Wormholes

It just occurred to me that this is going to affect fleets warping to combat and fleets warping away from combat unequally. It will be possible to fleet warp to a moon, which although not as good as actually warping into the shield is pretty good because of POS defenses whike the hunter will not be able to fleet warp to the prey. I would be much happier if this proposal were either not done at all or if it trashed fleet warp in its entireity. The removing some uses but not others seems very klunky.

Most of the points have been spelled out pretty well already.

Again this is a change that hurts the smaller groups way harder.
Not a problem for papa goon where you pay your rattingtax via paplinks. Instead of 150 pilots in the "misc"-fleets (bombers and celestris mostly, exactly these things that are the reason BS or sniperfleets mostly suck) there will be only 140 and 10 mobile bookmarks with a pulse.
For a 30 man fleet 3-5 bookmarkers are a good number, stripping it of up to 10% of the dps.
And a 6 man fleet that now needs 3 instead of 1 or 2 scanners that is huge.

It adds a timesink to wormholetravel. On paper adding 20 secs waitingtime to each worp isn´t that much, but it feels horrible. Remember the feeling when you sit on a hole waiting for the targets to warp to a site? It will be like that just once per system you travel trough. And it can easily add up to 2-3 minutes aka half a siegecycle.

"you only need one more scout with your fleet " Unless they are semicompetent and have scouts themselves and warp to their way home. Right now you can fleetwarp there and catch them on the hole, without fleetwarp that is completely impossible.

The notion this change will do anything to nerf the highest WH-incomes aka escalations by CCP Larkin is strange. You will just be warping in the capitals a few seconds before the lokis. It is not like the capitals can´t tank the site for the extratime. For the hunters it will add a few seconds for the suicidescanner eigher to land on grid or a unbonused dictor to get to 100%.
But trying to catch mobile ships, good luck with that, a cloaked scout can´t use propmods and a frigate will be popped in less than 20 secs by most rattingsetups or the rats when it activates its point.
Not to forget that we now have mobile depots so most ratters will just refit WCSs and no single tacker can do anything about that.

"Just put a cloaky on grid with them"
- Adds more time for the targets to smell something is up, most sites are littered with orbiting rats, gasclouds, asteroids, wrecks being dragged by tractorunits and LCOs. Not to forget the bug when sleepers shoot cloaked ships and so uncloaking them.

For fleetcombat it is horrible since ships have different warpspeeds. This will not lead to more BS use but more T3s. Totally ok for me with that ribbonprice being in the dumbster anyways, but not a positiv change for differenciating warfare. Not to forget navigationskill also effect warpspeed turning a cool-looking, uniform fleetwarp into a nice on-by-one killmail delivery service.
Plus we now have RLMLs that murder fasttackle like nothing else.

I can barely thing of any fleetcomp that will really benefit from this change, but several which will just become more useless.
Midscalekiting will love this, there are so little mordus or guristaships in use right now.

Another thing some old players might still remember how to do fleetwarps with tacklers dying instantly: Dropping cans all over the place. Also wrecks are also warpable, so that focus you want to put on tacklers will consist of "drop stuff all over the grid or make a wreck nice and close to the enemy". Much fun, such wow.

I think what this actually comes down to is not that the fleet warp change itself is bad, it's that the bookmark mechanics are bad.
If CCP added alliance and fleet level bookmark systems, along with a sync button on the BM screens that would instantly sync an individual's bookmarks without needing to wait 5min for the auto sync, then this change would be generally applauded.

In its current state, the bookmark system just does not and cannot provide an acceptable substitute for the fleet warp mechanic.
As such, at least squad warp needs to remain.

how about somewhere in the middle. remove wing/fleet warps and keep squad warps...

OR

Make alliance bookmarks or the concept with the mailing list thing

Just adding my two cents.

If your goal, as stated, is to put control into the hands of individual pilots then keeping fleet warp in, in any form, is probably not going to solve your problem. EVE players are, if anything, resourceful in working around mechanics to achieve their optimal result.

• Leaving fleet warp to a member - People will put a cloaky scout/target at the location desired and warp the entire fleet to them
• Fast propagating bookmarks - People will use bookmarks and warp the entire fleet to them

Even the squad warp idea, while a nice compromise, does not affect groups smaller than 10 and in many situations, especially manual multi-boxers, this will result in no change. I suspect that the manual multiboxer whether bombing, ratting, mining or whatever is a behind the scenes intended target of this change.

While probably not desired, even by myself, it seems logical to me that you should remove fleet warp altogether if these are your intended goals. In order to do this, however, you would need to

1. Have fast propagating bookmarks - People will need targets to warp to and bookmarks are a must have here
2. Alliance level bookmakrs -Alliances of smaller corporations need a way to coordinate
3. Broadcast warp to - NPSI and ad-hoc fleets will also need this
4. Tunable warp speed - Ships will need a way other than doing timing calculations to coordinate warp-ins so that faster ships aren't left out to dry.

Because I doubt that the above features are in any way in the pipe, I would offer that the suggestion to limit fleet-warp to squads is the best solution on the table currently. Much like drone assist, it limits the impact of the fleet warp to a small unit, puts control into the hands of more people, and gives you time to deal with the above features if desired.

There is always this NPSI reference ... but actually I can remember only very few situations where a fleet was warped to a bookmark, even traveling wormholes. Instead (cepter) scouts provide warp-ins, burn perches, tackle stuff, provide a (rolling) safe ... 99% of the time. Also in big NPSI fleets you have a lot of people not traveling with the crowd, but independently scouting, searching targets, etc. NPSI is not traveling from A to B to kill a POS and then back from B to A. I think NPSI is least affected by this change.

if you look, I also mentioned fleet level bookmarks.
ie: members of a fleet should be able to make bookmarks that only other fleet members can see and that go away once the fleet is disbanded.

My experience comes from 50+ fleets with Spectre, Bombers Bar, RvG Ganked, Stille Gewalt, and some else. What happens is that the FC sends a couple of ceptor scouts +1 +2, if gate is clear the FC fleet warps gate to gate. If there is a bubble or something we can't take, the question who has a tactical or safe or can burn one is usually promptly answered by a "www" in fleet chat and again fleet warp. Alternative, fleet warping to some public location first. There is also the occasional free burn to target at best speed, which needs no fleet warp. Also there are a lot of people helping out the newbros in such fleets, so that nobody is left behind if he takes a minimum attention. If somebody is lost, he gets a target system and a warp-in from a fleet-mate, just ask in fleet chat for help. Traversing wormhole chains and finding wormholes is done by fleet members with probes, providing warp ins for the first one, then passing that role to somebody next etc. Again fleet warp or free burn. Even in prepared bomb runs, people positioning at the bookmarks and distribute those to the fleet. Etc. pp.

However what is hampered by this change is, probing out and tackle fleets on safes, catching signature-optimized boosters, and the quick fleet positioning on a known grid with tactical bookmarks, e.g. around a capital station.

I think you'll find it is.

OMG, CCP really pulling out the stops to break this game....

What are they thinking.. This will have a mega impact in W-Space...

Can u guys at CCP go back to working on walking thru stations and leave the proper game alone......