Eve Online player base AT ALL.

That is only 739 people in a particular community.
In a correct "survey" which is generally made among 1 000 people you would've ask people whith different .....blabla..........
you couldn't tell the whole Eve Online player feelings ....blabla.....


omg, please just shut up or take some statistics classes Ugh

1. you dont always need "representative" polls to get first ideas for current trends .... if actually someplace 700 people of a niche game like Eve raise their voices only a complete moron wouldnt take that as a strong hint for a trend.

2. unlike of what you claim, surveys are NOT "generally made among 1000 people" - the numbers depend on the population you want to talk about and the questions you want to look into. If you take a look at common market research you´ll find studies that claim to be representative that consist of 1000 - 2000 people that draw conclusions about a population of several tens of millions.

If some research institute or company could have answers from 700 people from a population less than 200.000 they would actually lick their fingers for such data.

3. a concept like " whole Eve Online player feelings" doesnt exist in reality (but it's best troll tradition to ask for something non-existant lol) - at best you can find trends for certain subgroups in a diverse game like this.

And if suddenly a "subgroup" of 700 voices pops up in your little niche game, while at the same time you loose another 10% of your gametraffic ........ well, how braindead can a company become before it goes **** up?
Obidiah Kane
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#249 - 2015-06-22 10:24:15 UTC
Can't imagine going back to a bunch of ambiguously sized brackets - bar a few minor quibbles I actually can't find any logical reason to prefer the previous option over this, the amount of data gleaned on a less than a second glance at the overview has increased ten fold...for instance; landing in a NPC gatecamp - instant assessment, jump or no jump. Rather having to remember what class based on name or thickness of cross.

They are brilliant, logical with a solid set of principles - keep looking to improve but consider it a win.
Eli Strange
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2015-06-22 10:58:26 UTC
I love the icons. Thank you.
Ahed Sten
#251 - 2015-06-22 11:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahed Sten
Obidiah Kane wrote:
For instance; landing in a NPC gatecamp - instant assessment, jump or no jump. Rather having to remember what class based on name or thickness of cross.


Any decent PVP'er can recognize ship class and type based on name alone. We don't need differen't visual icons to know simple stuff like a Harbinger is a BC and an Apocalypse is a BS.

Maybe if the icons distinguished between T1/T2/T3 then we'd be getting somewhere, but since there is visibly no difference between say, a Myrmidon and Eos, The whole system is pointless and brings nothing new to the table.

From the perspective of a PVP'er, [At best] the new icons add no value whatsoever and [At worst] they're an ugly cluttered mess.

The only lives that have been improved by this patch were those of the PVE'ers. Yes, it's nice to be able to distinguish between mission frigs and dessies now but that's as far it goes for the functionality of these icons, and it could easily have been achieved with the old icon system.

...

I've said it before and I know it will never happen, but I'd be happy if CCP simplified things even more than they were before the patch.

Keep the square brackets for all ships
Upside down triangle for wrecks
A simple small dot for drones
Etc...

Less is more.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#252 - 2015-06-22 11:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
John Lawyer wrote:
Btw, someone spoke about that people who dont like new icons are few, but here is the poll from russian eve-forum about new patch which tells different (http://forum.eve-ru.com/index.php?showtopic=113538)

In short (from top to bottom):
1&2 lines - pro (~23% combined)
3 line - neutral (~8%)
4&5 lines - contra (~69%)

To completely prevent any speculations, it is need to make a poll here, of course.


I can read Russian, and those reported poll numbers are accurate. The [48.31%] choice has a wishful thinking request to bring the old overview icons back as a valid option, it is also the most strongly-worded, roughly translated as "Didn't like it at all", while the one above is "Didn't like it". Smile

Fifty six pages already in that thread alone, mind you.

Phoebe jump changes affected a very bloated minority, who had been choking healthy small-er engagements in EVE, which resulted in a lot of poasting by the same people with many, many cyno alts, plus vested interests posting CTAs by alliances & coalitions.

The topic at hand, however, affects everyone.

PAPULA wrote:
wow number of active players dropping drastically
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility


It was 33k this Sunday and 28k on Friday.

It is Summer, though the issue at hand amplifies the effect considerably.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#253 - 2015-06-22 12:26:21 UTC
GankYou wrote:
It was 33k this Sunday and 28k on Friday.

That's very low, normally it was at least 54k during friday or sunday.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#254 - 2015-06-22 12:28:23 UTC
The new normal is 40k. Smile

We hit 40k on May 2nd after a major patch on the 28th of April, but I see your point.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#255 - 2015-06-22 13:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
Orm Magnustat wrote:

omg, please just shut up or take some statistics classes Ugh

1. you dont always need "representative" polls to get first ideas for current trends .... if actually someplace 700 people of a niche game like Eve raise their voices only a complete moron wouldnt take that as a strong hint for a trend.

2. unlike of what you claim, surveys are NOT "generally made among 1000 people" - the numbers depend on the population you want to talk about and the questions you want to look into. If you take a look at common market research you´ll find studies that claim to be representative that consist of 1000 - 2000 people that draw conclusions about a population of several tens of millions.

If some research institute or company could have answers from 700 people from a population less than 200.000 they would actually lick their fingers for such data.

3. a concept like " whole Eve Online player feelings" doesnt exist in reality (but it's best troll tradition to ask for something non-existant lol) - at best you can find trends for certain subgroups in a diverse game like this.

And if suddenly a "subgroup" of 700 voices pops up in your little niche game, while at the same time you loose another 10% of your gametraffic ........ well, how braindead can a company become before it goes **** up?
I will shut up on that for now on, cause you seem to not understand what i'm saying.
If you really think that those 700 players in a specific forum among a given community, among another given community is representativ, i can't argue more.

What is the question of this poll ?
Obidiah Kane
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
#256 - 2015-06-22 14:00:19 UTC
Ahed Sten wrote:
Obidiah Kane wrote:
For instance; landing in a NPC gatecamp - instant assessment, jump or no jump. Rather having to remember what class based on name or thickness of cross.


Any decent PVP'er can recognize ship class and type based on name alone. We don't need differen't visual icons to know simple stuff like a Harbinger is a BC and an Apocalypse is a BS.

Maybe if the icons distinguished between T1/T2/T3 then we'd be getting somewhere, but since there is visibly no difference between say, a Myrmidon and Eos, The whole system is pointless and brings nothing new to the table.

From the perspective of a PVP'er, [At best] the new icons add no value whatsoever and [At worst] they're an ugly cluttered mess.

The only lives that have been improved by this patch were those of the PVE'ers. Yes, it's nice to be able to distinguish between mission frigs and dessies now but that's as far it goes for the functionality of these icons, and it could easily have been achieved with the old icon system.

...

I've said it before and I know it will never happen, but I'd be happy if CCP simplified things even more than they were before the patch.

Keep the square brackets for all ships
Upside down triangle for wrecks
A simple small dot for drones
Etc...

Less is more.


All I do is PVP, occasionally shooting suitable gate rats while roaming. I am not going to claim to be a decent PVP'er, indecent maybe - I am a pirate after all...or actually all that technically decent, truth be told; I solo in frigs, in losec (the big fleet stuff looks dull and attrition-al to me) - but I've been playing on and off since 08 and if you are telling me you can tell a tech 1/2 difference in the spacing of the old school brackets, within the same class of ship, at a glance...well, I have to say I am amazed! Thats some next level processing right there! I was sorting by the 'type' column back then (which is untouched), for those types of details - exactly as I am now - and its still taking the same amount of time.

My 'at-a-glance' understanding/ identifying of what is on grid has sped up no end though.
Ahed Sten
#257 - 2015-06-22 15:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ahed Sten
Obidiah Kane wrote:
Ahed Sten wrote:
Obidiah Kane wrote:
For instance; landing in a NPC gatecamp - instant assessment, jump or no jump. Rather having to remember what class based on name or thickness of cross.


Any decent PVP'er can recognize ship class and type based on name alone. We don't need differen't visual icons to know simple stuff like a Harbinger is a BC and an Apocalypse is a BS.

Maybe if the icons distinguished between T1/T2/T3 then we'd be getting somewhere, but since there is visibly no difference between say, a Myrmidon and Eos, The whole system is pointless and brings nothing new to the table.

From the perspective of a PVP'er, [At best] the new icons add no value whatsoever and [At worst] they're an ugly cluttered mess.

The only lives that have been improved by this patch were those of the PVE'ers. Yes, it's nice to be able to distinguish between mission frigs and dessies now but that's as far it goes for the functionality of these icons, and it could easily have been achieved with the old icon system.

...

I've said it before and I know it will never happen, but I'd be happy if CCP simplified things even more than they were before the patch.

Keep the square brackets for all ships
Upside down triangle for wrecks
A simple small dot for drones
Etc...

Less is more.


All I do is PVP, occasionally shooting suitable gate rats while roaming. I am not going to claim to be a decent PVP'er, indecent maybe - I am a pirate after all...or actually all that technically decent, truth be told; I solo in frigs, in losec (the big fleet stuff looks dull and attrition-al to me) - but I've been playing on and off since 08 and if you are telling me you can tell a tech 1/2 difference in the spacing of the old school brackets, within the same class of ship, at a glance...well, I have to say I am amazed! Thats some next level processing right there! I was sorting by the 'type' column back then (which is untouched), for those types of details - exactly as I am now - and its still taking the same amount of time.

My 'at-a-glance' understanding/ identifying of what is on grid has sped up no end though.


If the new set works better for you then that's great, I won't argue as your preferences are your own. However, they do not work better for me and many, many others I have spoken to.

To answer your question, yes I can, within the span of a second or two, (and even that's considered slow,) look at the name of a ship and tell you what class and tech level it is. This is nothing new. Every experienced player I know can do this, and it is really easy in LS with the frigate heavy meta where you end up seeing the same things over and over again. The new overview has not sped up the recognition process for me at all, and if anything has only slowed it down with what I consider to be annoying clutter.

Situation 1 [Old set of icons]
You see a small box with the name "Vengeance"
Thought process: "Hurr durr a Destroyer or Frigate named 'Vengeance'. I wonder which one.

Situation 2 [New set of icons]
You see a frigate icon with the name "Vengeance".
Thought process: It's obviously a frigate but I already knew that because that's easy.

If your KB is an accurate indication of your actual pvp experience, then with respect, my earlier comment of "Anyone who is decently experienced only needs the name" still stands.

I suggest creating some cue cards with the name of the ship on one side and the ship class on the other, and reviewing them during DT between roams, because establishing the ship class really is the easiest part of the entire thing...
SamuraiJack
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#258 - 2015-06-22 15:55:08 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
GankYou wrote:
It was 33k this Sunday and 28k on Friday.

That's very low, normally it was at least 54k during friday or sunday.



It hasnt been 50k since 2014.

Its at most 30k most weekends since about april this year and thats only for a few hours.

SJ's Chronicles - http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2103579/CLS-SamuraiJack
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#259 - 2015-06-22 18:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
wow number of active players dropping drastically
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Soon we'll hit 5k players..
Cool


That's a different thread, literally. EVE's health is not in a place where those who love it can rejoice.


If you believe those charts (and I do), eve continuously increased in numbers until about 2011. Since 2011, its been a slow burn with players bleeding away. There was a spike of interest in 2013 or so, but since then the loss in players appear to be accelerating, with our numbers down to about 2008 levels. It has to be asked, since 2011, what is it that has caused the players to leave. IMO, its plain that CCP lost its way and have been steadily chipping away at what made eve great and/or unique, by trying to make the game more new user friendly and casual. Unfortunately "quality of life improvements" have frequently hurt more then they have helped. The icons are a prime example. While maybe well intentioned, the icons are just another straw on the camels back, pushing folk to leave the game. Maybe there is no great exodus, but all the dribs and drabs have added up with CCP seemingly unable to come to grips with how to stop the tide. Having invested a fair amount of time in the game, its kind sad seeing it bleed from all the cuts.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#260 - 2015-06-22 18:11:23 UTC
SamuraiJack wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
GankYou wrote:
It was 33k this Sunday and 28k on Friday.

That's very low, normally it was at least 54k during friday or sunday.



It hasnt been 50k since 2014.

Its at most 30k most weekends since about april this year and thats only for a few hours.



For me when I log in (USA prime time), this whole last week has been 18-19k with one day (Sat) spike into the low 20s. Didnt used to be like that. Yet more and more, I talk to folk and if its not jump fat that's keeping them logged out, its icons or something else that CCP recently boloxed up.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.