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Missile Guidance Enhancer?

Author
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#121 - 2015-06-13 13:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fourteen Maken
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
First.. yay for missile TE. 2nd.. missile nerfs incoming.

I am hoping the majority of the nerfs affect LM range/application. So as to bring their range down to 30ish km and MAYBE this will reduce some of the garm/orthrus and other kitey missile cancer that is so common nowadays. If garms want to orbit at 50km and missile spam, they will need the missile TE to get back up to prenerf range.

However if they nerf all missiles.. this will make missile ships even weaker. HAM ships for example have fairly low dps, and having to drop a BCU for MTE just to get back to the current normal stats is going to make them even weaker.

I dont think they could make heavies any worse.. but i wont rule it out completely. If they buff heavies, they will need to nerf RHML to compensate. Maybe lose a few missiles per clip if heavies get a damage/application buff.

Cruise might get a minor application nerf. Hopefully they tweak torps a bit and nerf bombers to compensate.

As to the kinetic lock.. you guys do realize that will never change in the t2 variations right? Maybe even some of the t1s. How would t2 gal resist profile look if caldari did omni damage? I for one am tired of gal being master race.. they dont need t2 omni resist profile too.

Gal do mainly therm/kinetic dmg, t2 caldari have resists in mainly therm and kinetic. Caldari do mainly kinetic and some thermal dmg and so gallente have high kinetic and slightly less thermal tank. If caldari suddenly do omni damage, then what do you think will happen to t2 gal resist profile?


Light missiles are not cancerous now apart from the Garmur, and the Garmur itself is OP because of it's speed coupled with point range bonus and hefty missile bonuses to missile dps and velocity. Most Kestrels, Hookbills, and Breachers use rockets, condors and crows are not that common now because dps is so low as it is. Leave light missiles alone they are not a problem apart from the Garmur which needs to have its speed reduced and the point range bonus should only apply to either scram or disruptor but not both.

The module looks to me like it's for low slots which means you're unlikely to see them on anything smaller than a cruiser anyway, and they won't be nearly as effective on light missiles as they will on the problem missiles like HAM's, HML and up, for instance If I'm fitting a RLML Caracal and I have to chose between a bcu or a missile tracking enhancer I'll pick the bcu every time because my application is already good.... but if I'm fitting HAM's or Heavies I'll drop the BCU and fit one of these to help with application because that's going to make more difference than extra raw dps. So there's no need to nerf anything because the missiles this module affects are already in a bad place as it is.

I like it because it's a good way to buff the problem missiles without buffing lights/rapid lights, and it gives more fitting options for missile ships, but unless it gives a huge buff I don't think it will be enough on it's own for most heavy missiles. If there are no nerfs you might see more people use RHML which is a good thing because missile battleships have very little other use in pvp, it will also help Drakes and especially Cyclones and again this is whats needed, but Torps and HAM's will still need their fitting cost reduced to make viable pvp fits, Torps and Heavies also need better base dmg application even with this module fitted.

Not sure why you think cruise will get an application nerf? they're not even in the same league as turrets or drones for battleship pvp so why would they need a nerf? If the aim here is to ensure the same meta prevails there's no point introducing this module, you could drop it in game now without changing anything else and you still won't see much more large missile usage in pvp due to firewalling, delayed dps, and poor application. Larger fleets will always go for turrets or drones because missiles waste too much dps and can be almost completely negated by smart bombs, so give large missiles a place in small gang and solo by making them better than turrets and drones in these roles.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#122 - 2015-06-15 14:35:10 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
I'll jump on the paranoia train.

Rocket and Missile ships will become obsolete unless they are Jackdaws.

With the upcoming Missile TEs/TCs, missiles of all kinds will get application nerfs the same way ACs did. You will need 1-2 of the new modules to bring them back to the previous levels. And in the same manner as TCs, none of the small ships will have any goddamn space to fit them, unless they arbitrarily have 6 mid slots.

For the time being drones will remain being the better missiles. If CCP doesn't nerf missiles, ABs will be even more s***; as if the 44% damage reduction gained from running on ABs against missiles actually mattered.

These modules aren't needed TBH. It seems like they are added solely because someone at CCP caved into the crowd that mindlessly wanted Missile TE/TCs cos turrets have them. Roll It's like they were begging to have mids/low removed or wasted on compulsory modules.

Inb4 "you have choice". Like, lose because you have a gimp fit or lose because you apply 30% of your paper DPS.


They said in the o7 show they were not planning any nerfs to missiles, and they are actually buffing the dps on Heavies by 5% as well. I think you're all overestimating the power of these modules, we already have missile rigs that can do the same things and if they put stacking penalties across the rigs and modules there won't be a huge difference in the stats because the 3 rigs themselves will be less effective, and the 4th module will be so heavily penalized it probably won't be worth using except for specialized fits... and that's mostly what will change: more fitting options, more specialized fits and all of it at the cost of tank/dps/ewar so they don't become too OP.

I think it's a good change, a small buff that will mostly benefit larger missiles, and more fitting options because missile ships almost fit themselves atm.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#123 - 2015-06-18 00:41:36 UTC
I am wary of the scripted togglable computer as it seems like a great way to let you do Time on Target salvos for double or triple alpha.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#124 - 2015-06-18 04:47:35 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
I am wary of the scripted togglable computer as it seems like a great way to let you do Time on Target salvos for double or triple alpha.


What?

Seriously, I'm trying to figure out what you mean here. It's simply damage application or range that can be increased by these. In the case of application (the only thing that can increase the damage dealt), you're talking about what we assume to be around a 30% increase to the base missile stats with stacking penalties. Missiles are still hard capped on their damage so they aren't going to magically crit you for anything more than that.

Basically the only way you're going to get hit for double/triple alpha is if you go from moving to not moving at all in a small ship and they're scripted precision. In which case, far worse will happen to you if you do that to a player using turrets since your size only effects their chance to hit, not their damage like with missiles.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#125 - 2015-06-18 06:16:46 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
I am wary of the scripted togglable computer as it seems like a great way to let you do Time on Target salvos for double or triple alpha.


What?

Seriously, I'm trying to figure out what you mean here. It's simply damage application or range that can be increased by these. In the case of application (the only thing that can increase the damage dealt), you're talking about what we assume to be around a 30% increase to the base missile stats with stacking penalties. Missiles are still hard capped on their damage so they aren't going to magically crit you for anything more than that.

Basically the only way you're going to get hit for double/triple alpha is if you go from moving to not moving at all in a small ship and they're scripted precision. In which case, far worse will happen to you if you do that to a player using turrets since your size only effects their chance to hit, not their damage like with missiles.


So, there is this lovely concept in real life called time on target. you first fire rounds at high, slow arcs, then progressively faster arcs so you can get multiple rounds on target from a single tube.

Same concept, with the midslot version scripted speed, off for the first volley, one on for the 2nd, and if you are fit for flight time, light 2 more and watch them all hit in a single rep cycle.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#126 - 2015-06-18 06:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Caldari 5
The multiple Alpha thing can already be done to some extent with fast ships and slow missiles, especially if the speed of the ship is the same as the speed of the missiles, although its mostly a suicide run, fly directly at the enemy firing salvos the entire time, although most times you can only get a double alpha and not a triple. I've seen it done to good effect with MJDs, fire salvo MJD towards the enemy, fire slavo both landing at the same time.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#127 - 2015-06-18 06:43:03 UTC
Basically what Caldari said is the only way I see that happening with the very slow, long range missiles. Rate of fire and flight duration typically already make it so only the faster firing launchers can even see two (occasionally a third) flights in the air at the same time. Scripting will not speed them up that much to allow for maybe 3/4 flights out of a few launchers at max range/very fast targets unless the target literally loops back towards you or stopping I cant imagine them hitting in fast enough succession as you suggest. At which point it was pilot error that would cause this, not gaming of a module/mechanic.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#128 - 2015-06-18 07:15:31 UTC
I did not say it was well founded, as I have not done the math all the way out, but it definitely does make it more viable to get double alpha or better volleys.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#129 - 2015-06-18 09:00:21 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Nasar Vyron wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
I am wary of the scripted togglable computer as it seems like a great way to let you do Time on Target salvos for double or triple alpha.


What?

Seriously, I'm trying to figure out what you mean here. It's simply damage application or range that can be increased by these. In the case of application (the only thing that can increase the damage dealt), you're talking about what we assume to be around a 30% increase to the base missile stats with stacking penalties. Missiles are still hard capped on their damage so they aren't going to magically crit you for anything more than that.

Basically the only way you're going to get hit for double/triple alpha is if you go from moving to not moving at all in a small ship and they're scripted precision. In which case, far worse will happen to you if you do that to a player using turrets since your size only effects their chance to hit, not their damage like with missiles.


So, there is this lovely concept in real life called time on target. you first fire rounds at high, slow arcs, then progressively faster arcs so you can get multiple rounds on target from a single tube.

Same concept, with the midslot version scripted speed, off for the first volley, one on for the 2nd, and if you are fit for flight time, light 2 more and watch them all hit in a single rep cycle.


Look up the PzH 2000, they have a system where they fire in increasingly shallower angles to allow several rounds to impact at or around the same time. Very interesting concept and definite tactical advantage if done right. It'd be tough to replicate in Eve, but it could be done as described.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#130 - 2015-06-18 09:59:58 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
I am wary of the scripted togglable computer as it seems like a great way to let you do Time on Target salvos for double or triple alpha.


I'm still not seeing how the scripted computer affects this to the extent that I would be at all worried about it. How are people changing scripts that fast on a 30 second cycle-time module? Each volley of missiles is only going to be affected by status of the missile computer when you hit launch. Switching scripts after you launch a volley will not change the stats for it, nor will a switch have time to have any affect, unless the cycle time of the module is really fast.

Raven w/ three T2 BCU's, all Level V skills, ROF 6.53 seconds, 21 seconds time of flight, w/ 500mn MWD goes 1472 m/s, LMJD cycle time is 9 seconds

Volley 1 - 10,575 m/s times 6.53 seconds = roughly 69km out when second volley is launched, max range 222km
Turn on module as soon as Volley 1 fires, scripted for missile speed (assume 30% bonus to speed)
Volley 2 - 13,747 m/s times 6.53 seconds = roughly 89km out when third volley is launched (first volley is now roughly 138km out), max range roughly 288km
Volley 3 - etc

The only way to get volleys closer is to use your LMJD as soon as the second volley fires and jump towards the enemy. That might give you something approaching the old "cavalry" Raven and get volleys landing close enough to get 3 onto one target.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.