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Big Patches

First post First post
Author
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-06-16 16:08:50 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
are CCP...you do realize CCP is ONE corporation, singular, so it's IS CCP, not ARE CCP? I hope so! Big smile

It's a British convention to pluralize corporation names. So saying "CCP are releasing..." is the proper way to state it. This stems from considering the corporation to be a collection of multiple people - it's a collective noun which can be singular or plural depending on where you grew up. Singular in America, plural in Britain.

Similarly, color vs colour. Aluminum vs aluminium. Etc.
Ah, but that's ridiculous! There is, for instance, a team. One team. So, you'd say Manchester United ARE? However, there are members of the team, they're plural. The members of Manchester United are....the team IS. There aren't two Manchester Uniteds, are/is/am there? You see where the trouble lies with this "convention" that seems to have grown up from nowhere...I hope.

Oh, and I hasten to add, "corporation" is a word to signify a company is "a body" - singular, root "corp" as in corpus delecti. The very meaning of the word corporation is defeated by pretending it's plural because there are people in corporations. It doesn't refer to the people in the organization. It refers to how the organization has organized itself, and to pluralize it is to lose this meaning entirely. This logic would also apply to the word "team".

generator - dynamo?


Would the typical American say "My family is gathering in Philadelphia, and I'm preparing a Thanksgiving feast for it." It's just a single family, after all. But no, they'd likely say "for them." So even as Americans, many pluralize nouns considered as singular.

Similarly, if you played for the Chicago Blackhawks, you might tell your wife "The team is coming over tonight to celebrate winning the Stanley Cup, and they are bringing beer."

From the original article I posted:
Quote:
It's plausible to argue that verb-agreement number and pronoun number should logically be the same within a given passage (the AHD says "construction", but this seems to be a matter of gradient salience, not grammatical principle). However, Norma Loquendi doesn't agree with this notion, no matter how logical it may seem, and my intuitive reactions are with her. In such a case, we have a choice: logic or custom? elite theory or common practice? rational reconstruction or spontaneous order? I'll stand with Hayek in siding with the spontaneous order of common practice, whose logic is usually more subtle and effective than some armchair expert's superficial rationalization.


Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#22 - 2015-06-16 16:09:29 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
cpu939 wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
This is the way things are going to stay.

It's not about CCP doing smaller changes. It's about CCP releasing stuff when it's done, rather than going for artificial deadlines.

If a change will take 6 months, it can take those 6 months. and if it isn't quite ready for that release, it can be pushed off until the next one, rather than being a year later.
This.

The release cycle, 5 weeks (as opposed to 6 months before), does not entail that all development must fit within 5 weeks. It simply means that every 5 weeks there is an opportunity to release the features the development teams have been working on for various lengths of time. I cover this in detail in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMmy3Zitc9I


it would be good if they waited till things where fully test like the entosis link, did you guys know if you entosis your own station you need ccp to fix it?

one would have figured ccp wouldn't let you turn off your own station services
Why would you turn off your own station services? ;)

The bug reporting system is here: https://community.eveonline.com/support/bug-reports/


never under (or is this over?) estimate your user base. welcome to the world of software development P

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#23 - 2015-06-16 16:57:29 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
cpu939 wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
This is the way things are going to stay.

It's not about CCP doing smaller changes. It's about CCP releasing stuff when it's done, rather than going for artificial deadlines.

If a change will take 6 months, it can take those 6 months. and if it isn't quite ready for that release, it can be pushed off until the next one, rather than being a year later.
This.

The release cycle, 5 weeks (as opposed to 6 months before), does not entail that all development must fit within 5 weeks. It simply means that every 5 weeks there is an opportunity to release the features the development teams have been working on for various lengths of time. I cover this in detail in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMmy3Zitc9I


it would be good if they waited till things where fully test like the entosis link, did you guys know if you entosis your own station you need ccp to fix it?

one would have figured ccp wouldn't let you turn off your own station services
Why would you turn off your own station services? ;)

The bug reporting system is here: https://community.eveonline.com/support/bug-reports/



Why would you turn off your own station services? Because this is eve. There should be opportunities for skulduggery. You can now blow up your corps/alliances stuff, so it makes sense that in the future you should be able to entosis it to.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#24 - 2015-06-16 17:00:56 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Otso Bakarti wrote:
are CCP...you do realize CCP is ONE corporation, singular, so it's IS CCP, not ARE CCP? I hope so! Big smile

It's a British convention to pluralize corporation names. So saying "CCP are releasing..." is the proper way to state it. This stems from considering the corporation to be a collection of multiple people - it's a collective noun which can be singular or plural depending on where you grew up. Singular in America, plural in Britain.

Similarly, color vs colour. Aluminum vs aluminium. Etc.
"... can not even comprehend the wonders of English ... but the Americans are worst of all because they speak it wrong." - Ogden Nash.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-06-16 17:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kestral Anneto
Ok, grammar aside, (btw, im british, we invented the language, take from that what you will.), CCP are still having deadlines out of thin air. Why 5/6 weeks? why wait for the next 5/6 window to release if its not ready? why not just release as and when it's ready?
If before, when they were on a more traditional release cycle, they couldn't get organised and sort their stuff out, that is their look out and poor planning, if they cannot organise themselve withing the space of 6 MONTHS, as in half a year, so get done what they planned to do, head should roll, its simple.
Their is a valid argument about having it a bite at a time, however, like I said it seems like nothing is happening, things like the jump changes (whoever OK'd that idea needs to be fired, fatigue for pushing button to start the jump drive? really?) should have come at the same time as the sov changes. They entire objective was to shake up null, so why give it in little bits? thats not going to shake up anything.
If its down to the story (drifters, poor excuse for bringing in the entosis link, by the way) there is not stopping them doing the smaller patches for that kind of thing (story), but actual changes to the way the game is played, should come in big chucks, to my way of thinking.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#26 - 2015-06-16 17:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
"... can not even comprehend the wonders of English ... but the Americans are worst of all because they speak it wrong." - Ogden Nash.

"Look, lady, I only speak two languages: English and bad English!" - Corbin Dallas
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#27 - 2015-06-16 17:44:03 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, grammar aside, (btw, im british, we invented the language, take from that what you will.), CCP are still having deadlines out of thin air. Why 5/6 weeks? why wait for the next 5/6 window to release if its not ready? why not just release as and when it's ready?
If before, when they were on a more traditional release cycle, they couldn't get organised and sort their stuff out, that is their look out and poor planning, if they cannot organise themselve withing the space of 6 MONTHS, as in half a year, so get done what they planned to do, head should roll, its simple.
Their is a valid argument about having it a bite at a time, however, like I said it seems like nothing is happening, things like the jump changes (whoever OK'd that idea needs to be fired, fatigue for pushing button to start the jump drive? really?) should have come at the same time as the sov changes. They entire objective was to shake up null, so why give it in little bits? thats not going to shake up anything.
If its down to the story (drifters, poor excuse for bringing in the entosis link, by the way) there is not stopping them doing the smaller patches for that kind of thing (story), but actual changes to the way the game is played, should come in big chucks, to my way of thinking.



'on track, on track, on track, bug appears which derails things, because it's deeply embedded in the data structure': It happens. Even with the best planning, it happens. Or you lose half a dev team to sickness, hangovers and other game companies, derailing things as you bring people up to speed. That is why you have schedule slippage, and only a moron doesn't accept it.

Now, schedule slippage, with a 6 month release schedule, is really bad. Because one feature could cause delays on so many other things. With the shorter cycle, you just roll out the other bits, and wait for the next window for the delayed feature.

As for 'why have release windows', there's this little thing called integration testing which needs to happen. Where you get features developed by different teams, and integrate them down onto the same release. This can break things. So doing it willy nilly is a bad idea. Doing it on a regular schedule works.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#28 - 2015-06-16 17:47:39 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
cpu939 wrote:
it would be good if they waited till things where fully test like the entosis link, did you guys know if you entosis your own station you need ccp to fix it?

one would have figured ccp wouldn't let you turn off your own station services
Why would you turn off your own station services? ;)


Don't worry Explorer, if it weren't for the likes of some people, the guys who get paid to make warning signs would be out of work.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#29 - 2015-06-16 18:01:49 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, grammar aside, (btw, im british, we invented the language, take from that what you will.),

Can't really say English was invented, more like it just happened.
Kestral Anneto wrote:

If its down to the story (drifters, poor excuse for bringing in the entosis link, by the way) there is not stopping them doing the smaller patches for that kind of thing (story), but actual changes to the way the game is played, should come in big chucks, to my way of thinking.

Perhaps one's view on 'content patches' depends to some degree on how you play the game.
I'd still like to know why you feel it should come in large chunks.
Dunkle Lars
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2015-06-16 19:46:45 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:

one would have figured ccp wouldn't let you turn off your own station services
Why would you turn off your own station services? ;)

The bug reporting system is here: https://community.eveonline.com/support/bug-reports/
[/quote]


Why wouldn't I turn off my own station service? It's your job to give us all the tools to f... each other up Big smile
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-06-17 07:19:47 UTC
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
Ok, grammar aside, (btw, im british, we invented the language, take from that what you will.),

Can't really say English was invented, more like it just happened.
Kestral Anneto wrote:

If its down to the story (drifters, poor excuse for bringing in the entosis link, by the way) there is not stopping them doing the smaller patches for that kind of thing (story), but actual changes to the way the game is played, should come in big chucks, to my way of thinking.

Perhaps one's view on 'content patches' depends to some degree on how you play the game.
I'd still like to know why you feel it should come in large chunks.


evolved would probably be a better way of describing it.

Well, I build a lot of thing, mine a lot of rocks and try to get in on as many fleets as I can. As for why, there's a few reasons, I think EvE has started being dumbed down to apease people with short attention spans (CoD-crowd). The industury changes show that and the fact that the patches are no smaller and more often confirm it, as if they came out in one big chuck would be to much for us, so CCP spoon feed it a little at a time.
Another reason, like I said earlier, is the fact that stuff now takes multiple patches to impliment, so the game gives an impression (we know its not) that its spinning it wheels. I agree a 6 month cycle woulf be too long, so why not switch to a 3 month cycle? Then, when a patch lands, you can say, look at all this! look at X, Y, Z! Rather than a patch that only adds seekers (not a patch to me) or a patch that adds drifters etc etc.
I mean, I look back and watch the trailers for the big patches back in the day, and it was something to get excited about, now it just another patch, with barely anything in it, or very ill though out ideas (FozzieSov, motherload of bad ideas) there is nothing that brings the awe to EvE.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2015-06-17 08:56:11 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
From my understanding of what CCP are currently doing with patches, is that they are doing small and often, rather than big and slow.
To me, this seems to give the impression that the game is spinning its wheels, ok, we DO have features coming out (FozzieSov etc) but they are so diluted it seems like nothing is changing.
After the current cycle of rapid releases is done, are CCP going back to a traditional model? As in, we'll get a patch, and rather than 1 ship in it, its got an entire line of ships, or a new feature like PI, or some new stuff?
I understand the need for the changes that are being made, but to me, it would make more sense to release it in one go, rather than staggering it.


deadlines are bullshit, releasing stuff when ist done is the way to go... its much better like this
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#33 - 2015-06-17 10:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Explorer wrote:
Why would you turn off your own station services? ;)

The bug reporting system is here: https://community.eveonline.com/support/bug-reports/

Because only one link can effect the service at a time. If I am using the link, then an invader cannot shut down the service. This buys time for a corpmate to come on-line and kill the invader.

But what that means is I would expect that I, as the station owner, would be supporting the service with my link, not shutting it down.

Until I tried it and shut down the service.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#34 - 2015-06-17 13:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
4 new destroyers added during 1 year look like decent content update for a game with ~$70M income. Money well spent.

p.s. I've forgot - there was also Thera. Apparently it's very interesting and popular - to the point where people don't remember it.
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2015-06-17 14:19:08 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
From my understanding of what CCP are currently doing with patches, is that they are doing small and often, rather than big and slow.
To me, this seems to give the impression that the game is spinning its wheels, ok, we DO have features coming out (FozzieSov etc) but they are so diluted it seems like nothing is changing.
After the current cycle of rapid releases is done, are CCP going back to a traditional model? As in, we'll get a patch, and rather than 1 ship in it, its got an entire line of ships, or a new feature like PI, or some new stuff?
I understand the need for the changes that are being made, but to me, it would make more sense to release it in one go, rather than staggering it.



I do miss the big content releases, just feels like mini updates now and nothing to get excited about

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-06-17 15:03:15 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
From my understanding of what CCP are currently doing with patches, is that they are doing small and often, rather than big and slow.
To me, this seems to give the impression that the game is spinning its wheels, ok, we DO have features coming out (FozzieSov etc) but they are so diluted it seems like nothing is changing.
After the current cycle of rapid releases is done, are CCP going back to a traditional model? As in, we'll get a patch, and rather than 1 ship in it, its got an entire line of ships, or a new feature like PI, or some new stuff?
I understand the need for the changes that are being made, but to me, it would make more sense to release it in one go, rather than staggering it.



I do miss the big content releases, just feels like mini updates now and nothing to get excited about


^^^this^^
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-06-18 00:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Marech Bhayanaka
Kestral Anneto wrote:
so the game gives an impression (we know its not) that its spinning it wheels.


You keep saying that, but I must say I do not agree. I think Eve has changed tremendously for the better in recent times.

And release schedules are chosen for more than cosmetic reasons. Smaller, "when done", patches are easier to manage, easier to deliver with some consistency, and easier to QA. That ultimately means a better experience for all of us.

Marech.
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#38 - 2015-06-18 03:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Garamonde
Kestral Anneto wrote:
so the game gives an impression (we know its not) that its spinning it wheels.


I, for one, prefer small, gradual changes rather than nerfing a ship or two into oblivion, and tossing off the game balance.
Or half-finished features that will never go anywhere because certain gamers don't like change.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-06-18 07:40:02 UTC
I like the frequent patches if only because CCP thinks it's better for the company.
Something has been lost in the infrequent large patches however in that historically there was a great deal of hype leading up to each patch and in a small way it was almost as if a new Eve was being released.
Really it was like free advertising once a year and I think drew in a lot of new players.

Hopefully somehow CCP can recapture the lost publicity. I do think the 07 show is a good start.
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-06-18 07:44:24 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
I like the frequent patches if only because CCP thinks it's better for the company.
Something has been lost in the infrequent large patches however in that historically there was a great deal of hype leading up to each patch and in a small way it was almost as if a new Eve was being released.
Really it was like free advertising once a year and I think drew in a lot of new players.

Hopefully somehow CCP can recapture the lost publicity. I do think the 07 show is a good start.


well, its the trailers that did it for me, you cant make the awesome trailers that they used to, when the big patches had content, when the patches have bugger all in them to show off.