These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

[PRESS] Hilen Tukoss neural tissue sample analysis; other releases

Author
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#41 - 2015-06-18 18:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
Daaaain wrote:
Man I really wish I could understand all this babble. You fellas are blinding me with science. Is there any way you could explain in layman terms lovely Ms. Scherezad.

Um, gosh. Thank you! The whole thing? In layman's terms? Huh. Give me a little time! I have a hard time describing these things outside of network models, and I assume that you aren't interested in probabilistic statistics! I'll see what I can do for you, sir.

EDIT

Okay. I will try! A fragment was found of what is believed to be Hilen Tukoss's brain! We have studied it and come to a few findings. The overall conclusion was that we believe that Mr Tukoss's neural burner was activated in a normal fashion once his pod was ruptured - the same sort of event we've all suffered. An accident, or perhaps intrigue, caused the neural burn to fail to complete in th clone - perhaps it was the clone supplier's fault, or perhaps there was interference! We don't know. Bu the burn process seems to have completed normally.

During the examination we noticed some very odd things, however! There were fragments of fairly normal implants, and there were signs of medical nanites being used, but nothing unusual. The brain tissue itself, though, was really weird.

The tissue sample had a piece of neocortex - that's the big blobby grey bit on the top, unlike the little white blobby bits underneath. That's the memory-holding bit, and the rationality-bit, and it's where a lot of consciousness-related processes happen. It's you!

Neocortex is layered in six layers, from the outside in. It's also arranged in columns - each column is largely self contained. A single column might be responsible for identifying horizontal lines for your left eye below the plane of the horizon (that's a very dominant one, that) or it may be responsible for associating the smell of apple pie with the colour red, or maybe the concept of democracy with the colour green. Each column has some sort of basic logical function, sort of like that!

Typically each column is pretty self-contained - they don't talk much to their neighbors. Layers 2 and 3 are where that communication happens - imagine them like little transistors plugged into a circuit board, with all of the cross-wiring between circuits happening on the board. The board is layers 2 and 3. That's a normal brain.

This sample, though, was very different. Layers 1, 4 and 5 are doing the same as 2 and 3 - it's nothing but circuit board! It's a big noodly mess of neurons. This would utterly destroy normal cognition - normal human thought patterns. I'm guessing that this person would have symptoms similar to schizophrenia, to be honest. The interference of all of those extra cross-communicating neurons would cause a sort of "electrical storms" that is seen in seizures as well! It's very hard to tell specifically what the results would be. It's a mystery!

Is that a little more clear?

- S
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#42 - 2015-06-18 18:45:49 UTC
'Massively parallel biological pattern recognition device,' was one of the first and most memorable phrases I heard on meeting Scherezad to recruit her for this project.

I might be misremembering, though.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2015-06-18 18:52:56 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Now that description actually sounds much more like the mythical Babbage machines, complex question in, crank handle once, simple answer out.


That, sir, is actually a very good description of a brain! Cranky simplification machines.


So Hilen's brain had been re-engineered to effectively expand his processing 'registers' laterally, allowing him to process multiple possibilities in the same turn of the crank. Rather than having to make leaps of logic Hilen could calculate who knows how many possible answers at once. In fact even being able to calculate four conclusions in one run would produce amazing results.

There's no way an existing brain could be re-engineered in-situ. This must have been designed into his last known clone at the outset. I'd be interested to know what the SoE implants were considering they must also have been designed for the new cerebral architecture.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2015-06-18 19:39:39 UTC
Scherezad's comment on cephalapoda earlier gave me some ideas. My understanding (in loose terms) is that the neural structure of the cephalapod is reflected to a degree in it's limbs: the brain feeds the limb co-ordinates and the instruction 'grab', and the limb then performs the task independently.

Is it possible that the structure of Hilen's brain allowed similar 'fire and forget' co-processing? Offload thought threads for subconscious processing whilst concentrating on the main thread of investigation?

Then I thought of the layers of neurons and the linking between them. Take one thread of thought passing down a column, at later one the thought can now trigger two or more 'lateral' cogitations whilst feeding information down to the next layer for further processing. Alongside thiseach lateral cogitation can trigger further lateral cogitations or pass information down a parallel column. In the next layer the results of a lateral thread can even be fed back to the original thread and also follow an entirely separate thread *simultaneously*.

Would this not allow for effectively 3-dimensional processing in the brain?

Please let me know if there is a place for me in this research, it has certainly piqued my interest.
Daaaain
Innocent Friend
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2015-06-18 21:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Daaaain
Thank you for your patience Ms Sherezad your kindness is a beacon of light in this dark pit that is the IGS.
I understand quite clearly now, but I have another question... would the use of the drug C3 cause those mutations?

He used to do experiments with it if my memory doesn't fail me.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2015-06-18 22:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Daaaain wrote:
Thank you for your patience Ms Sherezad your kindness is a beacon of light in this dark pit that is the IGS.
I understand quite clearly now, but I have another question... would the use of the drug C3 cause those mutations?

He used to do experiments with it if my memory doesn't fail me.


Having read the description it doesn't sound like a side effect of this drug. The brain sample had a different biological architecture I think, rather than simply compartmentalized areas. It sounds more like Hilen's brain was vastly opened up rather than having areas ring-fenced off.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#47 - 2015-06-18 23:34:08 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Scherezad's comment on cephalapoda earlier gave me some ideas. My understanding (in loose terms) is that the neural structure of the cephalapod is reflected to a degree in it's limbs: the brain feeds the limb co-ordinates and the instruction 'grab', and the limb then performs the task independently.

Is it possible that the structure of Hilen's brain allowed similar 'fire and forget' co-processing? Offload thought threads for subconscious processing whilst concentrating on the main thread of investigation?

Then I thought of the layers of neurons and the linking between them. Take one thread of thought passing down a column, at later one the thought can now trigger two or more 'lateral' cogitations whilst feeding information down to the next layer for further processing. Alongside thiseach lateral cogitation can trigger further lateral cogitations or pass information down a parallel column. In the next layer the results of a lateral thread can even be fed back to the original thread and also follow an entirely separate thread *simultaneously*.

Would this not allow for effectively 3-dimensional processing in the brain?

Please let me know if there is a place for me in this research, it has certainly piqued my interest.

We're always happy for additional help. Priano-haani is the investigation head, if you'd like to get ahold of her. Alternatively, you can send me a mail with your skills and interests and we can see what we can work out!

As for the co-processing model you are suggesting, I think there's a little bit of a miscommunication somewhere? The microscopic structures of the nocortex are beneath the level of conscious and subconscious thought - you might consider each neocortical column to be a thoughtlet, activating at different strengths. Otherwise what you describe isn't a bad description of how the brain generally operates - sensory information activating basic pattern-recognizers, which in turn activate more abstract recognizers, etcetera, distributing the initial signal throughout the brain. Eventually the pattern achieves stability - this is when a brain can be said to have "decided" on a particular outcome.

This behaviour is one for a normal, healthy brain. Our sample here is representative of one which is not. In this one, unless the cross-referencing neurons are extremely finely designed so as to be precise in communication, the action of these neurons would be to disrupt normal signal distribution, by inhibiting or activating where this would not otherwise take place. Given that the individual was apparently intelligent enough to pilot a Capsule, it suggests that the brain involved was very highly designed. Curious!
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#48 - 2015-06-18 23:39:24 UTC
Daaaain wrote:
Thank you for your patience Ms Sherezad your kindness is a beacon of light in this dark pit that is the IGS.
I understand quite clearly now, but I have another question... would the use of the drug C3 cause those mutations?

He used to do experiments with it if my memory doesn't fail me.

C3's an interesting nootropic! It woudln't cause these sorts of behaviours, but I can see an individual with this sort of a brian configuration almost requiring C3 to function! That partial partitioning of long-range neural structures seems like it would be vital in maintaining a coherent conscious state.

Brings up an interesting question. Priano-haani, did we include a macromolecule profiling? something that would catch C3? I didn't see that chart - did we get any hits there, or was that swallowed up in the "normal macro profile"?

Thank you!
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#49 - 2015-06-18 23:44:10 UTC
Hmm. Wouldn't C3 have shown up during the toxicology testing? Given its use by many capsuleers, I'd assume the standard toxicology battery run by Dr. Tenebrae would catch it. Mind, I suppose use of it only ticked up in recent years, so it might not be part of the battery yet. I'll check with her to make sure it is.

Thanks for the note on that front, Scherezad-haani.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2015-06-19 09:10:39 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh]
We're always happy for additional help. Priano-haani is the investigation head, if you'd like to get ahold of her. Alternatively, you can send me a mail with your skills and interests and we can see what we can work out!

As for the co-processing model you are suggesting, I think there's a little bit of a miscommunication somewhere? The microscopic structures of the nocortex are beneath the level of conscious and subconscious thought - you might consider each neocortical column to be a thoughtlet, activating at different strengths. Otherwise what you describe isn't a bad description of how the brain generally operates - sensory information activating basic pattern-recognizers, which in turn activate more abstract recognizers, etcetera, distributing the initial signal throughout the brain. Eventually the pattern achieves stability - this is when a brain can be said to have "decided" on a particular outcome.

This behaviour is one for a normal, healthy brain. Our sample here is representative of one which is not. In this one, unless the cross-referencing neurons are extremely finely designed so as to be precise in communication, the action of these neurons would be to disrupt normal signal distribution, by inhibiting or activating where this would not otherwise take place. Given that the individual was apparently intelligent enough to pilot a Capsule, it suggests that the brain involved was very highly designed. Curious!


Thanks for the information, I'll forward my info as suggested. There was no miscommunication, just a lack of understanding on my part!

The functioning of the brain sample you have seems analogous to in atmosphere airframe design. These are constructed in such a way as to be slightly outside of stability, they can fly but only with constant correction from the fly-by-wire control systems. The pilot points the craft in the right direction and the FBW system actually flies the airframe.

In this brain structure the psychology of the inhabitant would be inherently unstable, always on the edge of a crash. The C3 would be the FBW, keeping the brain functioning in the direction that the inhabitants consciousness points it.

The airframe example gives much greater performance that simply wouldn't be possible otherwise, I do wonder if the same principle applies here.

This leads me to two thoughts: This brain has been designed in such a way but also biologically constructed to perform in such a manner. Along with this the builder of the clone has also developed the mechanism required to map a standard brain scan to a new brain structure. Who provided Hilen with this clone and to what purpose?

Another thought, If the natural structure of the brain that keeps thoughts separate for processing has been circumvented allowing the waves of activation to wash through each other could this lead to a form of constructive and destructive interference as per classical wave theory? Destructive interference would remove fruitless paths of thought whilst constructive interference would in effect short-circuit the thought process allowing a conclusion to be reached more rapidly?
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#51 - 2015-06-19 15:45:28 UTC
It's an interesting metaphor - I don't entirely follow it, but it's something to think about! I think there are some correlations between your metaphor and the neurological structure, but I'll have to give it some time.

I've no idea where the clone brain would have come from; I do know that mapping from a normal brain to this structure without massive technological assistance would be impossible, and even then I can't see it happening without some sort of discontinuity.

The constructive and destructive interference you are suggesting is the normal function of the excitatory and inhibitory neurons that normally cross between columns in fact! The concern here is that, with such massive cross-communication, how could coherent pattern recognition happen? It's a mystery to everybody.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-06-19 15:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Scherezad wrote:
It's an interesting metaphor - I don't entirely follow it, but it's something to think about! I think there are some correlations between your metaphor and the neurological structure, but I'll have to give it some time.

I've no idea where the clone brain would have come from; I do know that mapping from a normal brain to this structure without massive technological assistance would be impossible, and even then I can't see it happening without some sort of discontinuity.

The constructive and destructive interference you are suggesting is the normal function of the excitatory and inhibitory neurons that normally cross between columns in fact! The concern here is that, with such massive cross-communication, how could coherent pattern recognition happen? It's a mystery to everybody.


Regarding my analogy consider an aircraft in the atmosphere. Normally a simple-to-fly craft would be aerodynamically stable, able to fly pretty much straight with minimal input from the pilot.

Now consider a fighter craft, this is designed to be inherently aerodynamically unstable, without constant correction it will practically fall out of its flight envelope. Now the constant correction required is way beyond any human (even enhanced) capability to provide thus the FBW systems are required. These constantly correct the myriad of 'twitches' in the flight path for normal flight. When the fighter needs to perform drastic maneuvers the pilot for instance banks left sharply, the FBW system turns the craft as required and because of the aerodynamic instability the aircraft will maneuver much more rapidly than if it were manually guided by the pilot.

Such craft are actually operating outside of a stable flight envelope and can only remain in the air by virtue of the FBW system.

In this context the brain of Hilen was operating way outside the normal thought processing envelope and would crash immediately without an FBW system (the C3). Hilen would in effect be guiding his thought processes in the direction he wished but the brain would be performing beyond his conscious capabilities and only kept in line and working in the correct direction by the C3.

So my postulation is that the structure seen in the sample would allow for much more constructive and destructive interference between thoughtlets, greatly enhancing the speed at which conclusions can be reached. Where this would normally throw a person into a catatonic state the C3 pulls the thoughts back into a normal focused process.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#53 - 2015-06-19 15:56:25 UTC
Briefly, the clone architecture is indeed novel. It is likely either a prototype, proof-of-concept, or a classified short production run model. That Tukoss was using it is certainly interesting. Given his affiliations, it could very easily have been developed by Eifyr & Co., or possibly Poteque Pharmaceuticals, or a skunkworks division within another major firm or research group.

While the presence of Sisters of EVE implants is suggestive, 'Virtue' series implants have been available commercially for some time, while 'Ascendancy' series implants are readily available for those who've raided covert research facilities. It isn't difficult to acquire these, that's to say, and I imagine any novel clone architecture would be engineered in such a way as to permit continued use of existing hardwiring technology.

Without the complete corpse, we will be unable to identify markers on the clone and production techniques used by its creator, and so I doubt we'll be able to identify its source definitively.

Unfortunately, the expeditionary group was unable to retrieve Tukoss's corpse when we returned to the Redoubt Hive some days later, as it had disappeared.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Malleus Karris
Karris Family
#54 - 2015-06-19 16:15:11 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
This behaviour is one for a normal, healthy brain. Our sample here is representative of one which is not. In this one, unless the cross-referencing neurons are extremely finely designed so as to be precise in communication, the action of these neurons would be to disrupt normal signal distribution, by inhibiting or activating where this would not otherwise take place. Given that the individual was apparently intelligent enough to pilot a Capsule, it suggests that the brain involved was very highly designed. Curious!

Something does not seem right with this. A corpse left in space, unnatural brain formation, etc. It's like someone planted a corpse of Hilen Tukoss simply to drive home the fact that he is dead. A corpse from his own DNA, but with abnormal brain structure? It does not make sense. Given the transmissions by Hilen Tukoss around the time of the leaked transmission given to The Scope, it is likely that Hilen Tukoss was taken captive. Dr. Tukoss had the intelligence and knowledge to gain access to communications systems on his own. Further, the fact that Dr. Tukoss' GalNet ID was hacked suggests that whomever had him was able to access his implants and capsule, as well as having experience with Capsule technology and interstellar communications.

Everything points to this being something more than it appears to be. There are unanswered questions. This reminds me of a staged crime scene, one that is intended to throw investigators off the trail.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#55 - 2015-06-19 17:59:30 UTC
The first releases under the other release header have started to hit Galnet.

Interested parties are advised to read Mark726's summary of the infiltration of the Conflux and Vidette Hive facilities, on Galnet here.

Interested parties are also requested to support Uriel Paradisi Anteovnucci's call for information from the Jove corporations operating in Empire space, who may have as-yet-unreleased information on the fate of the Jove and how that may relate to the Vigilant Tyrannos.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Mark726
Project Compass Holdings
#56 - 2015-06-19 18:32:39 UTC
My thanks to Ms. Priano for promoting my piece on the Drifter complexes and, once again, for allowing me to join her corporate excursions.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#57 - 2015-06-25 20:29:52 UTC
I finally got to read it in details. Excellente work and some interesting findings. The alterations of his cortex really intrigues me. Could it be that the drifters had attempted to modify his neural tissue to make him one of them or to extract information from his brain? This could certainly give us a better understanding of their nature if we can recover additional samples.

It still strikes me that they left his corpse floating in space. Everything else they have been doing is shrouded. They should have known that the corpse would give us information. In one way or another.

Are there any psychological or neurological reports of Dr. Tukoss before he left. If so, is it possible for you to access it and compare the findings?

❤️️💛💚💙💜

Previous page123