Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So let's talk local intel. (Dodges Bricks)

I'll get to it: the idea is not to remove local, but rather make it more dynamic. The changes I propose are as follows:

1) A player is not detected in local until they fire their warp drive (not mwd/mjd). Not 'attempting' to warp (alignment) but actually entering warp. They are then displayed until they leave the system...or:
2) A player that activates a cloaking module (any), is removed from local. Warping again will result in being added back.
3) warping while cloaked (covert ops) will not trigger local radar.
4) Portal Jumps (to a cyno) are not logged in local - only the cyno's location, as normal, is. Covert cynos function as normal also.

So these changes result in local being much sketchier on intel without being entirely without. A high-slot will have to be given up by those who want to 'hunt' a system by not being detected - they warp to their corner/safe, they pulse the cloak, and then wait for their prey. Covops fleets will be able to move with impunity...except Blops, which don't use covert cloaks. They will log in local as players as soon as they warp. Keep that in mind.

For cynos, jumping a fleet in won't spike local - until you actually move said fleet via warp. This is a reduction in intel - a defender/attacker doesn't know how big the enemy fleet is, only that a cyno was lit up. Unless they jump on grid, all you know is that a cyno was lit. Compared to current mechanics, what you're losing is the intel regarding WHO and HOW MANY jumped in, but not 'what' as local doesn't say that now.

So just D-Scan them, right? Unless they all light up a cloaking module right there, a dscan will answer that pretty quickly anyways. What if they are beyond D-Scan range? Suck it up and get some probes out there...we all know how this goes, nothing new.

Let's change D-Scan. (Dodges chairs)

1) D-Scan Range now affected by angle.
- 360 = 15 AU
- 180 = 20 AU
- 90 = 30 AU
- 60 = 45 AU
- 30 = 75 AU
- 15 = 125 AU

That's quite a buff to D-Scan...or is it? The more focused the D-Scan is, the further it sees. That cyno and its fleet then is easy to spot - line up 30 or 15 and scan! But what about other cases: pirates or FW for example.

A miner watching for pirates will have almost no luck detecting a pirate that is sitting at a safe 50 AU away - they'd have to aim the 30 and hope they see him. Pirate Joe used a cloak too to wipe his local sig...so the miner doesn't actually know if anyone is there. He must simply assume there is. The pirate can see the miner just fine though - he scanned all the celestials with ease. He doesn't see the anti-pirate though, also watching the miner, because he was in the system before the pirate.

A) Miner knows that two people - one of them a criminal - has entered the system in the last five minutes. He doesn't know if they are still there. All he can do is align and pray he gets home. Like usual.
B) Pirate knows where miner is (and thus his presence) but doesn't know about anti-pirate.
C) Anti-pirate knows about miner, knows a criminal entered the system. The pirate COULD be gone, or he may still be there hunting the miner. He doesn't have a way to verify without probes so he watches D-Scan of miner.
D) None of them know that a nullsec fleet with probes already found pirate and antipirate because they were busy watching miner at 30 degrees and didn't see the probes.

Oops.

I've always preferred that the only thing that triggers a local update is jumping into a system via stargate or interacting with a station, so WHs, Cynos, and to remove a person from local they have to log in a station or jump through any stargate so if they leave via WH and don't take a gate they appear there until they log off

the whole reason you want this to happen is just to get the jump on people and have cyno alts around to jump you while not being detected.
1) I don't mind not being detected immediately by local when you enter a system and are under gate cloak, but not being detected by local until you warp makes no sense. Scouts on gates would be undetectable, and when cloaked, untraceable. If anything make 1 min after you enter enter system or when you engage warp NOT WHEN YOU ENTER WARP.
2)/3) this ties with cyno alts you want to warp in undetected and get the surprise attack in on the unsuspecting. Removing people from Local while cloaked is absurdly broken to start.

Even if people invade via jump bridge, defenders are most likely unprepared and would struggle to get ships together to counter, in the off chance they are prepared the invading fleet would still have the first strike.

My thoughts are that Local is not that great of an intel tool that people make it out to be. Sure, you can at any time see how many are in system with you, what their name is, how they look like, and their current allignment againts you. That is what you get at a glance. Any other information you have to dig up.

The crucial bit in that is the last one. You can instantly see what standing any entering player, or current player in system with you, has towards you in one of three different colours. Blue (ally), grey (neutral) and red (enemy). Remove that and you are effectively removing local as an early warning system, while it can still function as a sosial interaction tool.

In terms of D-scan, I don't use it enough to make any real opinion. Having the range increase while the "field of view" decrease seems fair. Kinda like a sniper using a scope vs. not using a scope.

What I would really like to see being implemented with the cloak is a passive / active system. The passive system would "hide" the ship from other players HUD and grant immunity from D-scan. But your ship can be probed, and if they spot your ship on grid they can target you as normal (I don't know how many consider it, but a frigate is really small. Without any sort of visual indication actually spotting one is slim to none, especially since most players, to my experience, plays "zoomed out"). You will also be revealed if you target the other player.

If you activate the cloak, you become invisible for a time. If you are using any non cov-ops ships, you will not be able to move while the cloak is active. Cov-ops ships will have a certain amount of mobility. Meaning here that the cloak, used actively, will become a defensive module.

I also think you should be able to sneak into a system. If you gain entry to a system without the use of a gate, then you should not count towards the total sum of players in that system, until you take an interactive action. The first warp after entering, should not count as an interactive action. Activating any module or using the D-scan counts as an interactive action. The tricky bit here I suppose is how to implement it.

These are my thougts. On the whole they tend to be not very popular thoughts, but I like to think they are different since most other suggestions to local is a delay of that instant early warning. And everyone else is like, don't toutch mah cloak!

My very last thougt is that, while it is not exclusively centered around the local vs. cloak debate, be prepared to have this thread derailed and / or closed. My suggestion is to look through your proposal a few more times, clean it up a little and, if this gets closed, repost it in the afk cloak sticky. It is always good to get more opinions on this matter.

Huh, I did not know that! Definitely a dev problem above this discussion, but thanks for the info!

If it did help, increments of 100km would make much more sense as that is talking 'grid' units effectively.

All great points, let me address some...

First, while these changes have an impact on afk cloaking it isn't along the lines of the usual debate. I actually could care less about that debate (and I also think most folks involved in the matter feel the same too). Anyways, afk cloaking effectively ceases to exist - you wouldn't be in local because you're cloaked.

If you DO want to 'terrorize' someone with intel, don't cloak and warp around (which I think is a totally viable tactic)...exact same effect. For those who do pursue this method of disruption through fear, that's all you gotta do. Warp, cloak. Wait a bit. Warp, cloak. It'll **** miners or whoever off - or they'll bring defenses and you're wasting your time...or getting them to commit more resources for a stealth attack to target. Good either way. Enough on that. Short of it, the whole system proposed in OP is to introduce more 'assumptions', which lead to mistakes as well as clever tactics, both good for the game.

Cloaking modules work in and of themselves just fine. D-Scan needs to be able to detect ships not cloaked, regardless of type or what it's doing. D-Scan is a critical tool in EvE (and a well designed one for the most part). Its an active intel gathering tool. The intel it gives is well balanced - you know what, but not who, and without additional measurements, you don't really know where or how far. This is good.

As far as these changes go, the main goal is to not render local useless but rather transform it into a tool of intel that can be twisted and toyed with to the benefit of those wise enough to use it. Defenders can lay traps, attackers can stage spoofs on enemies, covert ops fleets gain more movement without gaining dmg and such, and cloaking modules as a whole become much more useful.

In a nutshell, the changes are intended to foster more conflict and daring FCs. Local in its current form incentivizes docking up - you know you're outnumbered just by looking at local. A big fleet should have the opportunity to clock a small, uninformed fleet. Likewise, a small fleet ought to be able to get the drop on a big opponent's assets through some careful planning and good intel gathering.

Yeah, I like R&K. They do their work properly.

AFK cloaking - I'm not sure there is a problem when the concept can't even exist under these mechanics. Again, if someone wants to use the tactic all they have to do is warp around. They won't be probed down doing so. If someone wants to collect intel quietly and undetected, they can do so also. The proposal, though not geared towards this 'problem', renders it non-existent to begin with and I personally think it actually gives a good compromise to both sides of that debate: you could potentially scan down the 'fearmongerer' and the spy can operate unseen if they so choose.

Remember: every player dedicated to intel gathering in scout ships is one less player that can be used effectively for attacking. This is neither an advantage or disadvantage, its how tactics work.

People are killed in WH not knowing about the aggressor's presence. Happens every hour. It's not unfair, it's zero security space in the depths of nowhere where the strongest will win every single time.

Now don't get me wrong, null and low should not be like WH space either - the "total removal of local" idea - for the fairly simple reason that among other things, that is a chief component of why WH space is what it is. It's supposed to be dangerous and, in your words, 'unfair'. Thing is, nothing in EvE is fair except whether or not you choose to undock.

Anyways, I'm not going psychological or game theory on this...the short is this: even with these mechanics, a defender will STILL know who the aggressor is and when they arrive by virtue of gathering intel. You reference R&K - prime example of intel gathering the way it ought to be.

Let's run the few scenarios:

1) Aggressor is covops fleet. Under OP mechanics, unless scout for defender is on grid at entry gate (which is entirely possible and, also, he can be undetected too) the covops fleet can fairly easily slip into defender target system and not be known until engagement. Sounds like the way stealth tactics are meant to work - there is a defense, but its a difficult to employ defense. On the flip side, covops ships are ewar centric - not dmg centric. They excel at harassment, not total loss.

2) Agressor is in normal fleet with cloaks. Defenders will see the fleet moving through entry systems - can't cloak in warp - and will have heads up, like usual.
-If aggressor is staging a trap in a system near to defender, it is possible for them to setup and be undetected through cloaking module if a scout wasn't present in the system when they arrived or passed through towards target system.
-At actual target system, aggressor will be seen in local the minute it warps - towards target or anywhere else - revealing its presence if it was somehow missed while warping through entry systems that are normally observed.
-If fleet has no cloaks, then the change in local is almost negligible - you will know they have entered system OR they are cloaked in next-door system because they left local. You have a error of intel "1" jump. You don't know which side of the gate they are on for certain.

3) Cyno Fleet. Cyno ship, if covops, is capable of penetrating defender target system undetected (like EX 1). Lighting Cyno naturally alerts defender system to the presence of an unknown (and thus probably enemy) cyno. Agressor jumps in and then proceeds to carry out its strategy of attack.
-Defender can D-Scan the cyno to see ship numbers and report what is needed to defend, as normal.
-Local will spike upon enemy warping, showing a definitive count (the Achilles heel you mention)...but not before.
-If the defender system has nobody in it...then it would have been a surprise attack under normal circumstance anyways.
-Who lights a cyno in your system and does let folks know they are doing it? Of course it's an enemy cyno!

Now if the cyno sneaking in really were a significant sticking point - I get the feeling from posts so far it is the ONLY sticking point on the OP proposal, perhaps the balance to this would be to restrict Covops to only using covops cynos? Would that help?

Also, you mention the 'social aspect of local' which CCP has referenced in the past...and I believe is a valid point. Local DOES exist in WH, it just doesn't track. This set of changes does not remove local and therefore keeps it in place for those who DO want to be seen and wish to communicate.