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An Idea on Marauders
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-06-13 19:09:39 UTC
Marauders are extremely good with the introduction of Bastion...

However, they're still not that popular in less secure areas of space, due to their large sig, lack of mobility, and being stuck in bastion for 1min cycles.
These areas of space would, more specifically be, non-secure SOV, WH space, and most of low sec.

All that said, I would think that (based on their description) these ships should be given something that allows them to better perform in all areas, without making them OP.


This idea was based on watching a player performing PVE in a Curse, though he and we are aware it's not the best ship for PVE.

With that in mind, what if we gave Marauders immunity to D-scan?
These ships are extremely easy to probe down, so it's not like they're invulnerable, but it would give them more survivability that could potentially give them enough time to break bastion and GTFO..




Thoughts?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#2 - 2015-06-13 19:29:39 UTC
To compensate you would need to get rid of local in null sec and up the bastion cycle time to 2 minutes. Other than that, it would be pretty sweet.
Iain Cariaba
#3 - 2015-06-13 19:35:15 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Thoughts?

I think you need to do more research before making assumptions, and basing bad ideas off those assumptions.

Golem
Vargur
Paladin
Kronos

I see lots and lots of lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole activity using marauders. The facts don't back up your assumptions.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#4 - 2015-06-13 19:48:14 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Thoughts?

I think you need to do more research before making assumptions, and basing bad ideas off those assumptions.

Golem
Vargur
Paladin
Kronos

I see lots and lots of lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole activity using marauders. The facts don't back up your assumptions.



I'm not sure what your links are trying to say. It looks like you are saying 3 - 5 get ganked per day and 1-4 are in a fleet that gets some kills each day. 1 marauder in a 30 man fleet putting up 10 pos module kills counts as 1 marauder being used. Once you pick through the provided data - you're proving they aren't popular pvp boats (low number being on kills) and they aren't being used for pve all that much (based on a daily average of 5 being ganked).

You put up the right links, you're just way off on your conclusions.
Iain Cariaba
#5 - 2015-06-13 20:02:37 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Thoughts?

I think you need to do more research before making assumptions, and basing bad ideas off those assumptions.

Golem
Vargur
Paladin
Kronos

I see lots and lots of lowsec, nullsec, and wormhole activity using marauders. The facts don't back up your assumptions.



I'm not sure what your links are trying to say. It looks like you are saying 3 - 5 get ganked per day and 1-4 are in a fleet that gets some kills each day. 1 marauder in a 30 man fleet putting up 10 pos module kills counts as 1 marauder being used. Once you pick through the provided data - you're proving they aren't popular pvp boats (low number being on kills) and they aren't being used for pve all that much (based on a daily average of 5 being ganked).

You put up the right links, you're just way off on your conclusions.

When you cherry pick just the data you want out of the provided information, you can prove the sky is neon purple and grass is pink.

Sure, there's some structure bashing going on there, and why the hell not? Marauders make great ships for bashing structures with their high dps in bastion, and not a whole lot of need to move for a while.

OP's premise is that marauders aren't that popular in less secure space, and I was merely pointing out that he's wrong. They're just as popular as any other multi-billion isk ship out there.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6 - 2015-06-13 20:07:32 UTC
This actually isn't as mad as I expected it to be, possibly a highslot module or a tweak to bastion?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2015-06-13 20:09:36 UTC
Most people dont like to pvp in multi billion isk ships, even fewer will pvp in anything larger than a cruiser.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#8 - 2015-06-13 20:14:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Most people dont like to pvp in multi billion isk ships, even fewer will pvp in anything larger than a cruiser.



Come at me bro. I know you're not afraid to put a few potatoes on the table. Meet me at the sun in half an hour.



Just spitballing here, but make one of the marauder super powers immunity in local. Now THAT would be totally awesome. That would take them to the top of my pvp boat list. I could see where pve folks would also be in a good spot.

(sorry to hijack the no dscan, but local immunity would be totally super)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-06-13 20:23:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Most people dont like to pvp in multi billion isk ships, even fewer will pvp in anything larger than a cruiser.


The intent isn't directed at PVP, though it does have a positive addition towards PVP.

The intent is to make them more valuable in insecure PVE content, which is part of their description.

I'm on a cell phone, so I'm not going to copy paste it.
With Bastion, they have become a top notch ship for PVE content, however, their lack of mobility makes them a lackluster choice when compared to any other PVE capable BS, specifically in potentially hostile territory.

In regards to another comment up the list, yes, Marauders are used in PVP and PVE outside of high sec.
However, their effectiveness in PVE is limited to Bastion, and more specifically, secure space.
Low, wh, and null doesn't mean the space is insecure. With proper Intel and security, you'll be fine.
That said, I'm speaking more specifically about uncontrolled territory, such as NPC pirate space, small corp WHs, and low sec outside of relative player control.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2015-06-13 20:51:24 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Most people dont like to pvp in multi billion isk ships, even fewer will pvp in anything larger than a cruiser.


The intent isn't directed at PVP, though it does have a positive addition towards PVP.

The intent is to make them more valuable in insecure PVE content, which is part of their description.

I'm on a cell phone, so I'm not going to copy paste it.
With Bastion, they have become a top notch ship for PVE content, however, their lack of mobility makes them a lackluster choice when compared to any other PVE capable BS, specifically in potentially hostile territory.

In regards to another comment up the list, yes, Marauders are used in PVP and PVE outside of high sec.
However, their effectiveness in PVE is limited to Bastion, and more specifically, secure space.
Low, wh, and null doesn't mean the space is insecure. With proper Intel and security, you'll be fine.
That said, I'm speaking more specifically about uncontrolled territory, such as NPC pirate space, small corp WHs, and low sec outside of relative player control.


The issue they have with pve is that the vindi can do a better job at killing NPCs in anoms and because it doesn't have bastion it can warp to the next site faster than a kronos.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-06-13 21:28:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Most people dont like to pvp in multi billion isk ships, even fewer will pvp in anything larger than a cruiser.


The intent isn't directed at PVP, though it does have a positive addition towards PVP.

The intent is to make them more valuable in insecure PVE content, which is part of their description.

I'm on a cell phone, so I'm not going to copy paste it.
With Bastion, they have become a top notch ship for PVE content, however, their lack of mobility makes them a lackluster choice when compared to any other PVE capable BS, specifically in potentially hostile territory.

In regards to another comment up the list, yes, Marauders are used in PVP and PVE outside of high sec.
However, their effectiveness in PVE is limited to Bastion, and more specifically, secure space.
Low, wh, and null doesn't mean the space is insecure. With proper Intel and security, you'll be fine.
That said, I'm speaking more specifically about uncontrolled territory, such as NPC pirate space, small corp WHs, and low sec outside of relative player control.


The issue they have with pve is that the vindi can do a better job at killing NPCs in anoms and because it doesn't have bastion it can warp to the next site faster than a kronos.


Which is part of why I'm suggesting they be given this ability as a balancing factor.
There are many reasons to pick any other ship over a marauder.
Ewar immunity is the only reason to pick a marauder over anything else.
Give it d-scan immunity and it will be much more competitive.
Market Wizard
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-06-13 22:17:57 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Sure, there's some structure bashing going on there, and why the hell not? Marauders make great ships for bashing structures with their high dps in bastion, and not a whole lot of need to move for a while.


I think you need to read through the bastion bonuses or go fly a Marauder for a bit. All four Marauders do just as much dps in Bastion as they do out of Bastion. The bonus that gets applied to them in Bastion is range and tank. This allows short range weapons to hit farther and long range weapons to hit out the the lock limit, as well as give them a great active tank. There is nothing in there about getting better damage, nor do I think they should become mini-dreadnaughts.

As far as Dscan immunity, its a no from me. That sounds strictly like a recon attribute which Combat Recons have, Marauders sound like tactical placement boats for large fights with the Bastion being one min long and the MJD having a cooldown of 56 secs.

The only problem that arises from that is the ability to scram them down during jump which leaves them sitting like a gun turret unable to move or do anything but soak damage. If they got the ability to jump while under scram they would hold their tactical placement role and would be the only ship to use the MJD to full power. Of course this new ability should come at a cost, I will leave everyone or CCP to find out what they think is fair for that.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#13 - 2015-06-13 23:49:57 UTC
I'm sorry, but having used marauders for PvE as well as (involuntary) PvP in high and low, I think that there is absolutely no need for such a change. Not quite willing to try to get them back out of null because of the potential issues with landing in a gate camp exiting a system.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-06-13 23:59:46 UTC
Market Wizard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Sure, there's some structure bashing going on there, and why the hell not? Marauders make great ships for bashing structures with their high dps in bastion, and not a whole lot of need to move for a while.


I think you need to read through the bastion bonuses or go fly a Marauder for a bit. All four Marauders do just as much dps in Bastion as they do out of Bastion. The bonus that gets applied to them in Bastion is range and tank. This allows short range weapons to hit farther and long range weapons to hit out the the lock limit, as well as give them a great active tank. There is nothing in there about getting better damage, nor do I think they should become mini-dreadnaughts.

As far as Dscan immunity, its a no from me. That sounds strictly like a recon attribute which Combat Recons have, Marauders sound like tactical placement boats for large fights with the Bastion being one min long and the MJD having a cooldown of 56 secs.

The only problem that arises from that is the ability to scram them down during jump which leaves them sitting like a gun turret unable to move or do anything but soak damage. If they got the ability to jump while under scram they would hold their tactical placement role and would be the only ship to use the MJD to full power. Of course this new ability should come at a cost, I will leave everyone or CCP to find out what they think is fair for that.


Being able to MJD when scrammed, especially with a CD bonus is extremely powerful. This would basically make them immune to any type of warp disruption.

James Baboli wrote:
I'm sorry, but having used marauders for PvE as well as (involuntary) PvP in high and low, I think that there is absolutely no need for such a change. Not quite willing to try to get them back out of null because of the potential issues with landing in a gate camp exiting a system.

I think you're giving d-scan immunity too much credit, especially in the case of Marauders, and Especially when you consider Bastion increases sig radius.

See, all it would take is to drop combat probes and you'd likely know what type of ship they were with one scan.
Their large sig makes them extremely easy to scan down.
This would just give them some security from people that don't think to probe.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#15 - 2015-06-14 02:20:54 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Marauders are extremely good with the introduction of Bastion...

However, they're still not that popular in less secure areas of space, due to their large sig, lack of mobility, and being stuck in bastion for 1min cycles.
These areas of space would, more specifically be, non-secure SOV, WH space, and most of low sec.

All that said, I would think that (based on their description) these ships should be given something that allows them to better perform in all areas, without making them OP.


This idea was based on watching a player performing PVE in a Curse, though he and we are aware it's not the best ship for PVE.

With that in mind, what if we gave Marauders immunity to D-scan?
These ships are extremely easy to probe down, so it's not like they're invulnerable, but it would give them more survivability that could potentially give them enough time to break bastion and GTFO..




Thoughts?


No, just give it up. Marauders are just fine.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#16 - 2015-06-14 02:22:00 UTC
Market Wizard wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Sure, there's some structure bashing going on there, and why the hell not? Marauders make great ships for bashing structures with their high dps in bastion, and not a whole lot of need to move for a while.


I think you need to read through the bastion bonuses or go fly a Marauder for a bit. All four Marauders do just as much dps in Bastion as they do out of Bastion. The bonus that gets applied to them in Bastion is range and tank. This allows short range weapons to hit farther and long range weapons to hit out the the lock limit, as well as give them a great active tank. There is nothing in there about getting better damage, nor do I think they should become mini-dreadnaughts.

underlined the important bit there, you get better application and can use your short range ammo further out, its not a direct dps buff but in effect it can be sort of seen as a soft buff,
i think this is what he was driving at

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#17 - 2015-06-14 02:27:38 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

I think you're giving d-scan immunity too much credit, especially in the case of Marauders, and Especially when you consider Bastion increases sig radius.

See, all it would take is to drop combat probes and you'd likely know what type of ship they were with one scan.
Their large sig makes them extremely easy to scan down.
This would just give them some security from people that don't think to probe.


Bastion mode does not increase signature radius. Nor is their signature radius that high compared to other battleships. It's their sensor strength that sucks - a Kronos has half the sensor strength of a Vindicator. That makes them relatively easier to probe down.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-06-14 02:38:58 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

I think you're giving d-scan immunity too much credit, especially in the case of Marauders, and Especially when you consider Bastion increases sig radius.

See, all it would take is to drop combat probes and you'd likely know what type of ship they were with one scan.
Their large sig makes them extremely easy to scan down.
This would just give them some security from people that don't think to probe.


Bastion mode does not increase signature radius. Nor is their signature radius that high compared to other battleships. It's their sensor strength that sucks - a Kronos has half the sensor strength of a Vindicator. That makes them relatively easier to probe down.


My bad, it's mass that goes up...
Sespria Secantus
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-06-14 03:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sespria Secantus
Still I see nothing wrong with giving the Marauders a little something extra to help their survival chances when doing any activity solo outside High-Sec, as they are literally to powerful to stay encaged doing lev 4 missions in High-Sec.

D-scan immunity does seem like a recon-like attribute which aren't what Marauders are and since their greatest weakness is neuts so a better proposal would be if CCP add 70% resistance against enemy neutralizer/vampire effect while in bastion mode.

That or if CCP introduce another bastion-like module with all the same effects as the original bastion module but in place of ewar immunity it gets enemy neutralization/vampiric immunity. When this new bastion module is activated, the marauder can't use its weapons. It would basically give the Marauder time buying power until reinforcements arrives. Both bastion modules will fit in the high slot and have the same fitting requirements and only one can be activated at one time.

If that idea doesn't suffice then the Marauders need scram immunity while the MJD is activating or an insta-jumping ability when the MJD has activated.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#20 - 2015-06-14 03:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
I'd welcome a change to make them more reasonable to use for PVE in hostile areas but I don't think d-scan immunity is that change.

How about a sharp increase in sensor strength when Bastion Mode is active?

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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