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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

First post First post First post
Author
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
#1281 - 2015-06-15 08:19:22 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:


Tatsuj Khan wrote:
Suggestion:
Make corporate wormhole BMs "public" just as gates are, and allow fleets to warp from WH to WH in a coherent group. Otherwise as the Dev proposal stands now, the fleet can't work together as they land because ships are strung out throughout the system. This allows the enemy to pick off small faster ships first as the landing fleet straggles in.

If wormhole BMs are made "public", it should significantly lessen the damage this nerf does to WH corp membership and fleet ops. I recall somewhere in the sov changes thread, devs stated that changes should enhance game play rather than add unnecessary difficulties and tedium.

This is a great suggestion. Building on it - allowing fleet warping to WH probe results could also work.
There are a couple of questions we'd like to thrash out and get more feedback on relating to power projection in WH space before we make a change like this.


Could a deployable "warp beacon" be a solution?
You anchor something in space that becomes visible throughout the system (like a cyno).
This would not be a copy of the existing mechanisms, but a new element of gameplay (please discuss).

A site would need to be prepared to work as a warp target (e.g. a scout would have to set up those "road signs" to allow fast travel through a WH chain).
However, this takes away some part of the sneakyness... other people might become aware that there is a position of interest and that someone might want to warp there in the future and interact with the beacon
(camp it, destroy it, misplace it, whatever...)
Solecist Punk
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1282 - 2015-06-15 08:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Punk
Syzygium wrote:
Solecist Punk wrote:
For a proper fleet of -10, who does more than be afk in station most of the time, this change is game breaking. You do not seem to have understanding of that, which is fine, but stop assuming you know better when you clearly don't.

I was -10 for 6 years (2009-2015) and CEO of a smallscale pirate corporation for several years and I don't agree with you.

Especially -10s and WH people are skilled enough to adapt quickly and benefit from their higher overall fleet movement and independent member activity compared to fleets of larger 0.0 groups who greatly rely on the FC and his commands.

This change will give smaller groups of skilled players an edge over large pulks of F1 drones and that alone makes it a good change. That it will lead to more important scout-roles even in larger fleets, offering people with low SP but high softskills jobs they can excel in instead of fitting meta-guns to a level III skilled BS hull just to add "more dps" to the fleet.

And you are just a lesser ganker like the rest of them. Your empty words mean nothing, because you do not even understand what I am talking about. Just because you were -10 does not mean you know what every -10 does or can do. What matters is that the relevant people (not you) understand that this breaks my gameplay and there is no way to properly adapt to it. I do not need to explain it to you, as you do not matter in the slightest. Hell, the amount of empty words in your post is embarassing. You should go into politics.

I will not respond in this thread any more, as the important parts have been set and done. None of you can go into this, because none of you plays like me. I can absolutely guarantee that. CCP can easily go through years of logs about Solstice Project and Solecist Project and find out all by themselves that this would completely break my fleets.

That is *all* that matters. I am not posting here to discuss with you, because you do not matter. Your opinions matter when it comes to the change, but not when it comes to what others say about that change. They especially do not matter when you do not understand what the other person is talking about and randomly trying to argue with people is completely silly and childish. (baltec, for example, who is attention whoring like a madman).


That's all there is to say. CCP, this breaks my gameplay and prevents me from ever again FCing a proer fleet of outlaws in highsec. It reduces my gameplay to all that of the lesser gankers and there *is* *nothing* I can do to adapt. I can happily SHOW YOU if you wish so, just throw me an eve-mail at Solecist Project.


Cheers.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1283 - 2015-06-15 08:33:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:


Ok Baltec you have had enough fun trolling this thread but you have ceased contributing anything of use at about page 2. Time to pack up your bat and ball and go welp a megathron (I have an old Baltec megathron for sale in YAO if you need a spare).



You think I'm trolling but our FC ships do infact all come with combat probes fitted. Think about this, the organisation that has effectively won null and owns a good number of the best FCs in the game has put forwards this idea to nerf fleets. We are calling to nerf our own fleets because they are too easy to run. This change is not a hard one to adapt to but it does remove one of the biggest advantages we have in a fight vs the highly disorganized rabble that is most of EVE.


Now you are just trolling. When did Manny join the CFC? He was quite enthusiastic about this early on the thread.

As for winning null sec so what? What is a minor inconvenience for the Imperium and its blob of ships is difficult for small gang and god fvcking awful in wormholes.

And still at the end if it all the justifications dribbled out by CCP don't pass muster when considering the wealth of real broken things to fix (obligatory fix POS's statement) or the broadly vaguely identified items this does "fix" bombers and probing.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Corben Arctus
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#1284 - 2015-06-15 09:40:45 UTC
Speed up the propagation of corp bookmarks, and I've no problem with this change.

It's still gonna suck for fleets made up of multiple corps. WTB fleet bookmark system.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1285 - 2015-06-15 09:56:04 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:


Ok Baltec you have had enough fun trolling this thread but you have ceased contributing anything of use at about page 2. Time to pack up your bat and ball and go welp a megathron (I have an old Baltec megathron for sale in YAO if you need a spare).



You think I'm trolling but our FC ships do infact all come with combat probes fitted. Think about this, the organisation that has effectively won null and owns a good number of the best FCs in the game has put forwards this idea to nerf fleets. We are calling to nerf our own fleets because they are too easy to run. This change is not a hard one to adapt to but it does remove one of the biggest advantages we have in a fight vs the highly disorganized rabble that is most of EVE.


Now you are just trolling. When did Manny join the CFC? He was quite enthusiastic about this early on the thread.

As for winning null sec so what? What is a minor inconvenience for the Imperium and its blob of ships is difficult for small gang and god fvcking awful in wormholes.

And still at the end if it all the justifications dribbled out by CCP don't pass muster when considering the wealth of real broken things to fix (obligatory fix POS's statement) or the broadly vaguely identified items this does "fix" bombers and probing.


Because having a dedicated scout is impossible to ask of a small gangRoll
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#1286 - 2015-06-15 09:56:22 UTC
65 pages in and the summary is basically:

WH:

Bookmarks are just too slow. Really they are, anything from 1 min to over 5 mins. It is a pain in the ares regardless of these changes. So a fix would be nice anyway. But with these changes it is needed.

Mixed corp fleets:

Again bookmarks. Alliance bookmarks is something everyone has wanted for some time. These changes do really need something like that fixed. Esp with the roll out of fozzieSov.

Bombers:

No idea why anyone thinks this would change bombers. I can only assume 99.9% of people who go on about bombers have never flown them. We have *never* used fleet warp for bomb runs. We have almost never used bookmarks. Someone flys to a perch and we use public warp to points for warp out, and its is never done with fleet warp. You decloak yourself, bomb yourself and warp off yourself. So ZERO change here. However i don't think CCP had any bomber effect intention here anyway.

baltec1:

Troll for 60 pages. Please Ignore.


Final thoughts:

Don't add tedium for no reason. Without some bookmark changes/fixes this adds a lot of tedium for no benefit.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#1287 - 2015-06-15 09:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Delt0r Garsk
double post

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#1288 - 2015-06-15 09:58:22 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Also want repair broadcasts to only be seen by the squad they are in so logi gets a nerf without having her nerf logistics ships.
Hahahaha!
The way power creep is going with more damage and alphas? Are you nuts?
which is in no small part a result of...? Take a guess.
Feeding the "I want crowd" Logi haven't changed in what? A decade? Now they are a problem? Tier 3s, T3s, etc while the T1s languish. Newbies keep having further and further to go and that is disheartening.

Utility > power.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1289 - 2015-06-15 10:03:55 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Also want repair broadcasts to only be seen by the squad they are in so logi gets a nerf without having her nerf logistics ships.
Hahahaha!
The way power creep is going with more damage and alphas? Are you nuts?
which is in no small part a result of...? Take a guess.
Feeding the "I want crowd" Logi haven't changed in what? A decade? Now they are a problem? Tier 3s, T3s, etc while the T1s languish. Newbies keep having further and further to go and that is disheartening.

Utility > power.


Logi has been a problem for years now.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1290 - 2015-06-15 10:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
It has been an interesting thread to watch. Many sov null people believe that their part of the game is the only important one and that anything that improves their gameplay should be implemented regardless of the effect on the rest of the game.

They are, of course, wrong and it is difficult to respect or take such a position seriously. Such extreme parochialism is embarrassing, frankly.

Personally, I do not understand the attraction of blob warfare but understand many others love it. I wish them luck and hope their game improves. Just not at the expense of everyone else's. EVE would be much poorer if it was a game of sov null only.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1291 - 2015-06-15 10:14:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


You think I'm trolling but our FC ships do infact all come with combat probes fitted. Think about this, the organisation that has effectively won null and owns a good number of the best FCs in the game has put forwards this idea to nerf fleets. We are calling to nerf our own fleets because they are too easy to run. This change is not a hard one to adapt to but it does remove one of the biggest advantages we have in a fight vs the highly disorganized rabble that is most of EVE.



so because you're overlord fc's have mastered fleet fights you want them nerfed so its harder for any upcoming/learning fc to engage in fleet fights? what a selfish thing to say

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#1292 - 2015-06-15 10:21:11 UTC
Solecist Punk wrote:

...random flames and butthurt...


That's all there is to say. CCP, this breaks my gameplay and prevents me from ever again FCing a proer fleet of outlaws in highsec. It reduces my gameplay to all that of the lesser gankers and there *is* *nothing* I can do to adapt. I can happily SHOW YOU if you wish so, just throw me an eve-mail at Solecist Project.

tbh, if your Thrasher-Ganks of capsules and noobships in Highsec are not longer possible, no none will cry a tear.

"FCing fleets of outlaws in highsec..." ... lol... and I really did expect to find something innovative or exciting after your rant.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1293 - 2015-06-15 10:23:44 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:



so because you're overlord fc's have mastered fleet fights you want them nerfed so its harder for any upcoming/learning fc to engage in fleet fights? what a selfish thing to say


That is like saying it was selfish of us to tell CCP they needed to nerf tracking titans. We stand to lose the most from this change as our tactics rely heavily upon one guy in the fleet doing nearly all the work.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1294 - 2015-06-15 10:26:16 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Solecist Punk wrote:

...random flames and butthurt...


That's all there is to say. CCP, this breaks my gameplay and prevents me from ever again FCing a proer fleet of outlaws in highsec. It reduces my gameplay to all that of the lesser gankers and there *is* *nothing* I can do to adapt. I can happily SHOW YOU if you wish so, just throw me an eve-mail at Solecist Project.

tbh, if your Thrasher-Ganks of capsules and noobships in Highsec are not longer possible, no none will cry a tear.

"FCing fleets of outlaws in highsec..." ... lol... and I really did expect to find something innovative or exciting after your rant.


Best part of this is they are ranting at the corp that invented every tactic and ship fitting they currently use for ganking.
Natya Mebelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1295 - 2015-06-15 10:56:22 UTC
So the idea is to decrease surprise time by default and put in more pilot effort to get good results. I can get behind that idea and like it.

So... corporation bookmarks would mean every corpmember in the fleet will follow into warp while the rest stays behind. If you exclude all bookmarks by default, then you are basically contradicting your own statement.
Will you ship alliance bookmarks when Aegis goes live?

This looks like it will boil down to another question of "will CCP release another half-finished product".
If CCP can make proper adjustments and inclusions of Corporation / alliance bookmarks to be executed, then I think this will be an interesting change.
If they exclude all bookmark warping by default... then not, and more people will be leaving.

Death by a thousand paper cuts. There are only so many things a player will accept happening to their game until their discontent about it is greater than the social bonds they have in the game.

So please CCP... work on corporate / alliance bookmark inclusion for warps. Do not contradict your own statements. Please.
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#1296 - 2015-06-15 11:06:44 UTC
They should rather work on Fleet Bookmarks that only exist temporarily as long as the fleet exists but are updated for every fleet member every some seconds.

Of course still excluding them from fleet warping or only allow that with a spool-up delay, but every member can use them on his own instantly as soon as they are available to speed up fleet movement.
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#1297 - 2015-06-15 11:19:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:



so because you're overlord fc's have mastered fleet fights you want them nerfed so its harder for any upcoming/learning fc to engage in fleet fights? what a selfish thing to say


That is like saying it was selfish of us to tell CCP they needed to nerf tracking titans. We stand to lose the most from this change as our tactics rely heavily upon one guy in the fleet doing nearly all the work.


An fleet is an co-play between a lot off inviduals in big scale I suppose. Everyone have their jobs, like in bigger battels you need to keep your eyes on the overview to make sure you can broadcast fast enough. if you're not actively doing that you more than likely going to die. so, yea. also logi anchor is another one that have to do work, and everyone have to do their part.
Dermeisen
#1298 - 2015-06-15 11:33:00 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
In its current state, the bookmark system just does not and cannot provide an acceptable substitute for the fleet warp mechanic.
As such, at least squad warp needs to remain.


This comment is based on a misunderstanding Jack, and you're right the bookmark system just is not and cannot provide an acceptable substitute for the fleet warp mechanic.

In actuality fleet warp is too efficient, it's stifling, suppressing diversity. It does make FCing more difficult and this is an issue for these vital instigators, but hey ho fame should be a bit of a curse. This will also make casually policing your bit of null space more difficult I know because the time to target is lengthened.

If you can require fights then commitment comes more out of the need to defend and not to hide: with "blue balls" or the "no fun" tactic of, I hope, the past.

In fleet combat it is enhancing the difficulty of, as in Judo getting a good grip, the initial engagement or closing with the enemy.

In my opinion this will also create a more dynamic arena around fighting for entosis control points.

TO the wormholers you need something to make this pill less bitter and I hope that's addressed. However I can't say I see this as anything more than an inconvenience that you'll get over or work round.

TO the multiboxers, especially the cool ones like the provi pipe campers, who do it with three clients or more but with no software automation: like the Aussies in No Not Believing - your game has gotten even more tricky and that sucks but at least gates are still warp-able.

TO the gankers chasing killboard stats, boohoo.

TO the multibox miners, CCP needs to look at your game. I'd love to see a big buff in solo mining. I'd love to see a mini game play tractoring in rocks some area effects around mining that effected stuff: combat !! radiation clouds that effect lock distances or visibility by proximity. Hiding in mine fields could be a thing, ok perhaps I'm dreaming.

TO FC's in Brave you guys are the coolest, I guess the dojo needs a new scouting class - which it might already have as far as I know.

"Not the Boreworms!"

Dermeisen
#1299 - 2015-06-15 11:47:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:



so because you're overlord fc's have mastered fleet fights you want them nerfed so its harder for any upcoming/learning fc to engage in fleet fights? what a selfish thing to say


That is like saying it was selfish of us to tell CCP they needed to nerf tracking titans. We stand to lose the most from this change as our tactics rely heavily upon one guy in the fleet doing nearly all the work.


Or indeed like saying of soccer: because some teams are masters of defensive play we should to make football into a series of penalty shootouts. Damn I find myself respecting the goons more and more these days, it's a highly unnerving experience.

In any case I hope we can all be relied upon to be selfish, I know I can!

"Not the Boreworms!"

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#1300 - 2015-06-15 11:55:49 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Solecist Punk wrote:

...random flames and butthurt...


That's all there is to say. CCP, this breaks my gameplay and prevents me from ever again FCing a proer fleet of outlaws in highsec. It reduces my gameplay to all that of the lesser gankers and there *is* *nothing* I can do to adapt. I can happily SHOW YOU if you wish so, just throw me an eve-mail at Solecist Project.

tbh, if your Thrasher-Ganks of capsules and noobships in Highsec are not longer possible, no none will cry a tear.


In other words you've never actually FCed at -10 in highsec, so you have literally no insight into what this means for -10 highsec fleets.