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Dev blog: Feedback on the new Overview Brackets

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Author
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-06-18 17:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
With the Carnyx release on June 2nd we got a set of competely new icons in space and in the overview. Such a large change naturally has raised the attention of many players and we have received a lot of feedback raising questions and pointing to some issues (for example with UI scaling and difficulties differentiating between NPCs and players).

Please read the blog Feedback on the new Overview Brackets by CCP Surge to learn more about the design and goals behind those new icons and the road ahead!

As always, your constructive feedback is most welcome and helpful. Thank you!

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#2 - 2015-06-18 17:44:50 UTC
Quote:
Improve NPC and player ship distinction

We agree with much of the feedback that the subtle interior fill to indicate NPCs is simply not drastic enough, so we’re looking at other ways to make NPC brackets more clearly identifiable compared to player-controlled ships.


This is very, very simple: Fill the NPC icons with the same color as the outline. Solid white/grey for nonhostile, and solid red for hostile. Done.

As far as overview stuff goes... would love it if you guys could get sort-by-icon to work properly. It has never worked before, but with the icons for cruiser/battlecruiser and frigate/destroyer being distinct from one another it's even more obvious that it is broken.

Edit - first! \o\

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Mona Kasenumi
Manda Nudis
#3 - 2015-06-18 17:45:07 UTC
The main issue for me after a couple of days is still npc x players and swarm of drones.
Other than that I think that they are great!
Casey Ambraelle
VoidRunner's Inc.
#4 - 2015-06-18 17:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Casey Ambraelle
Maybe make the NPC's a solid filled icon instead of kinda filled as they currently are to give more distinction between players and NPC's?

EDIT: and a bigger clearer cheat sheet we can print or have as a pdf while we relearn all of them, even at expanded size the screen shot in the blog is still hard to actually see the icons.
Doomchinchilla
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2015-06-18 17:50:21 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
[quote]
As far as overview stuff goes... would love it if you guys could get sort-by-icon to work properly. It has never worked before, but with the icons for cruiser/battlecruiser and frigate/destroyer being distinct from one another it's even more obvious that it is broken.

This is a huge one, sorting by icon is horrible right now. Also drone icons are atrocious, I'm really not sure what to be afraid of as an FC. On top of that wrecks just don't look distinct enough to really be wrecks differentiated from fleet ships.
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-06-18 17:51:23 UTC
The VAST VAST majority of your player base is sayimg NO we dont want these icons. Give us optiom to use old til you fix it!

Just like the map team! They are smart.
Just like the corp title switch people. They are smart.


These artists? LoL


Give us an option to revert and not use your terrible new icons.


From SiSi you had thousands of replies with negative feedback.
From Carnage release thread you have thousands more negative icon-hating feedbacks.
Im sure this will be the same.


Dude just give up and give in?




WHY CANT WE HAVE OPTION TO REVERT TEMPORARILY?? JUST TIL YOU FIX THIS STUFF?
WHY NOT?
WHY?
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-06-18 17:55:07 UTC
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
The VAST VAST majority of your player base is sayimg NO we dont want these icons. Give us optiom to use old til you fix it!


I wouldn't say a VAST VAST majority, but at the very least a VERY loud minority. An option to use the old ones similar to maps would be pretty cool though. Personally other than the destroyer icon, which I have confused for the old wreck icon a couple times, the icons are not bad and I'm getting used to them just fine. I would love an option to sort/filter by icon though, that would be super sweet.

Thanks for the update! Smile
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2015-06-18 17:55:20 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
As far as overview stuff goes... would love it if you guys could get sort-by-icon to work properly. It has never worked before, but with the icons for cruiser/battlecruiser and frigate/destroyer being distinct from one another it's even more obvious that it is broken.

Edit - first! \o\
It first sorts based on the icon's "flag" and backgrounds , so it will sort the list so your -10 contacts are grouped together and the -5 together, etc. And within those groups it will sort based on ship groups and categories.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#9 - 2015-06-18 17:56:31 UTC
The vocal few do not always represent the silent mass, Carrie-Anne, polemics aside.

That said, there's clearly still work to be done on the brackets, but I do think the set will be an improvement in the long term once that work is done.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Martin Corwin
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-06-18 17:57:56 UTC
Love the new icons. Cool Please don't listen too all these fossils complaining and keep them! Big smile
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-06-18 17:57:58 UTC
Thanks for taking the threadnaught of bad feedback and requests for a "Use old Icons" button into consideration, along with all the complaints about color blindness, etc.

Your willingness to listen to your playerbase on the icon issue, the new and massively improved map, and these awesome new fleet warp changes are greatly appreciated, and in no way make your playerbase want to start shooting at statues.

With your skyrocketing player numbers, you should definitely continue to carefully consider player feedback as well as you have been doing lately. I'm sure your numbers will only continue to go up.
Blue Harrier
#12 - 2015-06-18 17:58:45 UTC
You still haven’t answered the question for me, how are you working to update the icons for colour blind users?

What does it matter what colour my ‘in space’ (not overview) icons are coloured, only I can see them, it matters not if I have bright orange as ‘hostile’, blue as ‘friend’ and white as ‘I don’t care what you are’. Only I (that’s me) can see them, it interferes with no one else, but I can’t.

But these small (as in tiny even at 1080p) icons are so damn small that even in the overview I have difficulty working out what they are and in space well it’s a no no from the start.

Sadly colour blindness is not classed as a disability in the UK (I believe some countries do class it so) so I can’t wave a sheaf of paper under your noses to get something done.

That’s it, I shall say no more on the subject.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Casey Ambraelle
VoidRunner's Inc.
#13 - 2015-06-18 18:03:50 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
As far as overview stuff goes... would love it if you guys could get sort-by-icon to work properly. It has never worked before, but with the icons for cruiser/battlecruiser and frigate/destroyer being distinct from one another it's even more obvious that it is broken.

Edit - first! \o\


It first sorts based on the icon's "flag" and backgrounds , so it will sort the list so your -10 contacts are grouped together and the -5 together, etc. And within those groups it will sort based on ship groups and categories.



Change the sort order so that it first sorts on ship size/group then on standings. Hell why is it even sorting based on standings to begin with? With specific overview presets to show only hostiles, hostiles in x ship, etc it seams kinda redundant for it to sort based on standings first before any user selected sorting.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#14 - 2015-06-18 18:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
Thanks for taking the threadnaught of bad feedback and requests for a "Use old Icons" button into consideration, along with all the complaints about color blindness, etc.

Your willingness to listen to your playerbase on the icon issue, the new and massively improved map, and these awesome new fleet warp changes are greatly appreciated, and in no way make your playerbase want to start shooting at statues.

With your skyrocketing player numbers, you should definitely continue to carefully consider player feedback as well as you have been doing lately. I'm sure your numbers will only continue to go up.



As i know this is sarcasm, i will point out that PCU count =! subscription numbers. And as ccp has that information and should, in theory, be working accordingly to keep that information going up, or stable, i'll place you in the 'i have no idea what i am talking about' category, because unless you work for ccp, you *gasp* have no idea what you are talking about

a small example why you have no idea what you are talking about. I have 4 accounts, all paid for a year. i use 2 every day, and the other 2 only when needed. they have over a year of skills training, so i have no need to log in. I am sure others are in the same boat, or even on a break while there char still trains. This would in no way effect sub numbers but would effect player counts. A better gage of how healthy eve is will be towards the end of the year, after the sov changes are in and moving (maybe phase 3 will be done too) and hopefully phase 1 of new structures will be in. Then you will see if some of the old stuff being fixed and changed will bring people back. For all i know, there are several thousand accounts waiting for fozzy sov to hit before coming back. but meh we will see. Anyway, you still have no evidence to support your sarcastic claim.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2015-06-18 18:06:21 UTC
Personally, I really like the vast majority of the new icons. You can actually tell ship sizes and classes apart at a glance once you learn the icons, something you could never do with the generic square brackets.

There's a few bad ones though, drones being the worst. When every ship launches a set of drones in a fight the brackets add a great deal of clutter and make it hard to distinguish between ship brackets and drone brackets. From reading the blog it seems that you recognize this though which is a good sign.
Judith Baker
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#16 - 2015-06-18 18:11:07 UTC
Just add the ability for us to use custom icon packs.
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-06-18 18:12:00 UTC
SiSi the TEST SERVER exists so you guys can TEST STUFF THAT AINT READY

Until you fixed all the issues and did all this future work om them


KEEP THEM ON THE TEST SERVER DUDE

Thats what is exists for.

DoNt put unfinshed stuff on TQ
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#18 - 2015-06-18 18:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwen Lagann
CCP karkur wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:
As far as overview stuff goes... would love it if you guys could get sort-by-icon to work properly. It has never worked before, but with the icons for cruiser/battlecruiser and frigate/destroyer being distinct from one another it's even more obvious that it is broken.

Edit - first! \o\
It first sorts based on the icon's "flag" and backgrounds , so it will sort the list so your -10 contacts are grouped together and the -5 together, etc. And within those groups it will sort based on ship groups and categories.

This is the sort of thing that falls under "completely not obvious or in any way visible to the player by any sensible means" - I doubt many (if any) players could have said that is how it worked before you posted that just now. P That said, if that's how it works, it seems to me that while it might work intentionally in one manner to you guys, it's certainly not working in the manner the players intend or expect it to when we click on the header to sort by icon.

Which is why I'm mostly agreed w/ Casey here - we're looking at two different user requirements here, and so a toggle to turn the standings sort on/off within sort-by-icon would be nice. That said, I'd even go so far as to suggest properly splitting the two requirements from each other and add a standings column that could be used to sort in exactly the manner you describe. Don't need it to show anything, just the colortag for the entity.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Lady Gwendolyn Antollare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-06-18 18:25:49 UTC
Casey Ambraelle wrote:
Maybe make the NPC's a solid filled icon instead of kinda filled as they currently are to give more distinction between players and NPC's?

EDIT: and a bigger clearer cheat sheet we can print or have as a pdf while we relearn all of them, even at expanded size the screen shot in the blog is still hard to actually see the icons.


Rix Javix Icon Guide

Nerfing Hisec has never fixed Losec or Nullsec

Louanne Barros
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-06-18 18:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Louanne Barros
Like I predicted in the other thread, this blog post turns out to blame players for everything. Look at how insulting this section is on its own:

CCP wrote:

As pilots undocked expecting their familiar foes to be square brackets and crosses they unexpectedly came under attack by chevrons, diamonds, and house-shaped adversaries armed to the teeth. Some were so spooked and disoriented they began to fire on any geometric symbols in their vicinity. Others believed they were being attacked by their own warp bubbles and returned fire… Those that managed to adapt quickly in the early days of the great Iconocalypse of 2015 certainly profited handsomely from the confusion it sowed.


This is what they think of the player-base apparently; easily-confused, bumbling around accidentally shooting the wrong thing.
You may have us confused for.. almost any other MMO's player-base, but not EVE's?

There's nothing to "adapt" to, CCP; many of us were already extremely familiar with the new icons before they were released on TQ, and are still unhappy with them. Terrible blog post.

Also re: blog post grammar, that is not what 'imminent' means.


Edit: Can we at least have the 'sort by icon' behavior on the overview sort things by size or some other logical order, not lexically based on the type of the entity?
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