These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Textures, Shaders, and Dirt, Oh My!

First post First post
Author
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#201 - 2015-05-31 17:16:02 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Ccp says dont worry guys its not a big problem because its only a small number of systems that are in fact too bright.

I did not say that. It's an issue, and it's an issue for a lot of players, since it affects high-traffic systems. It's an issue I've brought to the team in the past.

The reason that I pointed out that it affects a handful of regions is that it was raised in this thread in reference to the effect on ship lighting, so we can't rely on a bright sky box to fill contrasty shadows. It wasn't to minimize the problem that it's annoying in certain regions.

Edit: When I have brought this issue to the team in the past, I did so informally, which may not have been the most effective choice. I'll follow up again this week.

Thank you, this is an issue worthy of resolution time. Particuarly if the tactical overview is enabled. Possibly that can be looked at as a seperate as well as a contributory element.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#202 - 2015-05-31 17:24:52 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Ccp says dont worry guys its not a big problem because its only a small number of systems that are in fact too bright.

I did not say that. It's an issue, and it's an issue for a lot of players, since it affects high-traffic systems. It's an issue I've brought to the team in the past.

The reason that I pointed out that it affects a handful of regions is that it was raised in this thread in reference to the effect on ship lighting, so we can't rely on a bright sky box to fill contrasty shadows. It wasn't to minimize the problem that it's annoying in certain regions.

Edit: When I have brought this issue to the team in the past, I did so informally, which may not have been the most effective choice. I'll follow up again this week.

I thought there was a plan in place to enable turning letters/ icons black in to bright situations. One of the reasons the last text change happened was so this would be a less cost intensive action for the client. The client was changed to having dark boxes behind some text instances which helps for some things but not others.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#203 - 2015-06-02 17:53:40 UTC
I think you overdid the brillo treatment.

Thukker Vargur

Kaalakiota Golem

Which I'm thankful for even being a thing. I just. Miss my shiny Kaalakiota.
Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#204 - 2015-06-03 22:51:21 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I think you overdid the brillo treatment.


Haha! The Golem looks like it has been drifting in space for centuries now. Derelict Ships Online.
Petra Hakaari
Stalking Wolfpack
#205 - 2015-06-04 14:47:08 UTC
Great job, im liking it very much.

Sanshas have the oily glow back again ! \o/

Because tities .

CaptMalReynolds
The Hynerian Empire
#206 - 2015-06-06 20:19:12 UTC
First of all I was like what? Dirt in space? These ships aren't landing on the planets, where are they going to be getting so dirty?

That being said I've never really liked the shader system everything went bland and washed out and some ship colors got lost altogether. This is a welcome refreshment and gives the ships a more realistic look. I would like to think that you could adjust the dirt on your ship though. As a shiny new ship in the hangar is like a Christmas present under the tree. I like the idea of wash stations or the time based idea of being dirtier the longer your docked or possibly the opposite- the more time a ship has out in space.

However I agree that considerations with not making this too graphic's intensive need to be looked at. Especially in conjunction with the new implementation of new ship skins which I like, but am worried the new graphics will spoil playability. I already feel like the new map has ruined it's playability vs. graphic balance.

Great job though definitely an improvement on what we have currently as long as balance is struck and we all don't feel like we're flying in garbage bin by the end of the process.
Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2015-06-07 05:11:15 UTC
It is miraculous how much less I care about this now that I've seen the new icons.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2015-06-08 03:40:33 UTC
Keneb Banner wrote:
Great work, the new system along with the new maps looks awesome :)

A problem though, I got an error trying to import the 3 new .dds maps into photoshop to work them out, even though the old .dds (ap, n, and pgr) import without a flaw, did you change something in the .dds format ?


They sure did.

I opened those files with a hex editor and they show up empty of any content, just a bunch of zeros. dds files are raster packages and are notorious for having a wide variety of headers that can frustrate opening them, but I have never hacked one and found zero data before.

It is unlikely that CCP put zero based dds files in their models to mess with folks, so my guess is that triexporter is hitting a security wall when it saves the dds file out.

Alternatively, it may be that the dds files are now dynamic place holders, and that the game now asks for the texture details as required. This would make sense according to the new system of skins on demand: when you choose a skin the game now loads new textures onto your ship.

In any case, PBR (physical based rendering) creates all sorts of new challenges to modelling. The biggest is the lack of currently available shaders that implement PBR. So, even if we could obtain and open the texture files for the various skins (maybe we can? Darwin, hello?), you still have the challenge of using the new texture maps properly, according to the rapidly evolving black arts of PBR.

My current thinking is that CCP do not particularly wish to share their texture maps, and that is fine. Artists work pretty hard on those patterns and textures, I can see why they would get all proprietary about them.

We can still make our own texture maps and experiment with PBR using whatever shaders we think work with PBR. Or we can make our own specular based maps and go back to the old way of making textures for models.

It really isn't that much work to create your own texture maps, especially once you break out you UV map. Roughness and dirt are just binary black and white shader values, and how the values are spread across the hull shape is pretty simple to approximate. The point is, in the time I have spent wondering "what CCP are doing in there", I could have painted six different texture maps on my tristan.

Further, CCP have changed the way they are going about PBR within 6 months of changing to PBR. This is a rapidly evolving scene, and CCP are probably still feeling there way into PBR. From what I have read, there is no "correct way" to impliment PBR, in is just a general theory of texturing that can be pursued many different ways.

I suspect the CCP team are hesitant to share their methods until they have explored all the possibilities, and so for the moment I think player modellers should go with the flow, and experiment with PBR ourselves, with our own texture maps.

I can design a better tristan skin than CCP, anyways. To those guys, it is just another ship. Those guys don't understand what this ship means to the militia who maintain common decency and martial discipline in the moral cesspool of new Eden.
Ben Zaye
Harakiri Cleaning services
#209 - 2015-06-11 21:38:32 UTC
Note : Wear, dust, scratches must be the result of actions made by the player and not a skin!

When a player buys a ship, it should be look new!

So, for the Golem and his new skins we need the same level of detail and quality that the Cerberus for basic skin and Rook for Kaalakiota skin .

Did we can expect a correction soon for the 2 Golem skin (basic skin and Kaalakiota) ?
Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2015-06-12 02:25:39 UTC
Ben Zaye wrote:

When a player buys a ship, it should be look new!


The notion is even funnier if you consider building the ship yourself.
Apparently as I roll it off my production line, I make sure to "distress" it like a designer pair of jeans.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#211 - 2015-06-12 15:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
Keneb Banner wrote:
Great work, the new system along with the new maps looks awesome :)

A problem though, I got an error trying to import the 3 new .dds maps into photoshop to work them out, even though the old .dds (ap, n, and pgr) import without a flaw, did you change something in the .dds format ?

They sure did.

I opened those files with a hex editor and they show up empty of any content, just a bunch of zeros.

We haven't made any significant change to our .dds settings or compression, though how we pack channels into our .dds files has changed. I also haven't heard of any attempts to deliberately obfuscate the data we're delivering with the client, though I'd expect that the Download On Demand shared resource cache might be harder to navigate than our previous structures. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty reading the files you've tried to open.

You're right that we've had to work our way up a learning curve with PBR, both technically and among our artists, and that is why we undertook a second complete pass on our ships -- because after releasing PBR the first time, we realized that with some changes and adjustments to our processes, we could deliver a much nicer look.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Valterra Craven
#212 - 2015-06-12 15:39:47 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:


I opened those files with a hex editor and they show up empty of any content, just a bunch of zeros.
We haven't made any significant change to our .dds settings or compression, though how we pack channels into our .dds files has changed. I also haven't heard of any attempts to deliberately obfuscate the data we're delivering with the client, though I'd expect that the Download On Demand shared resource cache might be harder to navigate than our previous structures. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty reading the files you've tried to open.

You're right that we've had to work our way up a learning curve with PBR, both technically and among our artists, and that is why we undertook a second complete pass on our ships -- because after releasing PBR the first time, we realized that with some changes and adjustments to our processes, we could deliver a much nicer look.


I don't care how many passes you guys make. Ever since you introduced PBR ships look like ****. Why? Jaggies EVERYWHERE.

Ship is sitting still and not moving in a hanger? Jaggies! They are so bad it looks like **** is actually moving on the ship!
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#213 - 2015-06-12 15:48:01 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I don't care how many passes you guys make. Ever since you introduced PBR ships look like ****. Why? Jaggies EVERYWHERE.

We have some upcoming work that may help with this. Its ETA is still up in the air.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2015-06-13 01:03:40 UTC
I'm impressed that you all (CCP art folks) decided to go with PBR when you did. Pretty gutsy move into new tech. A lot of work, too.

For the moaners, what this means is that the CCP art department are equipping themselves with the tools and skills to make the best possible graphics in the years to come.

Everytime artists, anywhere is the industry, inovate more effective techniques, these will be represented by new shader pug ins and CCP will be able to take advantage straight away. As graphics hardware is optimized for such techniques, Eve will run better, and look better.

It is great news for the future of the game.

Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2015-06-13 01:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pestilen Ratte
CCP Darwin wrote:

We haven't made any significant change to our .dds settings or compression, though how we pack channels into our .dds files has changed. I also haven't heard of any attempts to deliberately obfuscate the data we're delivering with the client, though I'd expect that the Download On Demand shared resource cache might be harder to navigate than our previous structures. I'm not sure why you're having difficulty reading the files you've tried to open.


Ok, thanks for that. I've worked out what is going on.

If you are having problems loading the new texture files, the reason is that the new download on demand system only downloads texture files as you, ahem, demand them.

So this means that you need to log on to eve and load the ship in your screen. You can do this by getting into it, or loading it into the ship viewing window, ISIS. Once you have done that, the texture files are downloaded to your Eve folder. If you go get the dds files, they will be there.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#216 - 2015-06-13 02:20:44 UTC
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
If you are having problems loading the new texture files, the reason is that the new download on demand system only downloads texture files as you, ahem, demand them.

Also, remember that you can choose (in the launcher settings) to download all assets.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Celly S
Hero Kings
#217 - 2015-06-13 11:57:46 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Pestilen Ratte wrote:
If you are having problems loading the new texture files, the reason is that the new download on demand system only downloads texture files as you, ahem, demand them.

Also, remember that you can choose (in the launcher settings) to download all assets.



^^THIS^^

Its how mine is setup

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#218 - 2015-06-20 08:00:42 UTC
Yes, my race is finally getting an update! The Minmatar ships have always looked like they should be up on blocks somewhere in an Alabama field. The concepts for the Thrasher look awesome and I like the look of the Stilleto. Keep it up!
Anne Coulter
Doomheim
#219 - 2015-06-23 20:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anne Coulter
Hi there. I don't usually post in forums, But over the years I've been reading these updates. Please don't take this the wrong way CPP. It's not my intention to upset anyone here, especially the EvE fans, but as a game artist, modeler and graphic designer for 20 years I have to admit. The ships look fine as they are. Being involved in the development of mmorpg's in my early 20's myself with Endless Ages and Fallen Earth. I don't see why you're lead CPP designers are wasting all this time, money and resources in something as trivial as how "Pretty" the game looks when there are more important things that should be worked on. Like the rest of the Incarna update that was never finished so players can walk on stations. I've seen many many fans of EvE over the years ask for these things, especially the juke box back in the game but it seems they are all over looked and ignored. And it isn't just these two things but a whole list.

From reading all the updates over the years. It seems you're development team are more focused on trying to attract more of the young gamer kids to this game. It seems like your going for things like Graphics, Looks, and dumbing down core game mechanics to make them simple, and easier so the gamers who don't like to work for anything in games, want a sense of accomplishment, or want everything handed to them right off the bat. This aspect seems to be happening in almost all online mmorpg's these days. And unfortunately AAA developers these days just don't seem to get it that those types of players will never come to EvE anyways because it simply is not their cup of tea.

Stop trying to cater to these types of players, because most of the fans of eve are players who are older, intelligent, like challenge and like a sense of depth to EvE. They don't enjoy those types of games like WoW, Rift, or every other MMORPG out there that is catered to one type of player. EvE players are not "dumb" so stop assuming EvE players are dumb by trying to make everything easier to understand or can't do the tutorial in the beginning of the game. The original developers who put these mechanics in were put there for a reason. Thats why they play EvE. Some of the development descions made on this game have really boggled my mind because if you want more players simply add more "Depth" to the game and add more options for players. EvE subscribers don't play this game because of the "Graphics" They play it because of it's depth and the content it offers. It's not rocket science here.

Cheers
Apoq Surrat
Amarritus Patriotus
#220 - 2015-06-25 02:24:46 UTC
Anne Coulter wrote:
Hi there. I don't usually post in forums, But over the years I've been reading these updates. Please don't take this the wrong way CPP. It's not my intention to upset anyone here, especially the EvE fans, but as a game artist, modeler and graphic designer for 20 years I have to admit. The ships look fine as they are. Being involved in the development of mmorpg's in my early 20's myself with Endless Ages and Fallen Earth. I don't see why you're lead CPP designers are wasting all this time, money and resources in something as trivial as how "Pretty" the game looks when there are more important things that should be worked on. Like the rest of the Incarna update that was never finished so players can walk on stations. I've seen many many fans of EvE over the years ask for these things, especially the juke box back in the game but it seems they are all over looked and ignored. And it isn't just these two things but a whole list.

From reading all the updates over the years. It seems you're development team are more focused on trying to attract more of the young gamer kids to this game. It seems like your going for things like Graphics, Looks, and dumbing down core game mechanics to make them simple, and easier so the gamers who don't like to work for anything in games, want a sense of accomplishment, or want everything handed to them right off the bat. This aspect seems to be happening in almost all online mmorpg's these days. And unfortunately AAA developers these days just don't seem to get it that those types of players will never come to EvE anyways because it simply is not their cup of tea.

Stop trying to cater to these types of players, because most of the fans of eve are players who are older, intelligent, like challenge and like a sense of depth to EvE. They don't enjoy those types of games like WoW, Rift, or every other MMORPG out there that is catered to one type of player. EvE players are not "dumb" so stop assuming EvE players are dumb by trying to make everything easier to understand or can't do the tutorial in the beginning of the game. The original developers who put these mechanics in were put there for a reason. Thats why they play EvE. Some of the development descions made on this game have really boggled my mind because if you want more players simply add more "Depth" to the game and add more options for players. EvE subscribers don't play this game because of the "Graphics" They play it because of it's depth and the content it offers. It's not rocket science here.

Cheers


What your saying sounds great, until you look at subscription numbers. EVE sure hasnt collected that many players in 12 years. Maybe these 'older, intelligent' players are out there, but there arent very many of them. CCP needs to attract MORE players, and if that means catering to younger ones with different tastes, then so be it. Its obvious CCP's idea of only catering to 'older, intelligent' players hasnt worked very well, sure, they are still here, but subscriber numbers are nothing to brag about. 12 years and still so few players? Yes, they need to change things. If we had a million players and people were actually complaining about overloaded servers, I would agree with you. But, its not like that, and I dont.

MacPro (mid 2012) dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 64GB ECC Ram, PCIe-SSD, 2x SSHD, BD, SD, Nvidia Titan Xp. Running macOS Sierra 10.12.4.