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The Rorqual and ore mining in EVE. If I had the ear of game design..

Author
Falcair
Mercury Express
#1 - 2015-03-24 05:13:20 UTC
This is going to be a very lengthy post, but it's something I've been working on for the last few days when ideas have come up. As we've seen with posts and reddit musings, the Rorqual has been promised a revamp for over a year now, but if we've waited this long maybe there's the possibility of changes that go much further than one simple hull.

This opinion piece is that of a 10 year (former) bittervet that has mined in every corner of eve, given up multiple times, completely trained a Rorqual pilot to max everything for a nullsec fleet, dabbled in wormhole ore sites and mined in highsec before battleships were commonplace.

Thank you if you're about to take the time to read this through, hopefully this can spur some noticed discussion.

_______________________________________________________________________


There's a few ways to go forward from a design perspective, but ultimately the Rorqual needs to be changed into a focused mining capital (and not simply remain used primarily as a smaller jump freighter). This is going to be one of those ‘if I could change EVE’ posts, but I do have quite a few years of being a rock hunting industrialist to call upon, most of which has occurred in a nullsec environment (and I’m one of the suckers with industrial reconfiguration V). There are going to be radical changes below that would shake up both the Rorqual, Orca and mining bonuses as people currently know them, but it could provide for a much healthier ecosystem for all of the various focused industrialists and give a clearer path for high-end progression.



The highlight of the changes would be as such:

· The Rorqual becomes a mining focused capital, utilizing the industrial core module for large yield increases along with a local rep bonus and ewar / remote assist immunity. The cargo hold is greatly reduced, along with removal of mining foreman link bonuses, the ship maintenance bay and compression ability.

· The Orca is repurposed to an industrial focused freighter with limited jump capabilities in-line with other capitals (5LY). It retains the ship maintenance bay and ore hold, but loses mining foreman link bonuses and cargo hold capacity.

· Two new ORE ‘battlecruiser’ class hulls are introduced (The Tech I Caperea and Tech II Cetus), with a focus on mining link modules. These ships feature mining foreman bonuses, and for the Cetus, siege warfare as well. They also gain bonuses to tractor beam range and speed, survey scanner range, mining drone yields and come with a small ore bay. For bonus points they could utilize a variants of the Noctis model because that thing still looks awesome.

· Creation of medium and large mining drones, and their tech2 equivalents

· Another faction mindlink is introduced, the ORE Mining Director mindlink (Mining Foreman & Siege Warfare bonuses)

· A new storage deployable that anyone can access. It offers timed compression functionality along with a brief reinforcement period if attacked.



The logic behind the above summary is pretty straightforward. For any substantial changes to occur, CCP has to de-couple the Rorqual from a role of jumping freight around. This means we need a new, smaller jump capable hauler that can both serve as a smaller scale goods logistics platform, and a mining op companion. It also means that we have a hodge-podge of ship bonuses that need to be moved to other hulls.

Falcair
Mercury Express
#2 - 2015-03-24 05:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Falcair
The Rorqual

What does it need?

· A 'sieged' on-grid purpose.
· Greatly enhanced defensive ability (via ‘siege’)

Change summary:

· Ore mining functionality added via capital strip miners
· Removal of mining foreman and most other hull bonuses
· Removal of ore compression
· Removal of ship maintenance bay
· Reduction in cargo hold and fleet hanger capacity
· Removal of jump fatigue bonus

The Rorqual strictly becomes an ore mining dreadnaught, with the perks of greatly increased yield and localized tank at the expense of immobility and no offensive ability. This is not a solo mining ship, it will require support to use “safely”. A rough yield figure without industrial core active would be similar to a skiff / retriever, scaling up towards the output of 5 hulks with Industrial Core II. It does lose most hull bonuses along with the ship maintenance bay. Ultimately it’s no longer jump freighter junior.

Hull bonuses:

Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances
5% reduction in Capital Strip Miner duration

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Mining Drone max velocity and hitpoints
• Can only fit Mining Drones
• Can fit Industrial core modules

125m³ drone bay, 125 mbit bandwidth, 200,000 m³ ore bay

Industrial Core would mimic the bonuses of the Siege module, but include a cycle time reduction bonus instead of a yield gain, along with reduced capital strip miner activation cost. The scan resolution penalty would be removed, this is not a combat ship.



The Orca

Change summary:

· Removal of mining foreman and most other hull bonuses
· Reduction in cargo hold and fleet hanger capacity
· Increased ore hold capacity
· Addition of jump drive functionality

The Orca is repurposed into an industrial focused mini-freighter with limited jump capabilities, in-line with other capitals (5LY). It retains the ship maintenance bay and ore hold, but loses mining foreman link bonuses and cargo hold capacity. The fleet hanger would function similarly to deep space transports, maxing at just over 120,000 m³. The ore hold would increase close to that of the previous Rorqual iteration, 240,000 m³ at level V. The cargo hold would be reduced to 6,000 m³, while it would be given a 10,000 m³ fuel bay. Jump fuel costs would be slightly lower compared to the old rorqual at level V.

Since this ship could be in asteroid belts and anomalies, it would also keep the ability to fit a light tank so it won’t melt to npc aggression. It comes with a 1/4/2 slot layout, an unrestricted 25 m³ drone bay and 25 mbit bandwidth . ORE has noticed how lawless space can be.

Hull bonuses:

ORE Freighter bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to fleet hanger and ore hold capacity
5% reduction in jump fuel requirements

Role Bonus:
• 90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue



The Caperea and Cetus

What is their purpose?

· Provide mining foreman link bonuses to mining fleets
· Take command of the mining op by running tractor beams and survey scanners
· Contribute to the op itself with bonuses to mining drones
· Have enhanced resilience compared to empire faction battlecruisers

Hull summary:

· Mining foreman link bonuses (and Siege for the Cetus)
· Small ore bay
· Mining drone hp, velocity and yield bonuses
· Tractor beam range, speed and survey scanner bonuses
· Shield tank, as with most ORE ships

Two new ORE ‘battlecruiser’ class hulls are introduced (The Tech I Caperea and Tech II Cetus), with a focus on mining foreman link command modules. These ships feature mining foreman link bonuses, and for the tech II Cetus siege warfare as well. They also gain bonuses to local tank, tractor beam range and speed, survey scanner range, mining drones and come with a small ore bay. For bonus points they could utilize a variants of the Noctis model because that thing still looks awesome.

Caperea - 4H/5M/2L

Hull bonuses:

ORE Industrial bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Shield Booster amount
3% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Mining Drone max velocity and hitpoints
250% bonus to Tractor Beam range
100% bonus to Tractor Beam velocity
500% bonus to Survey Scanner range
• Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously

100 m³ drone bay, 50 mbit bandwidth. 5,000 m³ ore hold

Cetus - 7H/6M/2L

Hull bonuses:

Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Mining Foreman and 3% bonus to Siege Warfare Links effectiveness
4% bonus to all shield resistances

ORE Industrial bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Shield Booster amount
10% reduction in Command Processor, Mining Foreman and Warfare Link CPU and powergrid requirement

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Mining Drone max velocity and hitpoints
250% bonus to Tractor Beam range
100% bonus to Tractor Beam velocity
500% bonus to Survey Scanner range
• Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously

125 m³ drone bay, 75 mbit bandwidth. 10,000 m³ ore hold
Falcair
Mercury Express
#3 - 2015-03-24 05:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Falcair
Mobile Compression Unit

· A temporary storage deployable
· Mobile compression with duration timer
· Small reinforcement window to reclaim ore contents

This would be another in the line of deployable modules. It would offer functionality to temporarily hold ore without worry of expiration (jetcans), and enter a reinforcement mode if sufficiently damaged. It can compress ore with a duration timer (~1 minute), so you can’t just compress and bail if hostiles enter system. Anyone can loot from this deployable when not reinforced, so ore theft would still be possible. After a reinforcement period of 5~10 minutes, the MCU can be destroyed. This retains the ability to screw with ‘jetcanners’, and if they won’t drive you away you can destroy their ore after holding the field. If they reship and mount a defense, the ore can be reclaimed.

Ore capacity would be 250,000 m³.


New Mining Drones

· Medium and large drones added
· Yield and capacity go up while speed goes down

An area that has been lacking since the drone tiers were introduced. More ORE ships will gain drone bonuses to augment yields, so they will have more impactful use. In line with combat drones, yield, capacity and hit points increase roughly double per size tier while speed is reduced.


New ORE Mindlink

· Includes bonuses of Mining Foreman and Siege Warfare mindlinks
· Available through ORE and empire mining factions (a distribution agreement has been struck!)

This is an easy one, and something Fozzie was already hinting at last year. A mining foreman / siege warfare link. The only change is making this available to the empire mining factions as well, else this implant would be just as expensive as the mining foreman mindlink was previously (1billion).
Falcair
Mercury Express
#4 - 2015-03-24 05:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Falcair
Summary

The exhumers are in a relatively good place, and will always have use even in the face of Rorquals in belts. Rorquals will remain expensive, be helpless without support and won’t overshadow yields as much as dreadnaughts overshadow battleships in terms of percentages. The goal is roughly 5x the yield of a Hulk when using Industrial Core II, Capital Strip Miners and 5 Heavy Mining Drone II’s.

Mining boost maximums are being increased in highsec (15% old Orca to 25% Cetus), while reduced in low,null and w-space (50% old deployed Rorqual to 25% Cetus). This would also be impacted with the ore changes that Fozzie has announced for nullsec. This hopefully means less high ends and a much more uniform distribution for actually building large scale ship industries (without having to import billions of m³ in ore). The goal is to make ore mining outside of high-sec actually worth something without having to multibox 20 accounts, and to provide progression options for industrial players.

The Orca is now what the Rorqual used to be, it’s much smaller than a jump freighter with half the range. Long range logistics will still be domain of the jump freighters, but this provides an easier and cheaper option for players of all security levels.

The Caperea and Cetus provide the last pieces in this re-factored puzzle. Heavier tanks that let them remain on-grid, bonused drones to help out the mining op with, tractor beam and survey scanner bonuses if that’s your thing. The Cetus also provides a unique bonus, offering the ability to sacrifice some mid slots to run two complete sets of gang links without resorting to the fitting mess that T3’s exhibit. These ships are easier to get into than traditional battlecruiser / command ships, utilizing skills that already exist for many players.

Compression has been removed from a ship hull completely, refactored into a unique deployable module. POS based compression arrays still exist and are instant activations, so they will continue to have a use. The MCU somewhat mimics the cargo containers from Perpetuum, jetcan expiry need not ever apply again, but there is risk in utilizing it’s benefits as ore can be stolen or destroyed. And a final reminder, the MCU compression isn’t instant.

So this is a long winded thought on how EVE mining could become more interesting and provide more on-grid content that doesn’t simply die when sneezed at and gives us more ships. Those that simply used the Rorqual to haul now have their option as well, and jump capable pilots need not invest 2.5 - 7 billion to start their endeavors. With a change as massive as this the Capital Industrial and Industrial Command Ship skillpoints should be refunded and players given the option to re-purchase / apply skill points if they wish to continue using a newly repurposed hull. The new Rorqual would have little to no use for someone that would only intend to fly the refactored Orca going forward.
Madd Adda
#5 - 2015-03-24 05:19:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
Quote:

The Rorqual

What does it need?

· A 'sieged' on-grid purpose.
· Greatly enhanced defensive ability (via ‘siege’)

· Ore mining functionality added via capital strip miners
· Removal of mining foreman and most other hull bonuses
· Removal of ore compression
· Removal of ship maintenance bay
· Reduction in cargo hold and fleet hanger capacity

"5% reduction in Capital Strip Miner duration"



please stop, rorqs aren't what you think they are or should. they aren't miners, they buff miners. I adamantly oppose any removal of mining link bonuses on industrial ships. it's foolish to say the least.

plus watching an rorq in siege would be a sad sight.

Carebear extraordinaire

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6 - 2015-03-24 06:52:20 UTC
Madd Adda wrote:


please stop, rorqs aren't what you think they are or should. they aren't miners, they buff miners. I adamantly oppose any removal of mining link bonuses on industrial ships. it's foolish to say the least.

plus watching an rorq in siege would be a sad sight.


Rorquals are in a terrible place right now. When the only reason to have one is for buffing miners and the entirety of its remaining feature set is irrelevant, then that's a clear indication that it's time to re-imagine, re-design and re-purpose the ship.

Even Team Five-O has said that they want to go back and re-do the Rorqual when they think of something for it to do.

The Rorqual is huge and expensive and serves no useful purpose anymore. Simply providing links is not enough. Scrap the Rorqual as it is now and turn it into something - anything - that is better.
Demons Hell
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-03-24 08:25:42 UTC
rise and nullsec group can destroy easy this game without your help.

give me my old range and remove ship maint restriction.

i think we dont need more for our rorqual.

Damn it a capital for mining is ridicolous later we can see red gang everytime in mining system for search ppl in this ship.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-03-24 09:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
It seems to me that the rorqual was originally conceived as an armed chaperone plus mining fleet buffing ship.

It would be great, except that it can alway be overwhelmed by an incoming DPS fleet.

The counter to an incoming fleet is to protect miners with DPS ships, but there's a problem - each DPS ship in place of a miner in the fleet causes a reduction in ISK earned.

So... how to get a DPS militia onto the field with the miners without making it a colossal waste of time?

1. rorqual only gives link bonus on grid.
2. double the rorqual's base mining link bonuses

EDIT: had a cool idea! :)
replace:
3a. mining link bonus is increased by a further 5% for *every non-mining-barge in fleet and on grid* (let's say it's a better comms network)

with:
3b. Carries up to 250 heavy mining drones which can be assigned to DPS ships who are in fleet and on grid!!!
Each heavy mining drone to have the same mining ability as a T1 mining laser. Drone's capabilities are influenced by fleet boosts and assignee's mining skills.

4. can compress ore without being forced to stand still
5. rorqual keeps its excellent drone capabilities
6. rorqual has an in-built micro-jump module that affects every fleet member on grid.
7. keeps its refitting capability
8. can fit a cyno-jamming module in a high slot (burns some fuel type) that prevents a cyno being lit *on grid*.

Now:

1. The DPS ships sitting around amongst the miners are helping to increase yield.
2. The rorqual aids the miners (and itself) in an evacuation
3. rorqual can meaningfully take part in a defence
4. it's starting to become sensible to field a fleet into a belt.



Also:
dump all off-grid boosting
same for the orca - must be on grid, but for goodness sake, give it some evasion/defensive capability.

Result:
Awesome mining fleets with teeth, fleet fights and general eve awesomeness all round.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

MicDeath Titan
No Mans Corp
incendia equus
#9 - 2015-03-24 12:08:40 UTC
The one change I would like to see, is 500x to mass when in siege. Why? Because Rorquals in siege and the heart of the sun have this very happy love for each other. ;)
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#10 - 2015-03-24 12:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Agondray
I could go with this but if the orca gets a capital ship jump drive making it a full blown cap ship, whats to allow it into empire?
Only the jump freighter is the only capital ship with a jump drive that's allowed in empire and that's because you cant abuse the JF, where as ive seen people turn orca and rorqs into combat ships.
If the orca gets a JF it will probably be banned out of empire and then a replacement would be needed for it, for yet a another mining boost.

also people need to stop with this on grid boost stuff, even for mining it would limit the capability of having wings of miners in different belts which I have done before, just because you can track down a boost ship and kill it doesn't mean we should break and set the servers on fire trying to do on grid boost.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#11 - 2015-03-24 12:56:08 UTC
The Rorqual should become the premier ship for Moon Mining.

its pretty much the only thing people cannot mine in the game (people don't mine moons, alliances own them and alts collect the goods).

There are a few hundred different ways that can be accomplished, if CCP could get away from the concept of a afk manless structure mining out moonstuff (not to dismiss CCP but that would be a significant change to nullsec as moons would no longer be owned and managed by 1 guy in a alt corp in a alt alliance of a bigblock).

Yaay!!!!

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-03-24 13:19:31 UTC
Agondray wrote:
I could go with this but if the orca gets a capital ship jump drive making it a full blown cap ship, whats to allow it into empire?


There is no good case for allowing a rorqual into hisec. hisec operations should not pay big (looking at you, riskless incursion fairies).

Phoenix Jones wrote:


The Rorqual should become the premier ship for Moon Mining.



I could get on board with this - if a rorqual could be used to lead a moon mining expedition in someone else's space there'd be all kinds of fun emergent engagements as a result.

If the rorqual was required to be in space to mine a moon then again, there could be some fun play around the disruption of manufacturing and supply lines.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Deandra Rollard
The Rent Is Too Damn High Party
#13 - 2015-06-16 12:50:40 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Agondray wrote:
I could go with this but if the orca gets a capital ship jump drive making it a full blown cap ship, whats to allow it into empire?


There is no good case for allowing a rorqual into hisec. hisec operations should not pay big (looking at you, riskless incursion fairies).

Phoenix Jones wrote:


The Rorqual should become the premier ship for Moon Mining.



I could get on board with this - if a rorqual could be used to lead a moon mining expedition in someone else's space there'd be all kinds of fun emergent engagements as a result.

If the rorqual was required to be in space to mine a moon then again, there could be some fun play around the disruption of manufacturing and supply lines.



Aww.. you sound alittle sad that incursion communities who work together for a common good are making buttloads of ISK while you arent....

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2015-06-16 13:18:02 UTC
Very well written compared to most ship ideas posted these days. Also very nice with indepth description of changes and how it would contribute.

Rorquals are horrifically broken and have almost no place in the game.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2015-06-16 14:53:51 UTC
I think we need to stop trying to justify the existence of the Indy core. I would compare it to trying to bedazzle your handcuffs.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#16 - 2015-06-18 15:29:32 UTC
Since the time people ask for a change about Rorqual, mining mechanic and mining gameplay, or even industry in general, I really have the feeling that even if someone came on this F&I Discussion forum with the perfect idea, making mining engaging, with perfectly balanced ships without needed a ton of work, not a single f*** would be given by CPP for the next decade.
B'cause you know, adding more imbalanced PvP ships and nullsec stuff What?.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#17 - 2015-06-20 05:47:46 UTC
like i have said in other garbage posts like this one. turning the rorqual into a mega strip miner is just begging for tritanium to drop in value to 0.00000001 isk per unit. just stop with these poorly thought out trash posts because i can assure you CCP would not be shortsighted enough to put a mega miner into the game it achieves only one thing and that is the complete melt down of the mineral market in days, if not hours.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-06-20 06:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-06-20 06:26:27 UTC
the main problem i've observed with rorq proposals is that people in reality don't know what they want from this poor and broken ship so they start suggesting all kind of wierd fantasy they got over the years. i got a strong feeling that ccp is simply not ready to do anything with it for now or until they see anything solid.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP