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Rat aggro and warp scramblers.
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#41 - 2015-06-18 01:48:08 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
By the logic of the OP, the rats should have just left 20 minutes ago.

You need to bring a ship equivalent to what the ratters is flying. It's a good mechanic because it promotes fights, not kills.

If you stopped constantly looking for easy kills you might find more fights.

No one should be immune to the environment.


Wait, did you just suggest that since NPC's are acting like players (they are not), they should have warped off once they realized they were losing the fight? That the ratter should have to fit a point to keep them on grid?

People complain on one hand about null sec care bear space being too safe, while disregarding that this is one thing that makes it too safe.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2015-06-18 01:49:04 UTC
From a lore point of view, why would the rats side with you? You could be there to kill them too...
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#43 - 2015-06-18 01:50:10 UTC
Let's get one thing straight: Eve is not about "fair" fights. It is about destroying player built spaceships.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2015-06-18 01:53:14 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Let's get one thing straight: Eve is not about "fair" fights. It is about destroying player built spaceships.



Just quoting this, as it helps to further the point that everything is working as intended.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-06-18 03:49:48 UTC
This...again....


eve had it the other way around and it made for easy pickings as ratter could be pretty much screwed being beat down by rats and the pvp'er. Low grade cheap shot km's really.


the well the enemy of my enemy is my friend bit....not always true. I have had friends farm pve in special ways. As in kill the ratter after they have basically wiped the area. Kill the ratter, kill the few rats left, collect the wrecks and see what they get for a prize after.


that and I said in the last thread like this before....if pirate faction NPC's were like empire faction after 6+ years of shooting them my actions against them would be considered genocidal at this point. I would not just be shoot in sight...I'd be nuke the site from orbit just to be sure shoot on site.

So here is your roleplay. I tackle you in blood space , blood rats go "ITS HIM!!!!!, kill that bastard who has killed millions of our people" and attack me with extreme prejudice. 2 years o f 0.0 almost entirely in blood rat regions....I know they have mad love for me love.

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#46 - 2015-06-18 04:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
haha yeah, so if there is a marauder ratting in the depth of branch, bring your own marauder there if you want that shiny killmail, ez noob lmao, l2p gb2w.

I told you, man 😂get ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.

I stopped solo roams through 0.0 farming grounds the day they changed npc mechanics. yo now need an afk cloaker cyno alt + bunch of dudes on blackops nowadays.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#47 - 2015-06-18 04:12:39 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:


I told you, man 😂get ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.


Ironic.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#48 - 2015-06-18 04:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Robert Caldera wrote:
haha yeah, so if there is a marauder ratting in the depth of branch, bring your own marauder there if you want that shiny killmail, noob lmao.

I told you, man 😂get ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.



About as much as cheap shot artists liked picking off ratters with heavy npc support. Noticed they didn't whine as much during these years. odd that.




PLus some people here replying seem to pvp'ers. I used to be one. these low grade kills I never claimed with any pride. they were crap kills I got to get my checkmark in the I pvp box for the week/month. TBH I preferred meetings on fairer terms. PLayer(s) actually pvp fit (while I felt bad about the sleaziness of it I wasn't nice enough to go you know this guy is kin therm spec in say serp space....I won't shoot for his gaping wide em hole if caldari), not banged up from ratting....and actually wanting to be there to pvp whole heartedly.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#49 - 2015-06-18 04:28:35 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
By the logic of the OP, the rats should have just left 20 minutes ago.

You need to bring a ship equivalent to what the ratters is flying. It's a good mechanic because it promotes fights, not kills.

If you stopped constantly looking for easy kills you might find more fights.

No one should be immune to the environment.


Wait, did you just suggest that since NPC's are acting like players (they are not), they should have warped off once they realized they were losing the fight? That the ratter should have to fit a point to keep them on grid?

People complain on one hand about null sec care bear space being too safe, while disregarding that this is one thing that makes it too safe.


No, I am highlighting the absurdity of the OP complaining that rats don't act according to his logic. If they behaved rationally they would have left as soon as the fight went south. Even with a point you could not get them all, and after proving they will never break your tank they should just leave.

Rats are part of the environment. That's why they call it PvE. No one should be immune to the environment. Fit to survive in your hunting grounds, or die horribly for being unprepared, just like the guys you hunt.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#50 - 2015-06-18 04:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
yep, plant a cloaky cyno bomber alt in system and get some friends in BO if yo want the ratter dead, thats the style of play ccp wants you to follow. solo roaming was too easy.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-06-18 04:39:38 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
haha yeah, so if there is a marauder ratting in the depth of branch, bring your own marauder there if you want that shiny killmail, ez noob lmao, l2p gb2w.

I told you, man 😂get ready for worst trashtalk replies here, people love npc protecting them.

I stopped solo roams through 0.0 farming grounds the day they changed npc mechanics. yo now need an afk cloaker cyno alt + bunch of dudes on blackops nowadays.


You wouldn't have been able to kill a marauder solo in any ship that couldn't tank the rats to begin with...

I would also argue that you have been using NPCs as added damage, webs, neuts, and scrams for years...
Now that there's a chance you might get shot, you tear up all over the forums about it....

2 years ago (or however long) you would have posted a comment on a thread complaining about gankers using NPCs to assist dps by saying something along the lines of.
"Haha, silly carebear... L2P or GTFO"

So, why are you here crying about the very same thing that you likely told them to quit crying about?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-06-18 04:41:51 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
yep, plant a cloaky cyno bomber alt in system and get some friends in BO if yo want the ratter dead, thats the style of play ccp wants you to follow. solo roaming was too easy.


If you can't fit a ship capable of taking down a player, simply because NPCs are attacking you, then you're playing the wrong game...
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#53 - 2015-06-18 04:57:57 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


If you can't fit a ship capable of taking down a player, simply because NPCs are attacking you, then you're playing the wrong game...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5827636#post5827636
Grinder2210
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-06-18 05:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grinder2210
Kitty Bear wrote:
The NPC's don't care.
They are not your friend, you are not their friend for shooting the same target as them.

You are an easier to kill threat that is doing lots of damage
I'm sure you can work out the NPC aggression mechanics from that.
If you can't .. I suggest you do some more research, and educate yourself.



In short, it's not getting fixed
because it's not broken.



Start with best line ever for this post why dont you Smile


The NPC dont care Whan in fact the NPC's do care that the intire problem being pointed out in the post

They are mission rats We are human players no matter what we are doing in eve the NPC shouldnt be giveing one side or another any sort of advantage or disadvantage
NPC's should be working the same way not matter what mod are on your ship No matter what your doing. Jumping agro is fine, However we the human player shouldnt at anypoint be capable of control over said Jump

Oh and to the people saying Oh but there pve ships ...You fit your ship you flew it out you knew were you are and the risks you are takeing
You in fact had the exact same lvl of control over that situation as the Combat pilot shooting you

Balance is needed here
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#55 - 2015-06-18 05:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Grinder2210 wrote:

They are mission rats We are human players no matter what we are doing in eve the NPC shouldnt be giveing one side or another any sort of advantage or disadvantage


the only reason why you were ever able to engage and score such a kill in the past in a pvp ship even remotely capable of surviuving a trip into deep enemy territory (ratting backwaters), before npc changes, was NPC keeping aggro on the ratter. Yeah, thats the way CCPs weird game worked, if you like it or not.. CCP ruined this sick kind of balance.

You would never expect to bring anything non-cloaky, non-nano, better tanked than the ratter himself DPS ship, so possibly a marauder or faction battleship into those regions by yourself and survive the trip, not getting caught and ganked 5j into 0.0. Thats not how the game worked, but this is exactly what you need today if you wanted to do it (without a cloaking cyno alt camping ratting systems for days + gang of black ops).
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#56 - 2015-06-18 05:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Grinder2210 wrote:
NPC's should be working the same way not matter what mod are on your ship No matter what your doing. Jumping agro is fine, However we the human player shouldnt at anypoint be capable of control over said Jump



You really should look into what balance actually means. It's the environment. It works according to the same rules for both players. We can not alter those rules in any way, but we can control our own actions.

You don't need a maurader to kill a maurader- they rely on local active tanks, makeing them pretty vulnerable to energy neutralizers. Most are even kind enough to tackle themselves. You do need a ship that can survive the space it's sitting in.

The only people that think the only way to get a fight in this game is by using a afk camping cloak ship + cyno are the same crying gankbears who thought it was fair play to scram and neut a ratter in a ship with no guns and no tank
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-06-18 05:27:23 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Grinder2210 wrote:

They are mission rats We are human players no matter what we are doing in eve the NPC shouldnt be giveing one side or another any sort of advantage or disadvantage


the only reason why you were ever able to engage and score such a kill in the past in a pvp ship even remotely capable of surviuving a trip into deep enemy territory (ratting backwaters), before npc changes, was NPC keeping aggro on the ratter. Yeah, thats the way CCPs weird game worked, if you like it or not..
You would never expect to bring anything non-cloaky, non-nano, better tanked than the ratter himself DPS ship, so possibly a marauder or faction battleship into those regions by yourself and survive the trip, not getting caught and ganked 5j into 0.0. Thats not how the game worked, but this is exactly what you need today if you wanted to do it (without a cloaking cyno alt camping ratting systems for days + gang of black ops).



How did the ratter manage to get his ship out there then?

Look, everything that has been suggested as to why this is broken are very literally all things that ratters have done.
They've been forced to tank NPCs and gankers, they've taken their ships through low and null, they've gotten away from people, they've been caught by people and basically everything else that the ganker has had to deal with.
They've likely been caught and gotten away from people in battleships.

The only problem I see here is that someone is upset because they can't kill a BS with a bomber due to the rats...
Here's a thought, in what pvp scenario would the bomber be able to solo a pvp fitted BS?

As I have mentioned, many sites are not doable with a fit built for viable pvp...
Just as pvp is not doable in a viable pve fit..

If you want to take the challenge, then fit for it.

That, or drop a bubble at the station/gate and catch him when he leaves..
Or can you not beat them without the added NPCs?
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#58 - 2015-06-18 05:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Mike Voidstar wrote:

The only people that think the only way to get a fight in this game


I responded to a guy all the time, who thinks eve is about fight. /o\


Joe Risalo wrote:

How did the ratter manage to get his ship out there then?

he lived there? In safety of 20k blob of other people around him, he was part of?

Joe Risalo wrote:

Look, everything that has been suggested as to why this is broken are very literally all things that ratters have done.
They've been forced to tank NPCs and gankers

which was fine if they got caught despite of all the tools and means around them to their advantage - vs. some little guy in a squishy ship who managed to evade gatecamps and other kind of threats alone vs. said blob.

Joe Risalo wrote:

, they've taken their ships through low and null, they've gotten away from people, they've been caught by people and basically everything else that the ganker has had to deal with.
They've likely been caught and gotten away from people in battleships.

more like they've shipped their stuff down there with a jump freighter/carrier, like everyone else?

Joe Risalo wrote:

The only problem I see here is that someone is upset because they can't kill a BS with a bomber due to the rats...
Here's a thought, in what pvp scenario would the bomber be able to solo a pvp fitted BS?

the problem what I see is that CCP practically removed (for idiots, read: they made it so hard that its not viable or realistic anymore) a whole huge branch of pvp, tons of people were kept busy with since tranq went live.

A bomber was never able to take down a properly fitted pvp ship, right.
But on the other hand, the ease of effortless slaughtering thousands of NPC in a pve boat for ISK was the same ease for a bomber pilot to gank said pve boat. That was kind of balance there, CCP destroyed.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-06-18 06:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tabyll Altol
Wrong post
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-06-18 09:06:29 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
I'm not sure how they should deal with rat aggro in these situations but it's odd that rats pour their damage onto the player who's killing the guy that's mass murdering them.

There are ways to deal with it but so what? You could double the HP on freighters and there would still be ways to kill them. That doesn't mean it's balanced.

Calling the rat behavior player emulation is also a bit silly. If a fleet of players were being successfully solo'd by a single enemy they wouldn't switch aggro to the guy that arrives that has a good chance of killing their enemy.

Since the rats don't provide much risk to the ratter itself, the rats effectively act as an NPC security force for a human player while running sites and missions. That's no good. Try to imagine if rats started successfully stopping ganks in highsec mining belts. NPC involvement in player affairs should be minimized when possible.


Some NPC's now use a watered down version of the sleeper aggression mechanic


High Priority
E-War activation
Remote Rep activation
Damage (to npc)

Medium Priority
Hull size difference


The flip side to the "npc's as security" is the OP expecting npc's to add to his DPS
and then crying because they didn't


All he had to do was not activate that e-war module
and he would probably have been fine